Mixing With Headphones - new idea (for me anyway)

Interesting, and thanks 
 
I'm a headphone mixer. I do have some nearfield monitors (Tannoy Reveal) but I rarely get the chance to use them nowadays because I have dismantled my little studio.
 
I've always known about this little dilemma, left ear not getting what's coming from the right and visa versa, but feel that most peeps are going to listen to my music on headphones. In fact, I often class my music as "headphone music," because headphones give a better way to "immerse" yourself into a piece that has lots going on across the dynamic range (or sometimes hardly anything at all).
 
Would I use my nearfields if I lived in the middle of nowhere? Or had a totally sound proof room? Well, I probably would. But headphones still have their uses.
 
Of course, that is only my opinion, as this can be a rather subjective topic...
 
Might still be worth checking out that product though, so thanks.
 
cheers
 
andy
 
edit:-
 
£45... Hmmm.......
 
But if you register an interest they give you a sixty day demo, so I think I might sign up for that.

This is quite an interesting discussion (for a nerd like me).
 
Something to think on..
Other than the variance in quality of headphones, everyone listening to your music using headphones will hear exactly the same as you did when you mixed it on headphones.
.
But if you're mixing with monitors, the only person who'll ever hear that mix is you. No one else will have the same speakers set in the same place in an identical room and sit in the same place as you to listen.  In fact most people listening on speakers won't be making any effort what-so-ever to be in the correct "space" for speaker listening.  Most will have no choice about speaker positioning (car audio...) and those that do (home stereo system) won't understand the difference between left and right channels..  (HiFi geeks excepted..)
 
But anyone can put on a pair of headphones (even earbuds) and get a pretty good approximation of what you mixed.

Kamikaze
I also like headphones for jamming and not worry about how bad my jamming is, and who can hears it. Especially since now I remove the window from my apartment in the day to let more air through.

So what you're saying is,  you turn your amp to eleven and use your closed back headphones as ear protection,  with the added advantage that you can't hear anyone complaining despite all the windows being wide open..
 
I like your style

So, Synkrotron, do you use phones for mixing and mastering?
 
 

jerrydf
So, Synkrotron, do you use phones for mixing and mastering?
 

 
Hi Jerry,
 
Yes, I do. I used to have a pair of Beyer Dynamic DT-250's but I gave them to my son, for general use, and I now use a pair of KRK Systems KNS-8400 (cost me around £100 so still quite cheap really).
 
Mixing and Mastering though are loose terms because I am not a professional. A pro mastering engineer would spend around ten to twenty grand on both his mastering setup and room treatment. I neither have the money or, more importantly, the ears for true mastering. Which also means I will never use a pro mastering service on any of my creations, it (my music) just isn't worth it.
 
This is my hobby only and primarily I am a composer, and mixing, then mastering comes next, and I do the best I can with the tools I have.
 
Like I said above, if I lived in the middle of nowhere, or had a soundproof room, I probably would use my nearfields for mixing. The Tannoy Reveals though are not the best monitors as the frequency response only goes down to 60Hz. So I would still end up relying on my spectrum analyser and EQ to get rid of sub 50Hz stuff.
 
My "stuff" is available here, if you wish to sample my wares 
 
https://soundcloud.com/synkrotron
 
There's quite a spectrum there of new and old stuff, not so bad and damn right awful... Should give you an idea of what I create using headphones only (would recommend downloading because SoundCloud only streams at 128kbps whereas I upload 320kbps MP3 files).
 
Sorry Jerry... I suppose I could have answered "yes" or "no" 
 
cheers
 
andy

synkrotron
I'm 55 and I've been listening to most of my music on headphones since my early teens.
 
Just sayin 

Wow, I hope I remember my early teens when I'm 55!

Beyerdynamic DT-990 Pro
 

or
AKG K-612 Pro
 

 
The former have a coiled cable. I have been indecisive between the 2 for ages, so may just let the coiled cable be the winning factor (though they tend to change these details, a friend has the same Audio Technicas as mine, but his have a straight cable). 

Kamikaze
Wow, I hope I remember my early teens when I'm 55!

Same here...
 
 

At least with headphones you can (almost) guarantee the listener will be wearing them on their head, so the biggest variation in sound (moving around the room, or placing speakers in stupid positions) is removed from the equation, leaving only the frequency response to worry about.
By aiming for a good balance and middle ground with your mix you know you'll be getting a reasonable representation with the listener, which can't be said for speakers...

I think the device mentioned is a great way for some to mix with no other option than headphones. I wouldn't trust it to make a perfect representation of the studio monitor sound...but maybe it could be useful to get close.
 
If you only mix on headphones I think you are at a slight disadvantage. Without exception any mix I have have ever made always sounds better on open air monitors, so I try to get it the best in both worlds usually by checking with ARC2 and the associated psuedo representations it has in it to mock other systems. Our ears were never designed to be closed with sound piped in...so this is an unnatural thing that has become popular, and is throws our bi location all off. Without exception I always make a better overall mix if I mix on monitors. If I mix on only  headphones my mixes sound like crap on monitors...I think this is because I have a better idea of the panning and spacial characterisitics of a mix.
 
Don't get me wrong...I don't think headphones are from satan..I use headphones when I don't have anything else. I just prefer open monitoring and I think you hear things in a mix you never would otherwise hear. The interplay between the two sides is more prominent and I'm not convinced there is really any good subsitute for using both.
 
I started asking myself questions early on about what it was that made a mix sound ok on most earbuds and speakers. After mixing awhile I started to get some of it. Bass is a big factor. Bass with some midrange bump and a small Q is good for weak systems. Bass roll off or high pass can help to clean mud from a mix. Panning and reverb selection are important to listeners on speaker systems and not so much for those with earbuds..but you need both.Cheap systems are mid heavy...so too much mid isn't good. Small things like this can help a person to get a good approach before you ever touch the first fader.
 
I would never assume the listener will use this or that. Many people have exposure to good systems. One of my cars has a standard car stereo but another  has an eight speaker bose system in it...so panning can become crucial even for a car stereo listener. 
 

I did get some mixed reports on my latest tune, as you can see here:-
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Nessus-created-using-Hive-m3232764.aspx
 
Some say low end is muddy, some that the mix sounds okay. I have yet to listen to it on a "hi-fi" system myself yet. We don't have a hi-fi in the home any more. Long story, but to cut it short, I lost a battle of the speaker wars many years ago, so I gave up totally.
 
A decade or so ago, when I did have a hi-fi, I would burn a new tune to CD just so that I could check the mix on my hi-fi and in the car. Not any more though... At least at the moment... I've a few years ahead of me yet and I may, in the future, get my studio back, and hence plug my nearfields in.
 
In the meantime, it's headphones for me, and I will have to call on favours of peeps here to check my mix on speakers.
 
cheers
 
andy 

Unfortunately I am not blessed with a reasonably soundproofed environment (thanks to the stupid slag who told me otherwise when I was asking about this apartment) nor do I have the means to properly treat the room so I'm pretty much stuck mixing with my Senn 280s (which I like but I would have gotten the ATs if I had the cash).
 
So I got a VRM Box. I like it. It's just another sound source to check on. Usually I do the bulk of the work through the headphones as is. I'll turn on my monitors at low level (because I can't crank really them in here), try out some other headphones (I've got a bag of various cans and earbuds of varying quality), try out my little computer speakers and now... all the various environments in my VRM Box.
 
I figure if I can get it sounding decent through all those sources I'm close enough. If someone ever wanted to pay me real money for my compositions or I wanted to release a proper album sending the tracks to a proper mastering house would correct any remaining issues.
 
Seriously anything that's intended to be released as "professional" should be sent to a proper mastering house anyway. Aside from ACTUAL mastering engineers with a PROPER mastering set up, no matter HOW much we fool ourselves into thinking we can "do it ourselves" we will never be able to get that final polish needed unless it is totally by fluke.
 
The most infuriating part of it is all those buggers are doing is really nudging an EQ around and maybe adding some compression/limiting. They just know EXACTLY how it needs to be done and have the tools to HEAR what needs to be done.
 
Of course all that crap cost them insane amounts of money and years of experience to acquire/learn but it's still a pisser.

Bottom line= If your good at it your mix will sound good on every system imaginable no matter how you did it. I normally use my NSM 10's but I've been on the road where all I had was some average quality headphones. But I know how they sound, so I can mix on those too. 
You just need to learn how to listen and know what your source is telling you. Go ahed and spend money.. it won't help until you learn how to listen.  
 

It shouldn't affect frequency response, at least not directly, and not in a way that you'd be able to see on a graph such as Pro-Q's.
 
Where frequency perception comes into play is when you mix left and right channels together and get constructive/destructive interference from L/R phase differences. Certain mixing techniques, especially widening tools, can significantly effect the spectrum in this way.
 
And therein lies the value of VRM: if you mix and master entirely on headphones, you will not be aware that such problems even exist.