Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...?

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John
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/19 23:05:21 (permalink)
I don't unfreeze before exporting a mix down.

Best
John
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/19 23:52:39 (permalink)
There is no reason to unfreeze before a final mixdown. Frozen audio is stored as floating point data so there is no loss of resolution compared to the synth.
BTW there is an audio snap command that allows you to "un audiosnap" clips from the AS toolbar I think. That should get rid of the extra processing passes if the audio snap operation was unintended..

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#32
AT
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 00:09:26 (permalink)
I freeze the synths, copy and drag them to another audio track, then unfreeze the synth and archive it.  Then I can process the copied freeze just like any other audio.

I export the project in the project format (bit depth and sample rate) and import it back into the project and save it so it stays w/ the rest of the project.  I can copy the mixdown version into Sound Forge or any program I want to master it and make final copies.  A fairly simple process that works for me.

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noynekker
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 00:26:01 (permalink)
I believe freezing was created to free up system resources, for projects with lots going on, or systems that are RAM limited. When using frozen tracks, it enables you to keep latency at maximum levels, if you need to record something live, or play in a new part to a complex project.

If your latency is good, no dropouts as the project progresses, then I think it's true . . . you may never need to freeze any of your tracks.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 01:54:27 (permalink)
Teds_Studio


BTW....what is the reason for freezing if you need to unfreeze before mixing down?  Is it to free up processing power of the DAW?  I have a fairly powerful PC especially for doing audio....it works fine for working on HD video which I also do on this same PC, so I would think it would handle audio with ease.

So if I understand this right...I really have no need to freeze anything unless my PC is getting bogged down?


edited to fix typo


Correct.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 03:54:56 (permalink)
Yes, the only time I freeze these days is if my system is struggling to keep up with all that Midi data being processed.

Some people like to freeze their synths once tracking/recording has finished so that when you're mixing, you are working totally in the Audio world, not Midi.

It might be prudent to freeze your synths whenever a project is 'finished' (define finished ) and to save the resulting audio only project down with a different name, just in case you decided to re-visit it at some time in the future and you find that a particular synth is no longer on your system.

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deanx
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 06:58:34 (permalink)
Does anybody else hear a slight dip in volume when freezing tracks or is it just me?

I haven't needed to freeze tracks for a while now after upgrading my system. But in the past when I used to freeze all my Ampitube and Superior Drummer tracks I could swear there was a slight reduction in volume. I'd slighty increase volume but when it came to un -freezing they would be a little to hot.

I also thought freezing tracks was a quick way to reduce CPU by using a quick algoritm, and tracks should be unfrozen, unfreezed, um.. thawed, before exporting a track or project. Which I was under the impression uses a better algorithm than freezing.

Is that right?

Thanks
Dean
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 08:06:24 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey

It might be prudent to freeze your synths whenever a project is 'finished' (define finished ) and to save the resulting audio only project down with a different name, just in case you decided to re-visit it at some time in the future and you find that a particular synth is no longer on your system.

+1. Freezing a project before archiving it is your best insurance against a synth getting obsolete. I do this on every project of mine. Lets say you want to  open up that project 5-10 years from now for a remix or some reason. You have a new OS new machine and the old crusty synth no longer exists. You have all you need to work with that project again. Unfreezing gives you back the MIDI data should you need to reassign it to a different synth.
Another good reason to freeze - an update to a synth may change the way it sounds which could be a problem if you have a finished project and just need to remix. Also some synths generate non-deterministic output which can vary slightly on each bounce.

Or in SONAR you can use the quick unfreeze feature to quickly audition differences between a prior part and a new one. Many reasons to freeze besides saving CPU. 


Edit: I missed another very good reason to freeze. Stability! Once you freeze you have completely eliminated all the DSP code in the synth from running. So you are completelu insured against any bugs in the synth (crashes, memory leaks, heap corruption) from causing instability in your SONAR project. Once you get to the mixing stage there is seldom any need to tweak any parameters related to the synth so freezing allows you to work with just the audio and a completely stable inside DAW only environment.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2012/09/20 19:11:37

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synkrotron
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 08:11:09 (permalink)
I'll generally freeze a synth and then straight away I'll drag/copy the wave clip to a brand new track (just by dragging it into space). I'll then unfreeze the synth so I get the MIDI data back and archive it, or just mute it or now.


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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 09:06:59 (permalink)
FastBikerBoy


Teds_Studio


BTW....what is the reason for freezing if you need to unfreeze before mixing down?  Is it to free up processing power of the DAW?  I have a fairly powerful PC especially for doing audio....it works fine for working on HD video which I also do on this same PC, so I would think it would handle audio with ease.

So if I understand this right...I really have no need to freeze anything unless my PC is getting bogged down?

Correct.  
edited to fix typo
Ted,you shouldn't have to freeze with an i7 2600k cpu,but about the "no audio pop up" if you select File/Export/Audio,I sometimes get that,and for me it only happens on my laptop[dell xps-a bit buggy] and if I save/reopen it will then usually be nice enough to get me to the "Export Audio" box,and when I'm there I usually select "Source Category"-Entire Mix,"source Busses/Tracks"-Audio Output.
Often I have it "blank" for "preset",and all the usual 16 bit 44.1 "dither" Power 3,and 64 bit Engine,the thing with this laptop[that may be occurring with yours as well ?] is I have to make sure the destination in Windows is correct as THAT will often be in-correct,so I must choose "libraries" etc,just like if I want a Pro Channel preset the wrong page opens[always on laptop] and I must find that.
Then its just press "Export",and it usually goes fine.
If I'm doing anything wrong here,someone let me know,Thanks!
Bob

Edit: I Totally missed Sir Noel's other myriad of reasons to freeze,so sorry about that,I generally haven't had much synth stuff happening,exept for Drum/soft synth,and I still have'nt bounced or frozen there yet[bounced yes,frozen no]


post edited by bobguitkillerleft - 2012/09/20 09:16:27

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#40
g_randybrown
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 10:46:24 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
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Bristol_Jonesey

It might be prudent to freeze your synths whenever a project is 'finished' (define finished ) and to save the resulting audio only project down with a different name, just in case you decided to re-visit it at some time in the future and you find that a particular synth is no longer on your system.

+1. Freezing a project before archiving it is your best insurance against a synth getting obsolete. I do this on every project of mine. Lets say you want to  open up that project 5-10 years from now for a remix or some reason. You have a new OS new machine and the old crusty synth no longer exists. You have all you need to work with that project again. Unfreezing gives you back the MIDI data should you need to reassign it to a different synth.
Another good reason to freeze - an update to a synth may change the way it sounds which could be a problem if you have a finished project and just need to remix. Also some synths generate non-deterministic output which can vary slightly on each bounce.


Or in SONAR you can use the quick unfreeze feature to quickly audition differences between a prior part and a new one. Many reasons to freeze besides saving CPU. 
This is very valuable info for me.... I had old projects (PA 9) I wish I would have at least saved the midi files...I'm now recreating them from scratch from a stereo wav.
Just to make sure I completely understand this procedure of archiving I would save as a cwb right?
Thanks Noel,
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#41
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 10:56:53 (permalink)
No problem ........

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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 18:05:12 (permalink)
synkrotron


I'll generally freeze a synth and then straight away I'll drag/copy the wave clip to a brand new track (just by dragging it into space). I'll then unfreeze the synth so I get the MIDI data back and archive it, or just mute it or now.


Yeah, that's exactly what I do too.  I prefer to work in just one environment, audio.  But the safeguard is there in case I need to change anything in MIDI, in which case I just re-freeze, move resulting audio and unfreeze.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 19:14:33 (permalink)
g_randybrown

This is very valuable info for me.... I had old projects (PA 9) I wish I would have at least saved the midi files...I'm now recreating them from scratch from a stereo wav. 
Just to make sure I completely understand this procedure of archiving I would save as a cwb right?

Randy

X2 will read even PA9 files so you should get all your MIDI tracks back intact as long as you have the .wrk or .bun files.
There is no need to save as a cwb. You can save as per project audio files and then archive the entire project folder. Thats actually the preferred way. 

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#44
Integra2112
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 19:24:53 (permalink)
I always bounce all tracks first.

This allows me to see the dynamic range of the final mix and subsequently apply various mastering touches if necessary. I then export and archive the mixed track. This method, I have a 'history' of subsequent mixes within the project file itself in case they are needed for reference/reversion in the future.
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TraceyStudios
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/20 21:23:06 (permalink)
seems to me bounced tracks get saved, "frozen" track are not saved (deleted when "unfrozen").

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#46
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/21 03:58:35 (permalink)
A bounce will create a brand new wav in a brand new track, or tracks

A freeze will, in the case of a soft synth, create a new wav and place it in the audio portion of a Midi/Audio pair fo tracks. When you unfreeze - you go back to the Midi so naturally, the Audio is discarded.

Freezing a track should not delete the original waveform.

Make sure you know what you're freezing - tracks or synths

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LJB
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Re:Mixing a song...is it really this complicated...? 2012/09/21 04:18:37 (permalink)
BTW, Sonar Plus's BULK FREEZE still works in X1D, just so you know. Just make sure all folders are expanded as it won't freeze any tracks hidden inside a collapsed folder. I still don't get why Cakewalk doesn't just give us a Bulk Freeze option, Benstat nailed it years ago!
 
This might have been mentioned here somewhere, but the other reason to freeze ALL tracks and BOUNCED busses is for archiving reasons - it saved my bacon on more than one occasion when a client suddelny wants a remix or a backtrack and the plus have become obsolete!

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