fitzj
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Midi track tempo
Is their hidden code within a midi file that allows sonar to play the midi back at a certain tempo when it was imputed from an external device.
I have a midi drum track that is a 4/4 beat and I would say it plays at around 170 to 190 tempo.
When I open a new project in sonar it plays the midi at the same tempo but sonar default is at 120. So the midi should be much slower.
How does it know how to play at the proper tempo?
I was searching through the view option but not find anything.
Anyone cast some light on this.
If I input a simple pattern at this 120 tempo it would be very slow compared to the midi track I have. So somewhere in the midi track code sonar is picking up its tempo.
post edited by fitzj - 2010/02/10 05:17:49
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larrymcg
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/09 12:02:24
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Yes, a standard midi file has "meta events" that set the tempo, time signature, key signature, etc.
These events are stored in the Header Chunk and is separate from the where the midi data we normally see which is in the Track Chunks.
A sequencer such as Sonar reads the meta events and makes things right! (Now there's a highly technical statement!)
--Larry
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brundlefly
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/09 18:45:52
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If you open a MIDI file with SONAR by double-clicking it or dropping it on a shortcut to SONAR. SONAR will read the tempo from the file and set that as the project tempo. If you drag and drop or import a MIDI file into an existing project, the events will import to the measure and beat locations stored in the file, but the project tempo will not change. So if you drag a 170BPM MIDI file into a 120BPM project, it should play slower.
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D.J. ESPO
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/09 20:05:22
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can't you take the tempo events out using the list editor ? ( like for instance ; the same as you would for program changes ( patch) )
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larrymcg
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/09 20:13:56
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No, the tempo events are not in the midi data where notes and patch changes are.
There is something, maybe called a tempo track or tempo view, which sequencers can show and edit. There is one tempo track in a midi file.
--Larry
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D.J. ESPO
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/09 21:39:35
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Thanks larry!
good to know
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larrymcg
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/09 23:43:25
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I think I should correct some statements that I made above. First, I'm always referring to a Format 1 midi file. Things are somewhat different in Format 0 midi files.
In post #2 I said that the meta events for tempo were in the Header Chunk. Actually they are in a Track Chunk which is just like the Track Chunks that contain the note and other midi data. It's usually the first Track Chunk and contains time signature and tempo meta events.
Following are Track Chunks, one for each midi track.
I'm still simplifying a lot but the end result is that the sequencer shows and manipulates the tempo info separately from the note and program changes and the other midi events.
-- Larry
Intel Core i7-4790 @3.6GHz; 8GB; Win10 Pro 64bit; 1TB disk + 3TB ext disk; Midiman Fineline mixer; MidiSport 4x4 midi I/F; Roland JV-30 kbd/synth; Yamaha TG55 synth; Rx with 3 piece Home audio speakers; Sonar X3e Studio
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fitzj
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/10 05:16:27
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brundlefly
If you open a MIDI file with SONAR by double-clicking it or dropping it on a shortcut to SONAR. SONAR will read the tempo from the file and set that as the project tempo. If you drag and drop or import a MIDI file into an existing project, the events will import to the measure and beat locations stored in the file, but the project tempo will not change. So if you drag a 170BPM MIDI file into a 120BPM project, it should play slower
Not with it yet Larry so bear with me on this one please. If I create a new project it sets default tempo at 120. I create a midi track and import the midi file it should then play at 120 or whatever tempo is in the display window. Is that correct?
When I do import, drag or open the track I have to go back to the 120 setting otherwise its far too fast, even though I know its up near the 200 tempo.
Yet it play correctly at 120. No other tracks in the project except the Midi and the TTs synth
P.S I have uploaded the midi file to ftp://193.95.170.78/midi username midi password midi
post edited by fitzj - 2010/02/10 05:50:14
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/10 05:55:21
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No offence taken, please, but I have to ask the obvious:
So..it's not a double tempo case? Meaning: the track played, say, at tempo 120 using 1/32 notes instead of tempo 240 using 1/16 notes?
If the fast file plays back correctly in 120 tempo, it must also sit right in the PRV, so the answer could lie in the note length.
"If I input a simple pattern at this 120 tempo it would be very slow compared to the midi track I have."
How do you input the pattern? If you drag it from a beat library or step-record it following tempo 120 and 4/4 it actually is 50% of the tempo of the midi file in question. What if you make it in the piano roll view using same note lengths as in the midi file?
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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fitzj
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/10 06:31:41
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Kalle Rantaaho
No offence taken, please, but I have to ask the obvious:
So..it's not a double tempo case? Meaning: the track played, say, at tempo 120 using 1/32 notes instead of tempo 240 using 1/16 notes?
If the fast file plays back correctly in 120 tempo, it must also sit right in the PRV, so the answer could lie in the note length.
"If I input a simple pattern at this 120 tempo it would be very slow compared to the midi track I have."
How do you input the pattern? If you drag it from a beat library or step-record it following tempo 120 and 4/4 it actually is 50% of the tempo of the midi file in question. What if you make it in the piano roll view using same note lengths as in the midi file?
Thanks for getting back. I don't understand midi very well as I just record audio. The only midi I use is within Ezdrummer and they work 100%. I am working on a tune and the guy made this midi file on his yamaha hand held sequencer. I connected it with midi cable and recorded the the midi file into Sonar. I guess now I should have set the proper tempo in sonar before I started the project. It was recorded at default. So..it's not a double tempo case? Meaning: the track played, say, at tempo 120 using 1/32 notes instead of tempo 240 using 1/16 notes? (Not sure on this either) I have the midi file on my desktop and I have done all the different ways of dragging, open and import. Hope this is a little clearer???
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brundlefly
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/10 14:00:23
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I have uploaded the midi file to ftp://193.95.170.78/midi I checked out the file. It does have an embedded tempo of 120BPM. Where are you getting that it should be 170-190? Seems to me the pattern is definitely not intended for that high a tempo.
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fitzj
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/10 16:21:13
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brundlefly
I have uploaded the midi file to
I checked out the file. It does have an embedded tempo of 120BPM. Where are you getting that it should be 170-190? Seems to me the pattern is definitely not intended for that high a tempo.
I have upload the audio file i bounced from the midi track using TTS. Its not 120 much faster.
post edited by fitzj - 2010/02/13 16:45:31
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larrymcg
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/10 16:54:36
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I looked at the midi file and it does set a tempo of 120. However, whomever was playing the drums was not playing at 120. They were playing as some tempo less than 120. Looking at the Pedal Hi-Hat notes (a G#3) the first note is at 1:01:000 and the 4th beat is at 1:04:257 - 257 ticks late! The next note is at 2:01:330 - 330 ticks late. When I play the midi file I can see that the sequencer is running at 120 but the drum notes are playing at a slower tempo.
--Larry
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brundlefly
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/10 17:39:45
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However, whomever was playing the drums was not playing at 120 Ha! Good catch. Set Measure/Beat at Now says it's a pretty steady 102.11BPM.
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D.J. ESPO
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/10 18:28:10
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Oh that's just a bit of a backbeat swing/shuffle thing going then right ??!!
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larrymcg
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/10 18:48:10
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D. J. Espo,
I'm not sure what you mean?
Whatever the type of beat, the drums get further and further behind the 120 tempo. So the drummer is not laying back - he/she is playing at a slower tempo.
--Larry
Intel Core i7-4790 @3.6GHz; 8GB; Win10 Pro 64bit; 1TB disk + 3TB ext disk; Midiman Fineline mixer; MidiSport 4x4 midi I/F; Roland JV-30 kbd/synth; Yamaha TG55 synth; Rx with 3 piece Home audio speakers; Sonar X3e Studio
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D.J. ESPO
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/10 18:54:42
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Sorry ,
I forgot my Silly Simile ( Kidding )
Don't worry , I still have my day job !!
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fitzj
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/10 19:52:35
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Thanks guys but 102 is too slow for a quickstep beat. It seems much faster.
If I start up ezdrummer and set the tempo at 102 thats a very slow beat.
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brundlefly
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/11 15:08:50
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Thanks guys but 102 is too slow for a quickstep beat. It seems much faster. Sorry, but that's what it is. If I were you, I would snap the end of it with Set Measure/Beat at Now, which will change the initial tempo to 102 with everything aligned to the time ruler (roughly, because it's not quantized), and then set the initial tempo to whatever you want it to be. EDIT: Here's the quick way to do it: Set your snap grid to a quarter. Click in the time ruler to set the Now time at the 91:02 beat line. Hit Ctrl-M and enter Measure 77, Beat 4 in the dialog, and hit OK. Note that the tempo is now 102.05 Enable your audio metronome, and play the MIDI through a drum synth. You will hear the timing wandering around little, and some of the fills seem to be in odd places, but the kick will be pretty much right on the metronome throughout.
post edited by brundlefly - 2010/02/11 16:25:41
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fitzj
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/11 19:56:32
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ok got it working 102.5. May I ask what you used these numbers 91:02 and measure 77 beat 4? The kick is ok now how would I tighten up the rest of the drums?
post edited by fitzj - 2010/02/11 20:34:08
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brundlefly
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/12 02:05:29
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I counted the beats to find that the last one was on 77:04. I was going to have you set the Now time to the beginning of the last kick or crash, but clicking on the nearby 91:02 was close enough, and easier to describe. Basically what you're doing is telling SONAR to adjust the tempo (the rate at which beats in the time ruler go by) to make the 77:04 beat line fall on that absolute time of the last event. so the playback is unaffected, but the bar lines now match the MIDI.
I found that some of the fills had to be quantized down to a 32nd, but some of the kicks and other beats were loose enough that quantizing to 32nds would move then the wrong way. So you'll have to do some selective quantizing of different sections and/or drum note numbers to different resolutions.
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fitzj
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/12 03:46:43
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In future when recording in a midi from an external device, will setting the tempo in sonar beforehand solve this problem. PS When you say you counted the beats is that the beat of the kick or snare, I moved my cursor to measure 77 beat 4.00 within the midi and it don't see anything obvious???? When I carry out your instructions. Then the time ruler and last midi note both end around the 77:04
post edited by fitzj - 2010/02/12 05:54:25
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/12 05:21:58
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fitzj
In future when recording in a midi from an external device, will setting the tempo in sonar beforehand solve this problem.
If, like it seems in this case (?), the original player has played the drums "freehand" without metronome, thus recording in a 102 tempo on a "120 bpm grid", you'd have to know the original tempo to set it. Otherwise, you'll just need to afterwards find out what it is like the guys here did.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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fitzj
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/12 06:05:57
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It certainly works, but I am trying to figure out why bundlefly used measure 77 beat 4 In his own words he said "I counted the beats to find that the last one was on 77:04"
post edited by fitzj - 2010/02/12 06:56:04
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larrymcg
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/12 09:47:13
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I'll try to say what Brundlefly said in different words.
I think he looked at the drum part while ignoring the bar lines. It is easy to see where the beats are in the drum/piano roll view. Although there is no one instrument (like bass drum or hi-hat) that plays on every beat, it is still easy to see where the beat is. Take a look yourself.
Brundlefly went thru the entire track and counted 308 beats which, at 4 beats per measure, comes out to exactly 77 measures where the last beat is the last beat of measure 77 (i.e., 77 beat 4).
Hope that helps clarify rather than obscure......
--Larry
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fitzj
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/12 10:23:49
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Thanks Larry but I just don't get it. What is a beat. What do you count to get 308.
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larrymcg
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/12 12:10:07
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Your track is in 4/4 time - 4 beats per measure and a quarter note is the length of the beat.
If you listen to the drum track and tap your toe to the sounds you hear, you will (most likely) tap your toe in synchronization with the beat. So that is an audible recognition of the beat. When you look at the drum track you will see that the it starts off with 4 pedal hi-hat notes. They are exactly on the beat and set the tempo of the music (not the tempo of the sequencer). Then the Acoustic Bass Drum starts playing on the beat, 4 beats per measure. The Acoustic bass drum, after the first measure which is a count-in measure, plays on the beat almost all the time. Once in a while the bass drum drops out and some other instrument plays, like in the breaks and fills.
Play the track with your eyes closed and tap your toe to what you hear. Then play it again with your eyes open and your toe tapping. You will see it!
--Larry
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fitzj
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/12 12:22:20
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Larry
So are you saying that with your eyes closed and your toe tapping you start counting and you get 308 beats.
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larrymcg
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/12 12:57:10
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I didn't actually count them - Brundlefly counted them and I'm assuming he counted accurately.
Yes, I am saying that if you tap your toe to the rhythm, you will count 308 toe taps (or beats).
I imagine it is easier to count the beats by looking at the drum track in drum/piano roll form. I say easier because you don't need to count in real time.
--Larry
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fitzj
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Re:Midi track tempo
2010/02/12 14:48:03
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"I imagine it is easier to count the beats by looking at the drum track in drum/piano roll form"
I don't know how to count the beats by looking at the drum track. I don't know what to look for????
I am counting 296 kick which are supposed to be on the beat.
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