Helpful ReplyMixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway)

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Cactus Music
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/08 10:24:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Starise 2015/06/12 14:30:20
Using what I said and the car, If you've had the same car for a few years and have been listening to hundereds of albums and at different volume levels, you have learned what it sounds like now. So then you pop in your own creation and and should be able to compare what you hear. 
 
Like I said, I don't care how much you fuss and spend. it's all about learning to listen to any given system. Of course the better the system the easier this is to achieve. 

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batsbrew
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/08 10:29:36 (permalink)
bitflipper
Yet it remains a useful reference because it will often exaggerate weaknesses in your mix.



actually, 
i've heard amazing pro mixes sound like sh!t in a car just as well!
 
honestly, i don't think listening to car stereos helps your case at all.
it's all over the map.
 
 

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#32
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/08 11:43:09 (permalink)
I have finally achieved a pretty good result comparing my studio monitor, headphone, and car stereo response to my mixes. Yes there are noticable differences between all three but they are now acceptable. 
It took me a long time to get my speakers adjusted by width and depth compared to where I sit. I then use both AKG240's AND ATH M50's to check and then my car. 
Another big deal for me was where I placed my mastering limiter. Now I use ToneBooster's Barricade set at the same bit depth as my song (usually 24) and place it Post Fader. This was recommended by ToneBoosters and at least now I can do a rough mix, upload to my Android and listen in cans and in my car and it all stays together.
 

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synkrotron
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/08 14:14:25 (permalink)
Regarding Redline Monitor, FWIW, I'm ditching it.
 
On the one hand, I find it makes it a touch easier to listen while mixing, but I've decided I don't want to get used to that...

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#34
olemon
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/10 12:08:18 (permalink)
I use headphones a lot, but also my monitors.  I compare my mix to a reference song in both systems.  My spare room studio doesn't have any treatments yet though, so that's a problem I have to deal with.
 
Lastly, I usually put my final mix/master on the iPhone along with the reference song and play them in the car that has the better sound system.

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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/12 11:21:43 (permalink)
An interesting article in SOS:-
 
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan07/articles/mixingheadphones.htm
 
If only I could afford £1400 for a DAC headphone amp 

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#36
Starise
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/12 14:27:37 (permalink)
One area I think that headphones excell at is the small details. When I mix only on monitors I sometimes miss the small things I can pick up on headphones...like little clicks or pops..the sound of my arm rubbing the guitar after a take..the click of a mouse. 

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Jimbo21
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/13 09:14:31 (permalink)
I just bought a pair of Sennheiser  HD 650 headphones about a month ago. This is the first pair of cans I've had that sound really close to my monitors, especially the bass response. Some mastering engineers use them. They are a little darker than the Hd 600 phones, which mastering  guys seem to like a lot as well. I use them on every mix now for bass and spatial stuff to see how much my room is affecting what I hear and to make those type of mix decisions. I have a set of AKG 240 's that were my go to cans, and while quite good, the Hd 650 is far superior, at least to me.

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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/13 13:05:44 (permalink)
I think the VRM box is incredibly useful. First of all, if you're completely limited to headphones then it's going to improve your mix's translatability immensely. But even if you're not, the box gives you a number of different listening environments to check your mix against. This is 100% more convenient than burning mixes to CD's and taking them into your car, over to your friend's house etc. It doesn't not matter whether or not the simulations are particularly "realistic" version of the listening environments and speakers they claim to be. What matters is that when you listen to a good mix through the VRM box, it translates well to all of the simulations. By that I mean the instruments are well balanced against each other whether you set the VRM to KRK's, Adams, Auratones, laptop speakers, TV speakers or 90's Hi-fi (to list some of the VRM presets). Nothing sticks out too much, the bass part is audible on small tinny speakers, instrument separation is good etc. I've listened to a lot of classic mixes through the VRM box, and they work through every preset. A tinny TV speaker isn't going to give you a great listening experience but a good mix will project the essentials of the music through it in a balance that communicates the soul and essence of the track. A great song that's mixed well will sound great even when played on a cheap AM radio. 
 
I think where a lot of people go wrong with the VRM box is in expecting to be able to do all of their mixing through it. Wrong! I believe the correct way to use the VRM box is to mix through whatever speakers you have (whether that be monitors in a treated room, monitors with ARC or a good pair of headphones) and to use the box frequently to CHECK YOUR MIX DECISIONS  through a few of the simulations to get an idea of any problem areas that need tweaking. For example you might find that your bass and kick parts are completely inaudible through the laptop speaker preset, or that the vocal jumps out too far on the Auratones. It's a balancing act of course. You're finding EQ and compression settings that work in many listening situations. 
 
It seems to me that the more listening environments you have at hand to check your mix through, the better. 
 
Any discussion about mixing through headphones is incomplete without the usual warning about keeping levels low. This is especially true in the case of earbuds, which can cause a lot more damage than over the ear cans due to the proximity of the sound source to your eardrum. It's important to keep the levels lower than you would ordinarily listen to, because you're going to be wearing those cans for a lot longer on a mixing project than you would if you were just listening in a recreational context. 5-6 hour sessions are not uncommon, and that's an awfully long time to wear headphones. If I'm working with headphones I stop for a break every 15-20 minutes. Tear 'em off and do something else for 5 minutes. And make sure you're getting enough magnesium, because a deficiency will leave your ears more vulnerable to noise damage.

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#39
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/13 13:33:01 (permalink)
@sharke... Zactly. The onus really is on the engineer to use the VRM box for what it is. It's a handy tool but there is a lot of technique involved too and imagining yourself in those virtual rooms. I have not been doing a lot of mixing lately but one thing I've tried to do is drag a reference track of a song I am very used to listening to into my project (which of course is always a helpful trick) and blast that through the VRM emus to get comfortable to the environments and then compare that with what I'm working on.
 
I've of course listened to a lot of my favorite albums a lot on all sorts of different sources but I've also been in a lot of cover/tribute bands. So there are certain songs/albums/bands I listened to over and over and over and over again dissecting every little nuance of the music. Those are generally the tracks I use especially if the material is similar. I know how those songs respond to various systems and what I should be hearing. That gives me a much better idea of what I'm doign wrong in my own mix.
 
I've been so preoccupied with tracking since I've gotten the bugger though I haven't had much chance to really do any massive mixing stuff with it. I do intend to revisit some older stuff and if I can ever get my current original project finished it will certainly be used (and already has a bit) for the final mixes.
 
Cheers.
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dmbaer
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/13 18:14:47 (permalink)
I've posted this here before, but another go won't hurt.  I met mixing guru Mike Senior a few years ago and specifically asked him his opinion on the VRM Box.  He pointed me toward this piece he had already written about it:
      
http://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms-ch2_FocusriteVRM.htm 
#41
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/13 19:58:38 (permalink)
dmbaer
I've posted this here before, but another go won't hurt.  I met mixing guru Mike Senior a few years ago and specifically asked him his opinion on the VRM Box.  He pointed me toward this piece he had already written about it:
      
http://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms-ch2_FocusriteVRM.htm 


Thanks for posting the link to this article. As I'm a VRM Box user myself, it's great to read and get more ideas on it.

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sharke
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/14 00:11:22 (permalink)
Beepster
@sharke... Zactly. The onus really is on the engineer to use the VRM box for what it is. It's a handy tool but there is a lot of technique involved too and imagining yourself in those virtual rooms. I have not been doing a lot of mixing lately but one thing I've tried to do is drag a reference track of a song I am very used to listening to into my project (which of course is always a helpful trick) and blast that through the VRM emus to get comfortable to the environments and then compare that with what I'm working on.
 
I've of course listened to a lot of my favorite albums a lot on all sorts of different sources but I've also been in a lot of cover/tribute bands. So there are certain songs/albums/bands I listened to over and over and over and over again dissecting every little nuance of the music. Those are generally the tracks I use especially if the material is similar. I know how those songs respond to various systems and what I should be hearing. That gives me a much better idea of what I'm doign wrong in my own mix.
 
I've been so preoccupied with tracking since I've gotten the bugger though I haven't had much chance to really do any massive mixing stuff with it. I do intend to revisit some older stuff and if I can ever get my current original project finished it will certainly be used (and already has a bit) for the final mixes.
 
Cheers.




Yeah actually the VRM box can be a little disheartening. You listen to your mix through it and the bass sounds muddy and flabby and indistinct through some of the presets and you're tempted to think "meh, it sounds good on the other presets, I bet those speakers it's simulating sound like that anyway." And then you listen to a really great mix through it, anything by Steely Dan for example, and it sounds perfect. Rats! 

James
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#43
Beepster
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/14 14:04:48 (permalink)
Ha! Yeah... in a lot of ways it can actually make things take waaay longer because as you go through the presets/environments you notice the little things... so you tweak and tweak and tweak. But I've find that really if you don't dwell on a preset to the point you kill something that sounded good on another preset or through the dry cans/monitors inevitably it starts sounding better on all the presets and without the box.
 
It seems to be a real technique/workflow because if you aren't flipping through it all, checking it in the dry cans and monitors and whatever other stuff you have laying around then you mix into one of the presets and ruin your work. So you just keep moving and flipping and tweaking and checking.
 
It really isn't ideal and it is definitely time consuming but for those of use who are years away from a properly treated room with high end gear and have a case of the OCDs it seems to offer a way to balance things. There is nothing more infuriating then mixing the pizz out of something and having it sound awesome then listening to it on another source and it completely soils the bed. That type of thing is when I quite literally want to grab my framing hammer and destroy every last piece of expensive junk I've got in the joint.
 
I can certainly see how and why pros would frown on or poo poo the VRM tech. They are used to and have access to the good gear so it's easy to point out the flaws... and that's useful knowledge but inevitably what is their solution? Buy expenisive gear and treat your room. Well bloody feck, brutha... why didn't I think of that? lulz...
 
I know they are truly giving the best advice possible and it is totally correct but seriously when it is just not an option then you gotta grunt it out. Just like the olden days where you'd drag a CD or cassette of you stuff into the car, over to friends place, to the club/pub, whatever to try and find problems and/or give up and pay someone a ton of cash to do it properly for you.
 
The one better cost effective solution is the ARC stuff but that's actually three times as much and still doesn't solve the issue of not having a properly soundproofed room to work in.
 
I certainly know the VRM thingie isn't a replacement for the real deal and I don't expect it to be but darned if it isn't nice to have a fake out option to maybe get things a LITTLE closer. The alternative is quite literally just using the headphones dry and VERY briefly checking on my monitors and computer speakers so as to not get kicked out of my apartment. I'll take what I can get.
 
However, speaking of ARC, bitflipper actually posted something quite a while ago about using "pink noise" and a mic to tune your room how ARC does. I've got it in one of my old bookmark backups (I really need to consolidate that shize at some point) but it was an interesting read. I intend to try it out some day.
 
 
#44
Danny Danzi
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/22 14:30:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby olemon 2015/06/22 17:26:19
I read these comments and see myself right back where you guys are now. What sucks is, though I love to help out and give advice, I can't even give any here other than I never mixed anything worth anything on headphones. I have tried so many.....it's crazy. I know cans are the only option for some of you. The only advice I can give is to try a few and sell them if they don't do what you hope they will do.
 
What sucks even more is how some of these cans change over time. I've been an AKG K240 DF supporter for a long time. I've cooked all of mine over the years and had to search for something that would help me. I hated searching for them as much as trying every pack of guitar strings and every guitar pick up I could find.
 
I bought a set of Sennheiser HD's based on a recommendation. Though they are semi cool, they are quite bass heavy for my ears. Yet bitflipper has the same pair and claims his lack a little bass. I tried the AKG studio (gold ones...really nice) and they fell short. I tried the M50's, AKG pro's....uggh! I finally went with the AKG K240MKII's which are sweet and almost sound like my monitors.
 
That said, nothing in the "headphone" software area has done anything for me. I've tried them without any success. Luckily for me, ARC has worked so well along with having a sub, what I mix sounds the same everywhere. All my vehicles, headphones, ear buds etc. The only place I can say my stuff fails is on some lap tops. I think I've obtained a happy medium as far as getting things to sound acceptable on everything.
 
I don't listen to music on ear buds or cans. I understand that just about everyone else does. I do the majority of my listening in my vehicles and in my studio. So that's where I tend to make my decisions. Whether that is right or wrong, it's what I feel is best and it works for me. I really don't care if my music may lack a little low end in certain headphones or earbuds. Most devices these days offer onboard eq. I'd rather people acclimate to what I'm doing as it is much easier for an individual to alter something for THEIR ears than it is for ME to try and keep the world happy.
 
Remember this little tidbit of information. You can never go wrong if you just add enough bass to round off your mix. As soon as you feel the bass, chances are you're using too much. With that in mind, you'll just about never ruin a mix with mud and clutter. This is where the home recording guy is failing. Stop trying to over-master things and shoot for neutral. Leave the super loud and sub low stuff to people that know how to handle that. Honest when I tell you, things will change for the better for you if you try the above.
 
I do quite a bit of work for important people in this industry. If you heard what a REAL mix sounded like BEFORE mastering, you would never load up on sub low bass again. Trust me....round out the stuff to where you can hear some bass with a subtle bass push to lightly feel it. Anything more than that and you'll lose 75% of the time especially if you do not have the right room, monitors, correction or experience.
 
Control the bass, watch piercing high end and don't buy into the "digital = harsh" myth while trying to warm everything up with excessive mid range congestion. Happy medium.....nice and neutral. Let the people that are listening to your music ruin it with their excessive EQ's. The more neutral you are...the better it will sound once they attempt to eq the heck out of it. LOL! :)
 
Got a good mix in cans....send it to someone you respect the opinion of so they can tell you what they hear. Like Leadfoot said....after years on the same gear, you just get a handle on what sounds like what. Learn what you have if you have no other alternative. It really can help you to send some stuff to someone that is credible enough to tell you the right stuff. That said, keep telling yourselves.....you shouldn't really have to LEARN a room or a piece of gear.
 
Meaning.....when everything is just right in your room and with your monitor environment, mixing is just about NEVER a guessing game nor is it a "learn your room" type of experience. It's actually a lot more simplistic than people make it. You hear what you hear, and you know what to do. Simple....as it should be when all the pieces are in place. I'm mixing the core of a song from scratch in about 2 hours. 9 times out of 10, what I come up with sticks with little to subtle alterations.
 
When it is a guessing game or a "learn the room" situation...it's because you're limited or stuck with what you're stuck with. I mixed on monitors for years and failed because I didn't have the right stuff or at the least, flat monitors. This forced me to do the majority of my mixes on cans. Well, they were fair at best but nothing to brag about. The day I fixed my room and dialed in my monitors was the day the black clouds parted and left for good.
 
In a nutshell.....what I'm trying to say is....don't stress out with getting a major label mix if all you have are limited resources and headphones. Do your best, enjoy what you're doing, don't stress out and don't over-think anything. Sure, everyone wants to have good production.....but I've heard only a handful of people that were able to excite me with their headphone mixes.
 
Not that my opinion means anything....I'm just saying, try as you may, you'll *most likely* never get to that "wow" level as long as cans are your only means. So just do your best and keep putting out music without stressing or trying to take over the world with production. :) This is meant to pump you up and keep you from stagnating, not deter anyone away from getting better.
 
At the end of the day, I'd rather have a few albums worth of material out there to show people what I can do over having 3 songs that took 10 years to sound good. Put them songs out there and don't look back. If you get a record deal or decide to use another engineer or mastering guy etc...then worry about it. :)
-Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2015/06/22 14:40:58

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#45
michaelhanson
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/22 16:29:38 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
 
At the end of the day, I'd rather have a few albums worth of material out there to show people what I can do over having 3 songs that took 10 years to sound good. Put them songs out there and don't look back. If you get a record deal or decide to use another engineer or mastering guy etc...then worry about it. :)
-Danny




Now that there, is some excellent advice!

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robbyk
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Re: Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway) 2015/06/23 11:27:26 (permalink)
Words of wisdom!

"I'm just workin' on a good life, the way it is."
 
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