Mesa Boogie Direct Recording Preamp for Guitar

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If it helps any, I'm in Houston.  You're welcome to come over and put it through the paces.  I might even sell you mine......

For what it's worth...I'm not CRAZY picky when it comes to distorted guitar sounds.  Especially in "metal".  EVERY guitar sound known to man has existed in that genre.  Rarely have I listened and thought.....eww....that sucks.

Just sometimes it's not FOR ME.   That doesn't mean it "sucks".....

I could get a direct sound that I could live with.  I just prefer to start with a live amp/speaker.  And it usually ends there.  When I listened back to a demo I did a few months ago with my Mark IV, I thought to myself....DAMN!  THAT GUITAR SOUNDS KILLER!!

Batbrew's sound is pretty good and he's one hell of a player.  His sound suits his playing style very well.  I don't play anything like Batsbrew, and I honestly belive his sound wouldn't work for me.  It's all subjective in the end.

I CAN tell you that the Mesa Recto-Pre does fairly well with pedals in front of it, just like an amp.  So.....it COULD be that the Mesa and a pile of different pedals could get you direct in a way that makes your day.

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Well, I'll tell you what, you two are making me re-think this cabinet mic'ing thing.

How realistic is a smaller speaker set up?  A Mesa head driving a single speaker, type of solution?  I'm trying to work around the sheer volume of a 4-12 cabinet maxed out.  Would I still attain the precious high volume Mesa sound by mic'ing a single speaker? 

I've heard, from others, that practice amps are among the best for audio recording.  I have no experience with that, however. 

I've also heard some amazing guitar tone from cheap little practice amps miked up. 

Don't let the size of the amp fool ya.... my favorite amp ...out of all the ones I've used through the years in all the  bands I've played in has been my little 22watt Studio Boogie.  I like it because I can crank it on stage to get that sweet sound and still not have bleeding ears. It has a line out if I need the volume..... and I have done that too.... running to a Carvin power amp and then into 2 4x12 cabs....

don't let the little ones fool you....

skullsession

ParanoiA


Well, I'll tell you what, you two are making me re-think this cabinet mic'ing thing.

How realistic is a smaller speaker set up?  A Mesa head driving a single speaker, type of solution?  I'm trying to work around the sheer volume of a 4-12 cabinet maxed out.  Would I still attain the precious high volume Mesa sound by mic'ing a single speaker? 

I've heard, from others, that practice amps are among the best for audio recording.  I have no experience with that, however. 

 
Sure man!  I actually run my Mark IV through a single 12" speaker cab....Eminence speaker. 
 
 

No kidding...well do you add more load with something else too?  A guitar player here at work keeps telling me I need a DI Load Box or something if I'm going to drive a single speaker from a Mesa head. 

For the most part I tend to side with folks that still stick microphones in front of speaker cabinets... all else being roughly the same that is my first stab.

I have tried all sorts of emulators, software and hardware, and so far all I can say is that sometimes I get really cool sounds, but they seldom sound like a microphone stuck in front of a speaker.

I do have one amplifier with a direct output that gets so awfully close I use it sometimes even when I don't have to - it's an older Groove Tubes product called the STP-G, and it gets really really close to the sound you get when you use a speaker and a microphone. I think most audio geeks could still tell the difference, but the general public might be fooled.

In addition, I have the old H&K Cream Machine and Blues Master amplifiers, and while they won't fool anyone into thinking that I used air to record, they sound great.

Lastly, of the emulators/modelers I've tried I'd give the highest marks to the Adrennalinn - the Vox and Marshall models are scary cool.

I got your back!

The output of many amplifiers is designed to work properly only when it has a load connected across it. Simple version goes something like this:
when a load is connected across the output it draws current, up to the maximum current that the amplifier can deliver. If you remove the load no current is drawn. That can be really bad for some output designs, because the amplifier still wants to deliver the power, and if current goes to zero then voltage goes to infinity, well, in the real world, the maximum voltage that the supply can deliver. That can cook things that ought not to be cooked.

The complex version of that is too much typing!

So, in a studio setting you have a couple of choices, as we've been discussing.

You can drive a big cabinet with lots of loudspeakers, where the cabinet is wired to present a specific load (usually 8 ohms, maybe 16 ohms, less often 4 ohms) to the amplifier output. The power is divided, pretty much equally, between the speakers, so if you have a 100W amplifier you can get away with four 25 watt speakers.

You can take that same amplifier and connect it to a single speaker in a suitable cabinet. Now you do have to be aware of both the impedance of the speaker (4, 8, or 16 ohms) and the power handling capability of the speaker. If you deliver 100 watts into a 25 watt speaker it won't last very long. And, the single speaker needs to have an impedance that the amplifier can drive.

You could insert some form of power attenuator in between the amplifier and the speaker cabinet, but some folks don't like the sound of them.

Or you can pick up a direct output - and yes there are a couple of ways to do this too!

The old way is to insert a transformer between the amplifier and the speaker cabinet. A sample of the speaker signal is then delivered to the recording input.

Some amplifiers provide a separate direct output that is derived from somewhere in the amplifier. This can sound good or bad, but it never sounds quite like a real speaker, at least to me.

Which brings us to the question at hand.

IF you use a direct box that connects between the amplifier and speaker then you must connect the speaker, otherwise it is the same as the no-load situation, and it can damage the amplifier. There were a couple of direct boxes that included dummy loads, but I haven't seen one in a long time.

IF you use the direct output from the amplifier then you have to read the instructions. Some amplifiers with these sorts of outputs have a way to operate without driving a real load, and some don't.

Make sense?

wst3
 
Make sense?

 
Well, mostly.  The only part I got a little confused on was the "Direct Out" part of it, since I've never used a "load" type DI Box, just the "line out" kind - preamp signal I'm assuming.
 
But since I'm ditching direct out for mic'ing for now, in order to take full advantage of a tube amp, I'm more concerned with the first part of your post.
 
It looks to me like I'm going to have to be particularly careful about my amp head wattage and impedance and the speakers I hook up to it.  I can't just hook up a 25W speaker to a 100W head and turn it up to 10. 
 
So, maybe I should consider this when I purchase a head and get something more in line with the kind of speaker cab I expect to use. 
 
I still see an issue with an overpowered head driving a single speaker.  My only concern is how I deal with the inevitable power mismatch.  You've provided some suggestions above, for instance the power attenuator, but this just re-introduces more sound degrading issues I was trying to avoid by ditching direct out recording.
 
Going to have to give this some more thought...
 
By the way, I appreciate you and everybody else taking the time to help me.  Thanks a bunch.
 

Mike
 
My comment about over loading the Fender Champs Output Transformer (which is designed for a 3.2 to 4 ohm load) with a 2 ohm load was intended to suggest that the sound you get with that setup is pretty much the sound of Heavy metal. You get all those funky metallic harmonic chirps and stuff... you can hear the output tranny in full saturation and imagine that you are nearing a literal meltdown.

Try it... you'll see ;-)

I can see some audio tests like this in my future if this works out for me.  The last head I purchased was in 1995, my Marshall Valvestate.  Before that I owned a crappy ole Crate.  At 39 years of age, this will be my first real, all tube, fairly expensive amp head.  This will probably be a lot of fun. 

Ewww....Valvestate.  I had one of those back in the mid/late 90's.  It just got loud....never got good.

Funny...stuck it in the closet for about 5 years and then decided to throw it up on Craigslist since it was obviously not going to get any use next to the tube amps I had started buying.  I sold it for the exact same price I paid for it new.  Couldn't believe it.

As far as power matching....the Mark IV is rated at about 85 watts, and the speaker I'm using I believe is a 70 watt speaker.  Works pretty well.....and still gets damn loud when I need it to.

Everything I'm about to say is purely opinion:
 
Good guitar tone comes from a good guitar, through a good all tube amp, a good speaker cab, into a good mic.  You can't get good tone without "moving some air".  Pods, simulators, software amps...don't waste your time.
 
I totaly agree with a low powered tube amp and a 1x12 cab and a mic.  Once it is all set up, cover it with sofa cushions and blankets to cut down on the noise and let 'er rip!  Be careful not to let the amp overheat.
 
My Marshall TSL 100 has a "speaker compensated direct out".  No thank you.  There is no power tube saturation and no moving air.
 
I have a Weber Mass attenuator.  With careful tweaking, you can get power tube saturation with reduced volume, but it will not be "bedroom quiet".
 
Aint nothing like the real thing baby!

Guitarhacker
don't let the little ones fool you....

That's just what Jeff Beck said in Guitar Player mag a couple of months ago. He prefers to crank a smaller amp, and says Stevie Ray drooled over his tone. Who am I to argue with players like those guys?

Hi, ParanoiA,
 

Are either of you guys metal fans? How about more modern metal like Slipknot or Mudvein? I actually don't care for the music generated by those modern metal acts at all - but I love their sound. Is that the kind of sound you guys are saying I can get out of a low wattage tube amp? I guess what I'm saying is, it's hard to just dismiss the sound of a particular amp that I know I love, the Mesa, in trade for a guitar amp solution that's all about mixing and matching amps and speakers that I know absolutely nothing about. I'm just not convinced a 10 Watt Fender amp is going to sound more like modern metal. I think it's still going to sound like a Fender trying to sound like modern metal.

 
I'm not a huge fan of metal but I do listen to some on occasion.  I'm not up on the most cutting edge metal bands/styles, though, so I can't really speak intelligently on whether it's possible to get the sound you're after with a small amp and the appropriate pedals.  My guess is that it can be done.  Perhaps there are some small amps available that are built for high-gain/low volume.  Certainly, there are small recording amps available that are way different than small Fenders.  It's worth looking into.  And don't forget that you'll probably have to use pedals to help out. 
 
Obviously, you would really like to have the amp you love and I can sure relate to that.  But I was under the impression that it was important for you to keep the volume to very modest levels for recording.  It's possible that the Dual Rectifier might *record* just fine at low volume if you set the controls right and use the right cabinet, mic and mic techniques.  And, if it doesn't work out you've still got your Dual Rectifier.  ;>)
 
I feel your pain.  Good luck in your search for that perfect tone, at the perfect volume.
 
Best regards,
Bill