Monitor recomendations

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TraceyStudios
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2013/05/15 18:31:30 (permalink)

Monitor recomendations

I am thinking about getting a second set of studio monitors to A/B with my KRK's.  Thinking about getting Yamaha HS50M (5").  Any thoughts or suggestions.  My budget is $400 or less. Anyone have these? If so what do you think? Any other suggestions for this price range?

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    brconflict
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/15 19:56:11 (permalink)
    Probably a better thread for the Hardware section, but here's my 2 cents. I have two sets of monitors (used to have three): Mackie HR824, Yamaha NS-10 STUDIOs, and Alesis (something model). I've gone the route of using them to A/B/C audio mixdowns, and I've come to the conclusion that it's better to really get to know one set than it is to check multiple sets during mixing.

    Even though one might attempt to be as objective as possible, and adjust critically to each monitor, it actually will confuse your brain. Sure, you'll hear different things from each one, but there's no point in trying to get a mix to sound terrific on both sets. If you learn the one pair really well, and begin getting some consistency with translating a mix to your car, a set of earbuds, and a big stereo system, you're going to find you get even more consistent with the one pair. 

    I sold my Alesis monitors years ago, and have the Yamahas in storage. I only use the Mackies. I'll do a full mixdown on those, and then I'll crank up my modified Polk 2.3TLs powered by a PASS X-350 to check in a leisure listening situation. If those check out ok, I'll burn a disc and go audition in my car and van. The car gives me the best verification regarding the kick drum, and the van will tell me if the kick is too punchy. 

    The bottom line is, I wouldn't buy another set just to compare with. Sure, you'll hear different things, but this won't always help you translate your mix to the world better. I would take that $400 and invest it into the room acoustics. Hunt down a local, but long-standing mixing engineer to your studio and have him/her give you some advice in your room. That alone is worth more money than you have budgeted, and all you'd need to do is offer a snack and maybe a drink. Pay for an hour or two of their time, if they need it.

    With that said, many studios do have multiple sets, but the main reason is some engineers prefer one type/brand/model over another to mix with. Some even bring their own to work with. If you're going to shop for a set, I would save more money and look at upgrading to a set of ADAM's for example. There's some really good ones out there, but I wouldn't go buy another budget set. You won't gain much there.

    Anyway, that's my take. Best of luck!!


    Brian
     
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    #2
    Razorwit
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/15 20:24:18 (permalink)
    TraceyStudios


    I am thinking about getting a second set of studio monitors to A/B with my KRK's.  Thinking about getting Yamaha HS50M (5").  Any thoughts or suggestions.  My budget is $400 or less. Anyone have these? If so what do you think? Any other suggestions for this price range?

    Hi TraceyStudios
    If you're going to get a second pair of monitors I'd look for something really different than what you have now. I use Focals as my mains and then have some Auratone grot boxes...may want to think about something like that.


    Good luck,
    Dean

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    #3
    gustabo
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/15 20:43:13 (permalink)
    http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/C50A.aspx
    Behritone C50A's. They sound like crap, on purpose!
    The best thing, all you really need is one.


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    #4
    John
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/15 21:52:07 (permalink)
    brconflict


    Probably a better thread for the Hardware section, but here's my 2 cents. I have two sets of monitors (used to have three): Mackie HR824, Yamaha NS-10 STUDIOs, and Alesis (something model). I've gone the route of using them to A/B/C audio mixdowns, and I've come to the conclusion that it's better to really get to know one set than it is to check multiple sets during mixing.

    Even though one might attempt to be as objective as possible, and adjust critically to each monitor, it actually will confuse your brain. Sure, you'll hear different things from each one, but there's no point in trying to get a mix to sound terrific on both sets. If you learn the one pair really well, and begin getting some consistency with translating a mix to your car, a set of earbuds, and a big stereo system, you're going to find you get even more consistent with the one pair. 

    I sold my Alesis monitors years ago, and have the Yamahas in storage. I only use the Mackies. I'll do a full mixdown on those, and then I'll crank up my modified Polk 2.3TLs powered by a PASS X-350 to check in a leisure listening situation. If those check out ok, I'll burn a disc and go audition in my car and van. The car gives me the best verification regarding the kick drum, and the van will tell me if the kick is too punchy. 

    The bottom line is, I wouldn't buy another set just to compare with. Sure, you'll hear different things, but this won't always help you translate your mix to the world better. I would take that $400 and invest it into the room acoustics. Hunt down a local, but long-standing mixing engineer to your studio and have him/her give you some advice in your room. That alone is worth more money than you have budgeted, and all you'd need to do is offer a snack and maybe a drink. Pay for an hour or two of their time, if they need it.

    With that said, many studios do have multiple sets, but the main reason is some engineers prefer one type/brand/model over another to mix with. Some even bring their own to work with. If you're going to shop for a set, I would save more money and look at upgrading to a set of ADAM's for example. There's some really good ones out there, but I wouldn't go buy another budget set. You won't gain much there.

    Anyway, that's my take. Best of luck!!

    Excellent advice!

    Best
    John
    #5
    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/15 22:39:30 (permalink)
    I'd think about looking at an Avatone Mono-BLOC or consider the DIY route for it. I think Jeff Evans is a big fan of these (maybe send him a PM).

    Krks and the yams are too similar for any useful comparison I think. They do have a LOT of differences, but they are in the same ball park. You'd want to be spending big bucks like $2000 and significantly upwards to be used as a primary monitor and the KRKs for a quick check. KRKs are very hifi sounding so might be an alright check, especially the RP5's. I personally don't like them much... The VXTs are great, but not the Rokits.

    So in your case, I'd look at keeping the KRKs as primary monitors and take a downgrade type monitor to be your reference check - ie the cube or something similar. You get the idea.


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    #6
    bitflipper
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/15 22:54:44 (permalink)
    Agreed, the KRKs and the Yamahas are too similar. Either go extreme midrange, e.g. Auratone / Mix Cube, or pedal on down to your local pawnshop and see what they've got in the way of 1970's-era Kenwood or similar hi-fi speakers. No, I'm not joking.

    A third option: get a nice pair of audiophile headphones.  OK, so you've already got some decent cans. Add another pair. I'm currently thinking seriously about picking up a pair of Grados, which I think could be an excellent complement my ATH-M50s.


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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/15 23:41:34 (permalink)
    Rather than get speakers that may be similar to what you already have why not try something different. Like this:

    http://www.avantonepro.com/Avantone-Mono-BLOK-Active-MixCube-Single-Self-Powered-Mix-Cube-Monitor.html

    This is a single powered Auratone type speaker. This will do more for your mixes than anything else. You will get this for well under $300. Some shops sell these in pairs but you don't actually need two. Find somewhere that will sell you one only.

    You will need a method of summing your stereo buss to mono (and I strongly suggest doing that outside your DAW) and a control to vary its level. (A spare headphone jack with a level control is perfect for this) The idea is to listen to your mixes down quite low in volume with you perched close in front. It is fantastic for balancing everything in your mix. You still need your main speakers for bass and reverb accurate info. It is also great for checking mono compatibility. It is the only way to get a perfect balance of vocals and music as well. 

    Once you get into this you will realise how you will never be without it ever! Listening up loud on large monitors will get you nowhere fast. (in terms of accurate mixing that is) Your mixes will translate perfectly once you start using these and you will never have to check your mixes on 5 different setups again.  Once you do a great mix on this tiny speaker and then crank it you will be shocked how good your mix sounds!!

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    #8
    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/16 05:49:44 (permalink)
    Jeff, I thought you might chime in on this and mention the Avatones! I know you're a big fan.

    Have you done a DIY cube before? Can you shed any light on how one might sound compared to the real thing. Obviously it depends on the design, but I'd be curious to hear your opinions anyway.


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    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/16 05:53:29 (permalink)
    bitflipper


    Either go extreme midrange
    This is a good point actually because I find the KRK Rokits to be lacking in the mid range clarity specifically. I think they are slightly smiley face frequency response and maybe their crossovers are just dodgy too (I don't know much about crossovers) which takes a lot of it out. Extreme midrange would certainly be very advantageous to go alongside the KRKs.


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    #10
    vintagevibe
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/16 14:01:12 (permalink)
    Check out the Focusrite VRM Box.  Very handy modeled speakers and rooms for checking mixes on headphones.  I use mine to check every mix and it is extremely useful.  Also, if you are ever in a situation where you have to mix only on headphones you'll get good results.
    #11
    Shambler
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/16 14:12:34 (permalink)
    You already have a cracking set of monitors, get to know them.

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    #12
    konradh
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/16 14:15:55 (permalink)
    Sound on Sound just gave a good review of PreSonus Eris monitors.

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=presonus+eris&gbv=2&oq=presonus+eris&gs_l=heirloom-hp.1.0.0l10.6062.8562.0.10062.13.9.0.4.4.1.141.1048.0j9.9.0...0.0...1ac.1.12.heirloom-hp.K_6N7rq_xks

    I am happy with my KRKs and usually just check mixes in different environments.  My thought—and not saying it is right—is that if the monitors sound different enough to matter, there is something wrong and one of the sets needs to go.  The room would be a much bigger factor.

    If you had some crummy computer speakers, it would be different, but KRKs are pretty close.  I switched from Alesis Studio One passive speakers to KRK Rokit 6s (active) and could not tell any significant difference.

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    #13
    Beepster
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/16 14:17:43 (permalink)
    I like my Mackie MRKII's but they're the only ref monitors I've owned. Not sure if they are similar to the Yammies but they are pretty inexpensive at $150 each.
    #14
    TraceyStudios
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/16 19:11:42 (permalink)
    Bitflipper:  Hmmm, headphones, didn't think of that. I googled Grados and learned a little about them. what series are you referring to?  What do I need to look for in a set of headphone that will be used for checking my mixing?  All of the headphones I have are the $50 model from guitar center I use for tracking.

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/16 19:38:08 (permalink)
    Matt I don't have the Avantone but something very similar. A pretty decent 3 or 4" driver in small box and it sounds great. I think as long as the speaker itself has a decent magnet and can handle a bit of power than anything is going to work pretty well. The concept is all the same. Mine is passive and I drive it from a small Hi Fi amp I have lying around. It should not have a wide frequency response in fact. I still might invest in an Avantone though, they look good and apparently are perfect for this job. Many many studios in the past had small speakers like this. You still see Auratones on ebay as well.

    Tracey if you are running KRK's and they do tend to be a bit mid range lacking then all the more reason for the small monitor I have recommended. Because that is all midrange and the exact opposite to your main speakers so it would be a great addition.

    Also here is the reason why one is so much better. If you have two small speakers even you can still pan stuff in order to separate things like two similar sounding guitar parts and the panning is a slack way of creating separation. But with only one speaker the two guitar parts end up directly behind each other in the speaker and you have to use other more clever ways to separate them such as recording different guitars, amps and treating the two sounds much more differently in the mix. As they did with Beatles mono mixes for example. If they layered rhythm guitar parts and they did, they went to a lot of trouble to alter the guitar sounds each time in order to separate those parts in a mono speaker.

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    #16
    slartabartfast
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/16 20:34:31 (permalink)
    Do not get a pair of these. Terrible hissing and really bad breath:



    #17
    mudgel
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/16 21:04:16 (permalink)
    Sure put a smile on my face. Too funny.

    No wonder folks recommend using just one.

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    Rski
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/16 21:22:42 (permalink)
    I will agree with brconflict, a second pair of typical home speakers would help identify your mixes and how they translate.

    I've struggle with that issue myself with my project songs. I have some home speakers here that I use after the mix is done. Here in the man den, I find sitting back out of the triangle will help me with decisions, about glaring faults of a mix.

    Of course, the good old rule of becoming familiar with the sound environment using familiar commercial tunes that sonically stand out, helps get some audio perspective on your studio space
    #19
    Living Room Rocker
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/17 00:23:24 (permalink)
    bitflipper


     ...Either go extreme midrange... 

     
    @Tracey, if you want excellent midrange with superior stereo image, try Equator D5s (http://www.equatoraudio.c...ld-Monitors-p/d5.htm).  They are at the top of your budget for a pair and  you can get free shipping through the end of this month (May).  I have a pair and get good results with them.

    Kind regards,


    Living Room Rocker
    #20
    Teds_Studio
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/17 00:53:57 (permalink)
    John


    brconflict


    Probably a better thread for the Hardware section, but here's my 2 cents. I have two sets of monitors (used to have three): Mackie HR824, Yamaha NS-10 STUDIOs, and Alesis (something model). I've gone the route of using them to A/B/C audio mixdowns, and I've come to the conclusion that it's better to really get to know one set than it is to check multiple sets during mixing.

    Even though one might attempt to be as objective as possible, and adjust critically to each monitor, it actually will confuse your brain. Sure, you'll hear different things from each one, but there's no point in trying to get a mix to sound terrific on both sets. If you learn the one pair really well, and begin getting some consistency with translating a mix to your car, a set of earbuds, and a big stereo system, you're going to find you get even more consistent with the one pair. 

    I sold my Alesis monitors years ago, and have the Yamahas in storage. I only use the Mackies. I'll do a full mixdown on those, and then I'll crank up my modified Polk 2.3TLs powered by a PASS X-350 to check in a leisure listening situation. If those check out ok, I'll burn a disc and go audition in my car and van. The car gives me the best verification regarding the kick drum, and the van will tell me if the kick is too punchy. 

    The bottom line is, I wouldn't buy another set just to compare with. Sure, you'll hear different things, but this won't always help you translate your mix to the world better. I would take that $400 and invest it into the room acoustics. Hunt down a local, but long-standing mixing engineer to your studio and have him/her give you some advice in your room. That alone is worth more money than you have budgeted, and all you'd need to do is offer a snack and maybe a drink. Pay for an hour or two of their time, if they need it.

    With that said, many studios do have multiple sets, but the main reason is some engineers prefer one type/brand/model over another to mix with. Some even bring their own to work with. If you're going to shop for a set, I would save more money and look at upgrading to a set of ADAM's for example. There's some really good ones out there, but I wouldn't go buy another budget set. You won't gain much there.

    Anyway, that's my take. Best of luck!!

    Excellent advice!

    I have to agree here too.  Stick with one decent set of monitors and learn how to "listen" to them.  Use your $400 for a decent mic or something else you've been needing in your studio.

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    #21
    brconflict
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/17 11:32:55 (permalink)
    Someone else once posted (I wish I could recall the user for giving him credit for this), that one thing that's useful while mixing, or even Mastering is to get up out of your chair and walk around the room, even out into the hallway while the song is playing.

    I agree with that. Sometimes, just changing your position might reveal something nasty that needs repair, or something beautiful you should capitalize on by embellishing it in the mix. I've discovered many things wrong or right about a mix, when looking for that "vibe" that gets me moving. If a song causes me to play air-drums, it's doing something right! 

    Brian
     
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    Razorwit
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/17 11:41:42 (permalink)

    OP - You'll probably notice a trend in this thread. Essentially there are two opinions:

    1. Stick with and learn your existing monitor really well.
    2. If you're going to add monitors add some grot boxes (am I the only one that still uses that term?) like Auratones/Avantones.

    I'd like to point out that these suggestions aren't mutually exclusive. It's a good idea to learn your current monitors before getting something else that does more-or-less the same thing. It's also a good idea to check mixes on Auratones...people have been doing it for years and years (and I love mine). 

    Good luck
    Dean

    Intel Core i7; 32GB RAM; Win10 Pro x64;RME HDSPe MADI FX; Orion 32 and Lynx Aurora 16; Mics and other stuff...
    #23
    TraceyStudios
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/17 13:07:53 (permalink)
    Thanks for all the suggestions.  I think my main issue is this. I use ARC2, room correction and my mixes are actually translating reasonably well. However when I am mixing, I am having trouble hearing the definition of the bass and the guitar tones while mixed.  I have actually been using my ear buds ($20) to check before I render. The quality sucks, but it does tell me if my levels are ok and if the "blend" is close. Doesn't help me with clarity. I get great def when soloing a track, but as you know, i need to be able to adjust tone will mixing all channel to find the right spot. As many opinions as there are options.

    here are my songs I have been working on if interested. I know this isn't the song forum, but may give you an idea what I am struggling with. specifically "Under Rated". http://soundcloud.com/blakkmire
     
    I have really been working on the one song and I feel like I just can't hear the guitar/bass well enough, so that is why I am thinking of another set of monitor or headphones.  Make sense.  So now I am more unsure about what to do...LOL!

    AMD FX-6100 six-core processor 3.3GHz
    8 Gig RAM
    SONAR X3 Producer
    Tascam FW1884
    Mackie Blackbird
    Presonus Digimax
    Avalon U5
    BFD2
    SL Trigger
    Alesis DM8 Pro drums
    KRK Rokit 8s
    KRK 10s
    ARC2

    Folgers Dark Roast, a bit of crazy :)
    & lots of help from the forums!
     
    http://www.reverbnation.com/blakkmire
    #24
    konradh
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/17 13:49:00 (permalink)
    Although listening in ear buds is a good sanity check, that can be scary.  Every pair I have sounds different, and moving any of them a fraction of an inch in my ear completely changes the sound.  Confusing to say the least.

    Still, 95% of the world listens in ear buds so they have to be part of the process.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #25
    TraceyStudios
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/17 13:50:52 (permalink)
    I would really prefer not to use them, just do cuz its easy for now.

    AMD FX-6100 six-core processor 3.3GHz
    8 Gig RAM
    SONAR X3 Producer
    Tascam FW1884
    Mackie Blackbird
    Presonus Digimax
    Avalon U5
    BFD2
    SL Trigger
    Alesis DM8 Pro drums
    KRK Rokit 8s
    KRK 10s
    ARC2

    Folgers Dark Roast, a bit of crazy :)
    & lots of help from the forums!
     
    http://www.reverbnation.com/blakkmire
    #26
    bitflipper
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/17 19:08:46 (permalink)
    I use headphones often as a second reference. I wouldn't want it as my only reference, of course, but if it sounds good in the cans AND on the main speakers then that gives me a high level of confidence. 

    Plus headphones often highlight problems that aren't obvious on speakers. For one thing, I can listen to my mixes somewhere else where I won't be distracted by the track visuals scrolling across the screen. That alone makes headphones a worthwhile second reference.

    Beware of the notion that adding some crappy speakers will do wonders for your mixes. They won't represent crappy speakers in general - other crappy speakers will be crappy in very different ways. Most significantly, you're still hearing them in your room, with your room's distinctive imprint on them just as with your main speakers. Hi-fi speakers in the living room would be a better second-reference. 


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #27
    brconflict
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/17 19:22:14 (permalink)
    I routinely check my mixes in my vehicles. One is a Chevy Astro van, which has the stock system. The other is an Acura TL, with a system co-designed by Elliott Schiener, the engineer for a LOT of major recordings, such as Steely Dan's stuff. I'm used to listening to CD's in those two vehicles, and I wish I could actually sit with a mix and mix directly in the Acura. It's an incredibly good system. 

    I don't have a way to simply plug a PC into the car, so I have to burn lots of CD-Rs to play. This is part of my process, incidentally, but it works for me. I use the van for veto on the punchiness and low-end. Since it has its own protection from hard transients and overloading bass, I know when my mix is too puncy or bassy.

    There's lots of successful ways to get the translation you want, but I have many times been victim of having too many speakers to listen to. I know now, that's not a good thing when mixing. Only for playback referencing. 

    Brian
     
    Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
    #28
    TraceyStudios
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/17 22:24:38 (permalink)
    I purchased some beyerdynamic 770 DT770 PRO headphones today. As an expeirment, I mixed a song I was having trouble with (using only the headphones), and then listened on my krk's to hear the differrence and there was a huge differrence in the mix. So not sure which one is more accurate.  I am taking a break for the night.  Tomorrow going to print it and listen in the car, and other systems and compare mixes to see which one is more accurate.  Will let you know.

    Thanks for all the suggestions and comments!

    AMD FX-6100 six-core processor 3.3GHz
    8 Gig RAM
    SONAR X3 Producer
    Tascam FW1884
    Mackie Blackbird
    Presonus Digimax
    Avalon U5
    BFD2
    SL Trigger
    Alesis DM8 Pro drums
    KRK Rokit 8s
    KRK 10s
    ARC2

    Folgers Dark Roast, a bit of crazy :)
    & lots of help from the forums!
     
    http://www.reverbnation.com/blakkmire
    #29
    brconflict
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    Re:Monitor recomendations 2013/05/18 12:32:58 (permalink)
    Best of luck to you! If it helps, believe me, the ONLY way to get good at it is experience and listening to other people's work. Research, research, research. Then trial and error some mixes. Experiment. Even after you've finished a mix, if you're not on a deadline, play with the mix for fun. EQ some 250Hz under your snare drum and just see/feel what it does for you. Push an electric guitar through the S-Type console emulation with lots of drive. See how it works with the Tube Drive way up. Just see what happens. On a vocal, if you can get your hands on the Waves CLA-76 Blue or Black-face 76-Type compressor, hit the ALL button and see how this affects your lead guitar or lead vocal. 

    Just have fun with it. For fun, I'll tweak the "bump" of a kick drum last. There's a certain way I want to "feel" it in my masters, and I want it to be punchy, but not so much it draws attention to itself. Get good at that.  

    When you've made lots of changes and lots of tweaks, win or lose, your ears will better get to know your monitors. You'll begin to expect how others will sound. When you get there, you're well on your way of translation success in the real world. That's my experience all the way!  

    Brian
     
    Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
    #30
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