Hey thanks Butch.  To be clear though, I sure don't want to "match" any particular sound.  Like any guitarist, I want my own thing.  I hear the tone in my head, and I have an idea of where it might come from and that's where my Mesa obsession kicks in. 

I will be sure the speaker cab is right.

But you guys are all making a dent here and I appreciate your thoughts.   I've pretty much decided a Dual Rectifier is not in my future.  I just can't justify the power and volume issues it would bring up for my particular application.  And I don't think it's needed anyway. 

So, I figure a nice compromise may be the Mesa 5:25 (el-84's) or 5:50 (6l6's).  That's 5W or 25/50W switchable.  I can get this with a single 1x12 or dual speaker 2x12 cabinet.  Obviously the 2x12 would sound better jamming, while I imagine the 1x12 will sound better recording.  Since I'm mainly recording, the 1x12 is what I'm interested in.

The tone controls and audio design really is completely different from the Dual Recto and I'm not sure how I feel about that part yet.  But hey, the "sound" is what counts and if this little amp has my tone, I'll probably get it.

If not, I'll probably do what you guys are suggesting.  I'm committed to a low volume solution, so low wattage tube amps are most likely in my future.  Now it's just a matter of getting past the brand names and signature models and on to what actually sounds good, or right. 

run the speaker or line out into a Palmer PDI-09.

that'll work.

Thanks Batsbrew.  I'm going to try mic'ing for a bit though first.  If it turns out as dismal as it did before, then you can bet I'll be checking those out.  

In case anyone is the least bit curious...I did finally settle on a Mesa Rectoverb.  It's a 50 Watt tube combo with a 1x12 speaker.  The 5:25 and 5:50 did not have a metal sound to save their lives.  That's about the only sound they couldn't really achieve very well.  The rectoverb however had a terrific tight, high gain sound and the channel tone controls are the same as the dual rectifier.   It sounds so good on the clean channel too - very rich and full. 

Very excited about getting this amp home.  Just waiting on the insurance money now, and of course, they're already dreaming up excuses to lower their payout...

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BTW....a guy came in the other day with a Line 6 / Bogner Spider Valve Head and delivered a CRUSHING hard rock tone.

I should post a clip

I'd never heard that amp before and I was skeptical because of the Line 6 affilitation.  I was quite pleased....actually reminded me a bit of a Mesa Lonestar - which, by the way - if you've never heard, you're missing out.  Just amazing punch and clarity with just the right amount of overdrive....huge and heavy, but still able to sing out the notes of each individual string.

my mesa sounds killer thru my palmer pdi-09.

i've got 29 years of micing my mesa to compare against!


that said, moving AIR is always the best choice.

mike_mccue


"did you try all or any of the three amps with a Rat or Tube Screamer in front of them?"

Is that a "No"?

Sorry, yes that's a no.  I don't own either of those units and I didn't even think of it anyway.  I'm still a little wary of pedals with all the claims flying around about tone loss and all that - then considering some of them are digital, changing my signal from A to D and back to A again - with all of that, it's hard for me to trust what they're doing to the sound.
 
I know what you're thinking..."dude, i told you to torture that output transformer and that a good pedal will get you what you want".  And actually, the guy at the store said he used a Tube Screamer with his Mesa too.  I'll probably get one, one day, but I only have enough funds to secure the core components right now.   That means DAW, guitar, amp, mixer, compressor, a few cables...I'll have to save to get the rest of the toys.   So, I wanted to be sure I had an amp that sounds great by my standards, by itself.   This one does that, and so much more. 
 
The 5W express models were cool, and quite capable of most sounds, but they just didn't have the "flavor" that the rectifier had.  Maybe that was psychological, but they just didn't excite me one bit. 
 
But hey, this isn't a total loss.  You've managed to convince me to mic again, and I've happily reduced my power expectations to 50W.  That's pretty damn good.  My wife hasn't convinced me of much of anything at all in 20 freaking years!  (Except that she's the only one that'll have me)

I think there is some really good advice here. Not all small combos are created the same, so you really need to find out what works for you.

A champ won't do metal when it's cranked...it would be way too loose...however, it will do metal with a good pedal infront of it. In your case you have to remember, that a good recorded sound is not only the source, but the box it's in, and the room too. Before you pick amps, sizing them appropriately to your room (wattage/volume) is very important.

Many "dark" sounding amps probably won't record to well for the average joe; at least that's been my experience. Tube combos around 5-10ish watts lend themselves well to home recording, and at least in my limited experience 12" speakers are the most versitile.

The thing with metal type guitar, it has to be well defined AND distorted...and most average tube amps cranked up don't really offer that unless they were designed for it. But you still can do a higher wattage 10-15 watt amp and keep the distortion out of the tubes instead. You'll still get the "ride" out of the amp, but keep the fizz and flabbly bass out. Just keep the amp at a resonable level (like 1/2) and your golden with the right pedal.

I did a few tunes that needed defined distortion, and recording the amp dimed had me chasing my tail for a good sound. I've had GREAT results with a little 10W parallel 6V6 and a fuzz in front of it for heavy and defined "chugging".

I personally think you'll hate the Mesa preamp once you get it. I went down the tweaker style set-up many years back and it is such a waste of time in the long run. Having so many tones at your fingertips can drive you mad, when all along one good sound will do the job for more things you can imagine. I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather have 1 knob to turn than 10. If I need a different tone, I'll play differently, or use a different guitar for the part.

Interesting thread.  I just got an Orange Tiny Terror and am in love with the overdrive on it.

I'll share this...probably THE most useful bit of advice for mic'ing and amp I've heard, and works great.

Prop the '57 on the grille how you want it for the best sound first. Then open another track, and flip the phase on it for your KSM. Move the KSM around until you get the thinnest, coldest sound. Then flip the phase back. Super easy, super quick, and great results!

When using 2 mics, the hardest thing to get right is phasing the mics correctly, this method really reduces phase cancellation.

mike_mccue


The signal chain is guitar>cord>amp>speaker. No extra *stuff*

http://www.harmoniccycle.com/hc/sounds/mp3/GCBlues/A%20Slow%20Blues%2004a.mp3

http://www.harmoniccycle.com/hc/sounds/mp3/GCBlues/Funky%20Mambo%2008a3.mp3

I'm a big fan of using one mic. I wanted to see if the SM57s could grab some sparkle so I recorded in stereo. I didn't want to worry about phase issues so I used a near coincident X/Y array.

best regards,
mike

So, can you elaborate on this "coincident X/Y array"?  I'm not sure what that means.
 
That brings up a question I hadn't thought about until you made that last statement...if I'm recording with one mic, I still have to worry about phase cancellation issues?  
 
I guess I was under the impression that I only had to worry about phase issues if I'm using two or more mic's at once.  And how come we don't have to worry about this when using a DI?  (or do we?) I guess I'm not understanding what it is about mic'ing that introduces phase problems.   Obviously I'm going to google this in about 30 seconds, but I like to hear from the experts here.
 
 

Ron Vogel
 
I'll share this...probably THE most useful bit of advice for mic'ing and amp I've heard, and works great.

Prop the '57 on the grille how you want it for the best sound first. Then open another track, and flip the phase on it for your KSM. Move the KSM around until you get the thinnest, coldest sound. Then flip the phase back. Super easy, super quick, and great results!

When using 2 mics, the hardest thing to get right is phasing the mics correctly, this method really reduces phase cancellation.

 
Thanks Ron, I will definitely try this. 
 
 

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