Jim Roseberry
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 09:55:26
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azslow3
Why Komplete Kontrol is not going to be more popular than Logitech Gaming Keyboard? No way, never...
What's this have to do with the price of tea in China?  Of course Komplete Kontrol won't be as popular as a gaming keyboard. We (DAW users) are a small fragment of the general-computing population. That gaming keyboard will be nowhere near as popular as a conventional (business) keyboard. Nobody is saying Linux isn't valuable... The beauty of Linux is it's flexibility. The "Achilles Heel" of Linux is it's flexibility. It's just not a full-featured DAW platform. That's thousands of man hours away.
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cityrat
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 09:59:52
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☄ Helpfulby Jarsve 2015/05/10 16:11:27
Ok Im confused http://www.pcgamer.com/microsoft-windows-10-will-not-be-sold-as-a-subscription/ Microsoft: Windows 10 will not be sold as a subscription At its press event today, Microsoft announced that Windows 10 will be a free upgrade for Windows 7 and Windows 8 users during its first year of availability. There was some confusion, however, when Microsoft's Terry Myerson started talking about Windows 10 "as a service." Did that mean that after that first year of free availability, Windows 10 would cost an annual fee? I asked Myerson for clarification after the presentation, and he confirmed that there will be no additional fees attached to Windows 10, whenever you buy it. Myerson clarified that Windows 10 users will still get free updates and support for the lifetime of the OS, exactly like past versions of Windows (like XP and Windows 7's Service Packs, for example). There's no subscription model for updates or support or continuing to use the OS. Myerson's reference to Windows "as a service" simply meant that Microsoft plans to update the OS with smaller, more regular updates rather than the big, chunky updates of past Service Packs. A year after Windows 10 is first available, it will no longer be a free upgrade for Windows 7 and 8 users. Microsoft will then sell Windows 10 the same way it has sold past versions of Windows. MS hasn't set a specific price yet, but Myerson said the price will likely be comparable to past versions of Windows. Windows 8 costs $120 on Amazon, for instance. Update: It seems there's still confusion. It is very clear from this post that for the first year it's available, you can upgrade to Windows 10 for free if you have Windows 7 or 8. You will not pay for it. After that year is up, nothing will happen to your Windows 10 license. If you do not upgrade within that year, however, you will have to pay for an upgrade. The offer expires after a year, not the upgrade.
Sonar Platinum | Windows 7 64 bit SP1 | Intel i5 3570 3.4GHz | 8GB RAM | Gigabyte GA-B75-D3H | OCZ SSD | RME 9632
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Beepster
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 10:40:37
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The thing about Linux folks is they are endlessly curious and inventive. It seems more about the journey of creating something useful as opposed to striking it rich. As I said upthread I'm willing to bet with the release of Bitwig a lot of dudes are hacking away at builds to cater specifically to audio (there are already distros that do this that gswitz told me about that although probably not up to what most of us need it shows that the community is willing to figure this type of stuff out and offer it up to the world for free/cheap).
Now that they have an extremely robust DAW to tinker and test their distro, tools, apps, drivers, etc with I'm guessing the quirks and gaps in the Linux platform for audio that have made it impractical thus far are going to get sorted. Seeing as how Linux is kind of modular and obviously open source what makes it an excellent platform for task specific things like web servers and databases could make it a much more streamlined backbone for audio.
The challenges would likely be...
Interface and MIDI drivers but many of the generic stuff they put out for other hardware works great so that shouldn't be a huge issue... especially if the manufacturers play along (and they now have a good reason to with Bitwig out).
Getting VSTs and other stuff to work but since many people seem to ALMOST get these types of things working using Wine if the coders created a version of Wine or something similar dedicated to plugging the holes that currently exist then that's solved.
Making sure that they pay specific attention to hardware interactions so everything runs smoothly like HDD/RAM/CPU/Ports all working in sync without any disruption.
By removing all the extra frivolous crap MS and Apple put into their OS's to serve the masses and starting with a simple, basic build that ONLY deals with audio (but that can have extra stuff added from the repositories as usual) it could end up being a WAY more trouble free for recording/mixing than Windows or OSx could even dream of acheiving with their "One Size Fits All" approach.
And since it's open source with a strong, highly intelligent/skilled community when problems arise there is no patenting/licensing/corporate secrets crap holding back advancement (well not as much).
Of course I could be totally wrong but it's nice to think about.
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Doktor Avalanche 
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 10:52:15
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jih64
Doktor Avalanche
Hardware support? I have pretty much everything working.
Doktor Avalanche
As soon as I can get Platinum working in Wine (almost there not quite)
My point exactly
I have everything working perfectly, and didn't have to do anything but double click to achieve that, not hours, days or weeks or more of messing around trying to get something to work :)
Doktor Avalanche
About time you installed it again, works well even for windows users and straight out of the box
lol, no thanks, been there, done that, brought a tshirt and coffee mug, literally. And from my experience, and by your own admission above, it certainly does not work "straight out of the box", not for things other than the basics. There is no comparison to be honest.
Very strange conclusion. How many Linux or Apple apps do you have running in Windows? From that can we safely conclude Windows does not run very well? And those who are banging on about driver support Linux has excellent support, in a lot of cases the drivers are better than windows. Those saying it's a toy or too fiddly haven't installed it recently. That old reputation needs to go.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/05/09 10:59:16
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Anderton
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 10:53:03
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As I know nothing about operating system care and feeding, nor can I code, I am perfectly qualified to comment  I've always felt the operating system was something to leave as soon as possible so you can get into your application. If I boot up Live on a Mac or Live on Windows, I'm running Live - not OS X or Windows. Sure, Live depends on those underpinnings, but I don't care what the underpinnings are. The program acts the same way. This forum is proof that Windows was not designed with high-level, professional audio streaming in mind. Look at all the tweaks and conflicts we have to deal with to "bend" Windows to our liking. Although the Mac is better in many respects from the OS standpoint, it has other limitations. I've always thought it would be great if someone came up with a Windows variant that stripped away all the crap we don't need and was optimized specifically for media applications. You would dedicate a computer to running it, and all it would do is run audio and music software and go online. It would be conceptually like an MCI 24-track...a box that does one thing, but does it well. Maybe a "Linux Media" operating system would do this. Or maybe not. What do I know?
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 10:58:04
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Well the Ubuntu studio distribution trashes all over windows for latency. It's especially built for low latency. Many of the drivers are far better written than windows versions., esp the open source ones.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 11:01:28
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Doktor Avalanche
Well the Ubuntu studio distribution trashes all over windows for latency. It's especially built for low latency. Many of the drivers are far better written than windows versions., esp the open source ones.
What's the lowest round-trip latency you can achieve under that distro?
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 11:11:22
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Can't answer that right now (I'm using Sonar in windows )... it's significantly lower... I'll have a go when I get a chance....
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Beepster
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 11:19:17
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I'm only really starting out with Linux stuff and I've only played with the most consumer friendly (ie: Windows dum dum) version of Ubuntu and my experience is... it is not as smooth for many thangs than my Win7 install (on my laptop which is me gen use machine). However once it is up and running there are certain things that are WAY faster. Most notably data transfer. I can move files around MUCH quicker on the same system in Ubuntu than Windows and writing data to disk seems faster. Other stuff like internet load times, boot up, starting programs seems to take longer.
I think if I got SMRTerer about Linux and did a custom build I could get it running smoother but I don't have the time or skills.
My point is though that I think if someone, somewhere really put some effort into creating a solid distro for modern music production the fact that data can be moved around so smoothly and quickly (which why it is desirable for web servers and servers in general) it could be absolutely awesome for streaming audio.
I am no tech though. I just think it is worthwhile for a curious and adventurous company like Cakewalk with a curious and adventurous consumer base (like us Sonarites) to explore the benefits of Linux.
Heck I bet many of the Bakers are Linux nerds who could knock off a solid distro specifically for Sonar for us as a hobby project. The userbase could help too.
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sharke
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 11:28:52
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The thing is, there are just as many (if not more) Windows users who are endlessly curious and inventive too. There's a huge amount of free open source software available for Windows. I don't know exactly what % of the market Windows has worldwide but I'm pretty sure I've read it's somewhere in the region of 90%. That's a lot of users, and a lot of tinkerers. I'm not saying Linux doesn't have its place, but it will always remain a niche market.
I'm sure there are Linux builds geared toward audio Beepster, and I'm sure they will get better. But the reason why they will remain a small niche is that the number of people who use their computers purely for audio is very small. I'm pretty sure most people reading this do most of their computing on the same computer their DAW is installed on. I have a laptop I use for business tasks but for everything else, I use my big beast of a desktop, primarily because it's big and powerful and a joy to use. I've tried editing photos on my dinky little laptop and it just annoys me. So my consideration is not just for audio but for all the other software I run on it.
I don't think the profit motive is a bad thing when it comes to software development. When you have a coherent team of full time developers working in close proximity with each other under a unified design strategy with a steady stream of cash, you're going to end up with a far more polished and usable product.
One thing I've found about open source software is that the documentation is usually not up to scratch. You get the feeling it's been written as an afterthought by tech-minded people who aren't trained in the art of explaining something clearly to the layman. For comparison, look at the documentation available for Adobe's stuff. Well written manuals and a wealth of professionally produced tutorial videos available free for users on their slick, expensive website. That's the difference between open source and a commercial company with large support and marketing budgets.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 11:37:57
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The ironic thing is that core Linux is more geared towards audio than core Windows. With Windows it's an after thought. Maybe Windows 10 will fix it (not holding my breath). If you want a smooth experience with your hardware Linux has it. Linux has great DAW's and great hardware support, but sure no way near as extensive as windows - but it is pretty damn good! That makes Windows no 1 here, but really Windows is VHS and Linux is Betamax. Linux is superior, it is OPTIMIZED for music. I participated in the UK general election this year, and the same old boring faces got in. The main reason is because people were not prepared to vote for radical parties that could make change, instead they voted for other parties in order to get another party out.... And once again we are at the status quo. Nobody is thinking out the box. Now if everybody voted for what they actually believed in we could have seen a different result. Linux is an operating system to believe in, it's all there. Vote Linux! Make it mainstream like it is in the server market.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/05/09 11:44:54
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Beepster
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 11:45:28
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I totally agree, sharke but there is a bit of a paradigm difference between the inventive folks writing for Windows and those tinkering with Linux.
With the Windows kids they are writing INTO and for Windows which remains static. Aside from creating changes within Windows settings you are stuck with the main OS.
With Linux distros the OS itself can be built to task because it's open source. So you only add what is needed and leave off the rest (however the other beauty of Linux is if you REALLY need to add something you can reach out and grab it from the repositories).
So, yeah... that's not as appealing to those who want to use their systems for multiple things but for those who have a system set up specifically for audio and have other rigs to do their general stuff being able to have all your hardware/software ONLY worrying about the music is an awesome prospect.
Also that doesn't mean that system has to be totally useless for other things like gaming or whatever. You can keep your Linux audio install on one partition for when you are working on audio and then a Windows partition to do everything else. Of course some people like to bounce around on the same system but myself I actually keep my laptop in my DAW room as I work so I can go nuts on it surfing the tubes and generally screwing around as I work on the DAW which is just running Sonar.
I'm a little weird though I guess and we are a society of convenience but I personally like that compartmentalization of my resources and attention. Keeps me on task and I don't have to worry as much about my more frivolous computer adventures screwing up my music machine.
Meh. Just blathering... as usual. ;-)
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sharke
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 11:46:26
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Doktor Avalanche
Linux is an operating system to believe in...
Like the tooth fairy? 
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 11:50:43
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sharke
I don't think the profit motive is a bad thing when it comes to software development. When you have a coherent team of full time developers working in close proximity with each other under a unified design strategy with a steady stream of cash, you're going to end up with a far more polished and usable product.
So many people misunderstand open source. Many of the products have paid developers. My last big coding job was working for a big open source firm in Silicon Valley, I got paid well and you can download most of the code for free. Opensource much as MS and Apple would dislike it... is the future... Look how Google is handling it... Then again MS has codeplex so they acknowledge it as well. How many of us are being paid to test Sonar here? How many people are supplying feedback for free. Only this week I noticed somebody writing a utility to help us identify projects... for free.. Open Source products are often better than their competitors. Even Cakewalk is opening up... they've offloaded some of their code (Mackie Control) and they are adopting open source style feedback with their community. There may be a day where they will open up their code but of course not any time soon. If they did.. this they would just give away basic core version, and sell an enhanced version and support.... like they all do.. The big advantage would be they would get many developers fixing issues for free and larger adoption.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 11:51:24
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Doktor Avalanche
Linux is an operating system to believe in...
sharke
Like the tooth fairy?
Exactly, however this tooth fairy actually exists.
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Anderton
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 12:05:47
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sharke
The thing is, there are just as many (if not more) Windows users who are endlessly curious and inventive too. There's a huge amount of free open source software available for Windows. I don't know exactly what % of the market Windows has worldwide but I'm pretty sure I've read it's somewhere in the region of 90%.
The following is from NetMarketShare.com as of April 2015. I think one reason why Microsoft wants to offer a free upgrade is obvious is you look at the market share of W7 vs. 8.1 vs. XP. Perhaps they don't want Windows 7 to become the "tube amp" of operating systems that people just want to keep using and using and using. If they're ever going to move past it, they need to get more people on board. 
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 12:11:57
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Yup this is the popularism thing going on. It's not the product it's how many use it. Now check the server market share and the tablet market share, that's just desktop which is becoming increasingly irrelevant. BTW MS makes most of their money in the server market.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 12:13:05
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☄ Helpfulby DrLumen 2015/05/09 13:30:19
Whoaa... This thread has gone pretty far into the weeds from the original post. It is worth noting that the article posted by the OP said nothing about a subscription model or any other way to monetize "windows as a service." A more germaine article by a professional Microsoft follower is here: https://redmondmag.com/articles/2015/04/01/subscription-model.aspx What may be more important to Windows users, especially those who depend on drivers and support for things that may be considered specialty items by the average user (DAW's and audio hardware?), is that you will likely not have the option to stand pat when you find a version that works well for you. Currently I have a machine that runs Windows 2000 because it will still run a photo scanner that I bought before the company dropped support for newer windows versions. These are fully licensed, fully functional versions for which no security updates are required as they are not connected to anything. The often repeated statement that Windows 10 would be free to users who keep Windows automatic updates running strongly suggests to me that it will require periodic reauthorization. If you elect not to stay up-to-date it is quite possible that you will not be able to run at all. And given past history it is conceivable that some new patch or "feature" will break an existing relationship with something truly useful in your system. That could represent a significant hidden cost even to "free."
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sharke
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 12:21:36
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Doktor Avalanche
Yup this is the popularism thing going on. It's not the product it's how many use it. Now check the server market share and the tablet market share, that's just desktop which is becoming increasingly irrelevant. BTW MS makes most of their money in the server market.
The desktop versus tablet market share will probably stabilize. There is a limit to how "irrelevant" desktops become, largely because tablets are good for one thing and desktops another. People like working with large screens that are directly in front of them, especially if they're going to be working for any long period of time. Looking down at a small tablet screen for hours on end is just going to give you eye strain and a stiff neck. To say that desktops are becoming "increasingly irrelevant" is pure spin.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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tlw
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 12:26:42
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irvinMost of us don't want or need to know how the car engine operates. Most of us don't want to drive stick-shift. We want a car that only needs steering and braking, accelerating. That's why fully automatic cars are overwhelmingly more popular than stick-shift, regardless of which one is technically better. .
While here on the eastern side of the Atlantic manual transmission is overwhelmingly more common. In the UK and most of Europe if you pass your driving test in an automatic you aren't even legally allowed to drive a manual until you pass another test in a manual so pretty much everyone learns to drive in a manual. Only around 1/5 cars sold in the UK are automatics and that's the highest market share they've ever had. In the UK we've lots of narrow, winding roads, hills and urban areas with narrow streets. Like the rest of Europe we've historically tended to go for smaller engines in a relatively high state of tune while the US historically went the other way. The UK/US gearbox differences arose because each meets the local requirements best, plus the familiarity factor. Had the UK, for example, gone down the 1950s US road of big V8s and straight 6s in a low state of tune while having huge local oil resources (the North Sea oilfields weren't being tapped back then) then maybe we'd also drive automatics and vice versa, but that didn't happen. It's the same with operating systems. Historical familiarity counts for a great deal and favours Windows, and Windows, so long as the hardware is powerful enough, does a good enough job at many things. It's only people like us who want Windows to do things it wasn't designed for like low-latency audio that have to get involved in the inner workings. Windows great entry point into the home market was that for years and years you could borrow a set of Windows disks from work or a mate and install it on your own PC with no need to pay anyone anything at all. So people got used to Windows so choose Windows. And once a product has market dominance it has a huge advantage because people will tend to pick the market leader simply because the market leader "must be the best, right?" Whether Windows would do as well if it went to a rental model is an interesting question. Personally I have my doubts. I'm not sure people wanting a computer at home would choose another OS instead though, I suspect they may simply cease buying desktop computers and switch to iOS/Android tablets which can already do a great deal of what home PC owners mostly want to do apart from resource-hungry games. The corporate world may or may not stick to a rental Windows. That would be down to cost/benefit analysis, but the "MSDOS/Windows PC in every home" market Bill Gates talked of years ago might cease to exist.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 12:28:05
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@sharke Operating systems are converging because more and more CPU, storage and memory is cheap and performs well. Check what Microsoft are doing with their mobile platforms for instance and what they did with Windows 8.
The day where you have a specific OS for a task or particular hardware is almost over give it another 5 years, the only tough nut to crack now is battery life and charge times ... and there's already technology out there which isn't in the mainstream yet.
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Beepster
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 12:38:08
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Really the way to look at the Linux paradigm from a purely "make it work" viewpoint is this...
Think of a photocopier or a self contained Casio keyboard or whatever. It has it's own little code written onto chips (or even little hardrives) and all they do is make the device work. It is programmed to do exactly what it needs to do... no more, no less. It does not get interrupted by other conflicting instructions. None of its resources get hogged by other tasks. It just works.
With dedicated distros those instructions are on your terminal (your computer) and send the data where it needs to go to make things happen. If you don't add any extra gack to the process then the terminal just focuses on those tasks and all the hardware involved does not get distracted.
With Windows or OSx or even Linux distros like Ubuntu that are intended to "do it all" and mimic those other OS's it has a million and one things going on. It is always ready and waiting to handle whatever you throw at it. Which is great for multitasking.
But it also takes a lot more resources, causes a lot more potential conflicts and interruptions and is just generally unnecessary if all you want to do is ONE specific task.
We don't install a full consumer version of Windows on a photocopier because that would be silly.
Servers are kind of the same way. You need more than a simple photocopier needs but far less than a system that someone is going to do "whatever" on... but you also need more in the way of data management/storage and intrusion protection. You want your terminal's resources to go to those tasks instead of all the crap a modern consumer PC does. You aren't going to be watching videos on it. You aren't going to doing a bunch of spreadsheets or editing or whatever. You just want it to retrieve and serve up data and thwart incoming threats.
Similarly... with audio what are we doing? It's far more complex than a web server and certainly far more complex than a photcopier BUT we see it day in and day out here on the forum. Windows settings meant for generalized usage are interrupting data flow. Background programs are interrupting data flow. Bad programs/drivers conflicting with the OS are interrupting data flow. Yadda yadda.
I showed up here over three years ago and gatdamned if it isn't a massive annoyance trying to keep track of all this crap you have to do to make sure all this OTHER stuff that is really just designed to give a more generalized audience a GENERAL release that will serve MOST people's needs isn't interfering with our very specific needs as music producers.
In a perfect world we could get Microsoft to release a version that caters to us and is completely optimized for audio but no way in bleeping poop is that going to happen. They won't let us crack it legally... so what do we do?
Well, we rely on guys like Mr. Roseberry to build and tweak our systems and that is brilliant BUT having streamlined OSs that simply remove all that extra crap would be great. Then Jim could focus on testing hardware... lol.
This was I think part of the whole reason PT was the market leader for so long. Their dedicated boxes handle all that nuisance and took much of the OS out of the equation. Same for video. You just couldn't rely on the core system and OS to deal with that crap and you paid through the nose for the luxury of being able to avoid it. Now our systems are able to deal with it but our OSs are so convoluted and scattered we have to crap our pants trying to worry about all the fiddle faddle.
I mean it's not as bad as all that and if a moron like me can make things work we truly are in a golden age but really if the code was there to just make sure all the data was going where it needed to, the common platforms (like VST) were available, driver support for the main manufacturers were in place we could be running MUCH more on MUCH less.
Dare to dream... eh?
Sorry for the pontifimication and excessive elaboramations... weird mood today I guess but damned would it be cool to just put all that crap behind us.
Audio terminals, baby!!!
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 12:44:03
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And with Linux you simply plug in the functionality to make it work. It is modular. All distributions do is make it simpler for the end user to do it as a beginner base. If you want to strip out all the crap you don't need you can do it quickly and easily. Even if there is software laying around on your hard drives you don't use, it generally lies dormant and does nothing unlike windows. Windows however you need get buy into a specific OS for the job. You then spend half your life trying to turn a circle into a square.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/05/09 12:50:38
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BobF
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 12:45:18
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Back to Win10 for 7 & 8 users ... did I dream this, or is there some fine print somewhere that says the 10 box will be req'd to take auto updates?
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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John
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 12:48:39
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Beepster
Really the way to look at the Linux paradigm from a purely "make it work" viewpoint is this...
Think of a photocopier or a self contained Casio keyboard or whatever. It has it's own little code written onto chips (or even little hardrives) and all they do is make the device work. It is programmed to do exactly what it needs to do... no more, no less. It does not get interrupted by other conflicting instructions. None of its resources get hogged by other tasks. It just works.
With dedicated distros those instructions are on your terminal (your computer) and send the data where it needs to go to make things happen. If you don't add any extra gack to the process then the terminal just focuses on those tasks and all the hardware involved does not get distracted.
With Windows or OSx or even Linux distros like Ubuntu that are intended to "do it all" and mimic those other OS's it has a million and one things going on. It is always ready and waiting to handle whatever you throw at it. Which is great for multitasking.
But it also takes a lot more resources, causes a lot more potential conflicts and interruptions and is just generally unnecessary if all you want to do is ONE specific task.
We don't install a full consumer version of Windows on a photocopier because that would be silly.
Servers are kind of the same way. You need more than a simple photocopier needs but far less than a system that someone is going to do "whatever" on... but you also need more in the way of data management/storage and intrusion protection. You want your terminal's resources to go to those tasks instead of all the crap a modern consumer PC does. You aren't going to be watching videos on it. You aren't going to doing a bunch of spreadsheets or editing or whatever. You just want it to retrieve and serve up data and thwart incoming threats.
Similarly... with audio what are we doing? It's far more complex than a web server and certainly far more complex than a photcopier BUT we see it day in and day out here on the forum. Windows settings meant for generalized usage are interrupting data flow. Background programs are interrupting data flow. Bad programs/drivers conflicting with the OS are interrupting data flow. Yadda yadda.
I showed up here over three years ago and gatdamned if it isn't a massive annoyance trying to keep track of all this crap you have to do to make sure all this OTHER stuff that is really just designed to give a more generalized audience a GENERAL release that will serve MOST people's needs isn't interfering with our very specific needs as music producers.
In a perfect world we could get Microsoft to release a version that caters to us and is completely optimized for audio but no way in bleeping poop is that going to happen. They won't let us crack it legally... so what do we do?
Well, we rely on guys like Mr. Roseberry to build and tweak our systems and that is brilliant BUT having streamlined OSs that simply remove all that extra crap would be great. Then Jim could focus on testing hardware... lol.
This was I think part of the whole reason PT was the market leader for so long. Their dedicated boxes handle all that nuisance and took much of the OS out of the equation. Same for video. You just couldn't rely on the core system and OS to deal with that crap and you paid through the nose for the luxury of being able to avoid it. Now our systems are able to deal with it but our OSs are so convoluted and scattered we have to crap our pants trying to worry about all the fiddle faddle.
I mean it's not as bad as all that and if a moron like me can make things work we truly are in a golden age but really if the code was there to just make sure all the data was going where it needed to, the common platforms (like VST) were available, driver support for the main manufacturers were in place we could be running MUCH more on MUCH less.
Dare to dream... eh?
Sorry for the pontifimication and excessive elaboramations... weird mood today I guess but damned would it be cool to just put all that crap behind us.
Audio terminals, baby!!!
Nicely put Beep. I ask myself why I admire Beep so much this post tells why very nicely.
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Beepster
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 12:48:46
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Anderton
sharke
The thing is, there are just as many (if not more) Windows users who are endlessly curious and inventive too. There's a huge amount of free open source software available for Windows. I don't know exactly what % of the market Windows has worldwide but I'm pretty sure I've read it's somewhere in the region of 90%.
The following is from NetMarketShare.com as of April 2015. I think one reason why Microsoft wants to offer a free upgrade is obvious is you look at the market share of W7 vs. 8.1 vs. XP. Perhaps they don't want Windows 7 to become the "tube amp" of operating systems that people just want to keep using and using and using. If they're ever going to move past it, they need to get more people on board.
HAHAHAHA!!! I love it! Win7 is definitely the XP (and the 95) of the MS cycle. I hated Vista... like HATED it. I know people liked 8 well enough and I know they did a lot of performance enhancements but it just looked way too ridiculous for me. I have high hopes for 10 actually and will definitely take advantage of the free upgrade period... at least on my laptop at first but then likely on my DAW. I have my bought and paid for Win7 disc if it ticks me off but I think this will be the "good" version in their usual cycle of "let's release something totally experimental, charge for it, see what annoys the hell out of everyone and what works then release the REAL version". People complain about Cakewalk using us as BETA testers but MS has it down to a freaking art. One thing about 10 that I almost thought was an April Fool's joke (and maybe it was and I'm just an idiot) is that Google Glass rip off that allows you to set up your programs inside your physical space. I would totally lose my freaking MIND with creativity if I could somehow edit and perform in Sonar just swiping around my room and punching at floating instrument GUIs. HOW CRAZY WOULD THAT BE?!!! Forget touch! I want to 3D thrashing!!!
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Beepster
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 12:50:03
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John
Nicely put Beep. I ask myself why I admire Beep so much this post tells why very nicely.
*fistbump*
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einstein36
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 13:07:31
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Anderton
As I know nothing about operating system care and feeding, nor can I code, I am perfectly qualified to comment
I've always felt the operating system was something to leave as soon as possible so you can get into your application. If I boot up Live on a Mac or Live on Windows, I'm running Live - not OS X or Windows. Sure, Live depends on those underpinnings, but I don't care what the underpinnings are. The program acts the same way.
This forum is proof that Windows was not designed with high-level, professional audio streaming in mind. Look at all the tweaks and conflicts we have to deal with to "bend" Windows to our liking. Although the Mac is better in many respects from the OS standpoint, it has other limitations.
I've always thought it would be great if someone came up with a Windows variant that stripped away all the crap we don't need and was optimized specifically for media applications. You would dedicate a computer to running it, and all it would do is run audio and music software and go online. It would be conceptually like an MCI 24-track...a box that does one thing, but does it well.
Maybe a "Linux Media" operating system would do this. Or maybe not. What do I know?
If memory serves me right, a few years ago, there was a company that was offering a stripped down, optimized version of windows called something along the lines of Winlite or something along those lines, but Microsoft came along and sued the company and said they couldn't offer this version so the company went out of business. Just like the MAC clones back in the days when there was many hardware PowerPC clones running mac OS that actually ran better than the true mac hardware pcs and Apple came in and sued them all and put a stop to the mac clones and of course as they say, the rest is history:)....Apple was failing in the Powerpc hardware and changed over to Intel and rewrote their OS for the hardware which improved their sales.... Same with Microsoft, back in the days, there were just a productivity os until games and audio applications came along and then they realized they needed to up their game in which they did with Win7 and now Win10...
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Beepster
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 13:35:16
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einstein36
If memory serves me right, a few years ago, there was a company that was offering a stripped down, optimized version of windows called something along the lines of Winlite or something along those lines, but Microsoft came along and sued the company and said they couldn't offer this version so the company went out of business.
Just like the MAC clones back in the days when there was many hardware PowerPC clones running mac OS that actually ran better than the true mac hardware pcs and Apple came in and sued them all and put a stop to the mac clones and of course as they say, the rest is history:)....Apple was failing in the Powerpc hardware and changed over to Intel and rewrote their OS for the hardware which improved their sales....
Same with Microsoft, back in the days, there were just a productivity os until games and audio applications came along and then they realized they needed to up their game in which they did with Win7 and now Win10...
And that right there is the advantage of the "open source" nature of Linux. Heck... if MS or Apple opened up their code for task specific tweaking then collected royalties on the results of what was built from their patents they could make money, advance technology and make folks happy at the same time. But that's not how big corporate tech works. There is a plan and schedule in place at least a decade in advance to optimize revenues. That's fine and I have no problem with capitalism BUT I also think it is to the detriment of their own bottom line and the advancement of tech age. If Windows was open source but said "hey... you're using our base code so pay us if you make a profit" we could be SOOOOO much further ahead. Instead they shut it down with lawyers, stifle (or steal) innovations and keep on their predetermined schedule. Can't blame them because they learned the lessons of the initial tech wars early on and they became top dog but the top dog eventually falls if they don't adapt. Heck... notice how MS stuff is looking more and more like iThingie stuff? As people get smarter and tech saavy (and trying to save a buck in the new economy) these open source options are gonna start looking better and better and those open source options are themselves getting more consumer friendly. Time marches on. Also, most probably know this but for those who don't... open source does not mean free. It just means the code is available for people to alter. Many Linux applications allow you to download and tweak for free but if you start making money off it you owe the original coders money. That seems like a much more reasonable and progressive model for the tech industry. It is inclusive, encourages advancement, reduces inital overhead but also rewards innovation and common usefulness. Now THAT is capitalism.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar
2015/05/09 13:50:36
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Yup capitalism is alive and well in open source! And actually it could not survive very well without it... It would end up being hobbyist playground only (people saying Linux is a hobbyist OS are SO wrong!).. . This is the complete opposite of real life. I wish Govt's would adopt the open source methodology themselves when it comes to.... everything...
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