Mono bouncing Louder

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Melodeath
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/08 19:13:18 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: bitflipper

Im just trying to bounce a mono recorded track to mono

I'm talking about exporting a mono clip to a mono file.


At the top of the thread you said "I've got a single mono recorded guitar track, routed to the master buss. The master bus is peaking at -0.6. When I export the mix as mono, the exported file clips."

If you're exporting the master bus(s), that's stereo, not mono. Even if your project contains a single mono track, SONAR busses are stereo.

If, however, you did explicitly export a mono track, I would expect the level to be exactly what it was in the project, without the 3db increase.

EDIT: Sorry, I should have read to the end. I see you've already figured this out. Sorry for the redundancy.

No problem. That is indeed how I'm understanding it now. Thanks

ORIGINAL: mike_mccue


ORIGINAL: Melodeath
I never actually need to export in mono haha.


Right, and CJ busted his butt trying to explain it to you... it was obvious to me that you had chosen to not read or even attempt to read, or think, or even attempt to think, about what was going on.

haha.

bummer...

Don't be silly. It's not like that. I created the thread, obviously I would read and try to understand what repliers are trying to explain. If I replied with further questions, it shows I still didn't understand.

Furthermore, it really doesn't make a difference whether one makes a thread out of curiosity, or whether one makes a thread out of a business-need to export in mono. I like to get to know my software inside and out, whether I need to use all the features or not. I meant I don't need to export in mono in general. However, I dide decided to do it for a test, and encountered something I didn't understand.

Anyway, thanks for the help everyone.

And if anyone cares to verify the fact that the second pan law is 6 dB quieter than the first pan law on their setup, please be my guest.
post edited by Melodeath - 2009/06/08 19:24:09
#31
CJaysMusic
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/08 19:16:29 (permalink)
Don't be silly

But i want to be. Its all in good fun...

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#32
Melodeath
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/08 19:18:30 (permalink)
haha
#33
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/08 19:26:47 (permalink)
verified:



The Pan Laws affect audio in Sonar 6 in the following manner.

*** "w/o track automation" exports, the "Raw Tracks - No Automation/FX" preset was used
so panning does not affect export levels.

*** "with track automation" exports, the "Raw Tracks - No Automation/FX" preset was chosen first
followed by selecting "track automation" in the mix enable list. Panning will affect export levels.

Discussion and Testing Procedure are described at the end of the document.
Last Updated: 02/25/2007

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, sin/cos taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% +3 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB +3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +6 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +6 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-3 dB Center, sin/cos taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -6 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Stereo Mono Center 0 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% +3 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB +3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +6 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +6 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-3 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -6 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Stereo Mono Center 0 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-6 dB Center, linear taper
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB -12 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB - 6 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB -3 dB -6 dB -3 dB - 6 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -6 dB -3 dB - 6 dB
Stereo Mono Center -3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB - 3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB + 3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, Balance Control
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Discussion and Testing Method Description
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This chart describes Sonar meter values relative to the peak values of the clips in the tracks and not Sonar meters
compared to exported file levels, although this can be deduced from the data by comparing Playback values to Export
values. In almost all cases the playback (ie Sonar's meter) levels are exactly the same as exported file levels or
are +/- 3 dB different as a result of any stereo->mono conversion and/or pan law.

If you rely solely on Sonar's meters to determine levels and understand stereo->mono conversion then, in general,
you don't have to worry or think about levels. The issues develop when you really want to maintain the original
clip levels such as when exporting raw (and possibly edited) tracks for use in other software. However, since Sonar
is a mixer it will still send the clips through multiple types of processing even when you disable all the options
on the export dialog. The chart describes how clips are affected when exporting them through this minimal and
"unbypassable" set of processing.

There are some cases where center-panned tracks have different levels depending on whether track automation is
selected or not. They are not panned so track automation should theoretically not affect them. These only seem to
occur in the -3 and -6 center pan laws though.


Here is the testing method used to create the tables above:

1. Create 2 short (~30 second) audio files that are (severely) hard limited to have a near-constant peak of -8 dBFS
(for simplicity and easy reproducibility). For the stereo file, both channels should peak at -8 dBFS. These clips
are best created in a separate audio editor. Under theoretical conditions both files should show a peak value of
-8 dBFS.

2. Create project with 8 tracks. Put the mono clips on the 1st four tracks and the stereo clips on the other 4
tracks. Adjust the interleave and panning on the 8 tracks to correspond to the 8 scenarios.

3. Set the pan law.

4. Play back the project, look at Sonar's meter on each track, and compare them relative to the -8 dBFS theoretical
value.

To test the export values:

5. Click Edit->Select->None

6. Open Export dialog, create file name, uncheck all "mix enable" options except fast bounce, choose source as
"Tracks". Do not alter sample rate from the original sample rate of the clips.

7. Choose file type and check automation as appropriate

8. Export the files

9. Open the 8 individual files in an audio editor and read/record the peak value in the file relative to the
theoretical -8 dBFS value.

Repeat starting from step 3 for testing the other pan laws.

Again, the chart values are relative so for example, +3 dB = -5 dBFS and -3 dB = -11 dBFS, etc. With good naming of
tracks and export files along with competency with an external audio editor the process can be simplified and
streamlined. In fact, every value in the chart could probably be verified in under 60 minutes once the project and
clips are setup.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


#34
Jonbouy
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/08 19:41:49 (permalink)
The fact is though that the second pan law is 6 dB quieter than the first pan law on my setup.

Is there a reason for this?

OK, OK I was only kidding Mike, before you turn on me at 112 db. (hmm I wonder what that would be in stereo using the second pan law coming from mono, maybe a chart would help, anyone know where I could get one?)....

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#35
montezuma
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/08 19:46:50 (permalink)
What are you trying to say mike?

#36
Jonbouy
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/08 19:48:48 (permalink)
Really I wanted to know how I can get Sonar to go to 11 is this the right thread?

btw 11 is one louder.

edit: for clarification
post edited by Jonbouy - 2009/06/08 20:01:06

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#37
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/08 19:55:23 (permalink)
Well, I don't think the reason is sensible from a basic audio phenomena engineering.

I believe it is the result of some aspect of the under the hood programing rather than being representative of how a hardware mixer works... although I could be wrong maybe hardware mixers do work that way... without all the make up gain stages... but all the hardware mixers we see as end users have make up gain stages placed throughout them so it's not a clear analogy by any means.

I think the simple fact is that the state of our understanding is the result of altima_boy_2001's systematic documentation of these circumstances. He has generously shared his observations with us and that's all we know.

I believe the results were double checked by others and are accepted as accurate.

The only way to make it more complicated is to pester Noel to find out WHY the IS is.

Many people just use their favorite pan law and just get used to it.

I use 0 dB Center, Balance Control because it reminds me of my other gear.

It seems like scratching ones head over the great mystery while ignoring that it's all been figured out is just a little different than I do things I guess. :-)

all the best,
mike



#38
fitzj
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/09 05:57:14 (permalink)
I have followed this discussion and I hope CJ has recovered. Hopefully this will not send him back to the treatment room again.
I am still trying to get my head around this.

Say for example my pan rule is -3db center.

I have four tracks in mono all routed to the master bus.(master bus is stereo)

track 1 and 2 are panned 100 left
track 3 and 4 are panned 100 right
According to the chart playback is not effected but if I export it then all tracks will be -3db less.
Thats ok if I want it that way I can just leave it, but if I want the same level as playback when I export I need to boost it before I export?
So with a large mix this can get messy so is their an easy way to manage all these setting or would you need to have a record of all tracks as they will be panned in all directions creating their own space.
What happens when you bounce thus the same panning laws relevant
Is everyone still with me what I am trying to get across badly??


#39
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/09 07:24:03 (permalink)
It's a mess,

which is why I think most of us use 0 dB Center, Balance Control.

You should ask your self... "why do I want to use one of the other choices?" If you find a compelling reason then you'll need to live with the confusion on export.

0 dB Center, Balance Control seems to provide the most familiar and easy to understand results.

best,
mike


#40
Melodeath
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/09 10:15:43 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: mike_mccue

verified:



The Pan Laws affect audio in Sonar 6 in the following manner.

*** "w/o track automation" exports, the "Raw Tracks - No Automation/FX" preset was used
so panning does not affect export levels.

*** "with track automation" exports, the "Raw Tracks - No Automation/FX" preset was chosen first
followed by selecting "track automation" in the mix enable list. Panning will affect export levels.

Discussion and Testing Procedure are described at the end of the document.
Last Updated: 02/25/2007

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, sin/cos taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% +3 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB +3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +6 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +6 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-3 dB Center, sin/cos taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -6 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Stereo Mono Center 0 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% +3 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB +3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +6 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +6 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-3 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -6 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Stereo Mono Center 0 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-6 dB Center, linear taper
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB -12 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB - 6 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB -3 dB -6 dB -3 dB - 6 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -6 dB -3 dB - 6 dB
Stereo Mono Center -3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB - 3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB + 3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, Balance Control
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Discussion and Testing Method Description
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This chart describes Sonar meter values relative to the peak values of the clips in the tracks and not Sonar meters
compared to exported file levels, although this can be deduced from the data by comparing Playback values to Export
values. In almost all cases the playback (ie Sonar's meter) levels are exactly the same as exported file levels or
are +/- 3 dB different as a result of any stereo->mono conversion and/or pan law.

If you rely solely on Sonar's meters to determine levels and understand stereo->mono conversion then, in general,
you don't have to worry or think about levels. The issues develop when you really want to maintain the original
clip levels such as when exporting raw (and possibly edited) tracks for use in other software. However, since Sonar
is a mixer it will still send the clips through multiple types of processing even when you disable all the options
on the export dialog. The chart describes how clips are affected when exporting them through this minimal and
"unbypassable" set of processing.

There are some cases where center-panned tracks have different levels depending on whether track automation is
selected or not. They are not panned so track automation should theoretically not affect them. These only seem to
occur in the -3 and -6 center pan laws though.


Here is the testing method used to create the tables above:

1. Create 2 short (~30 second) audio files that are (severely) hard limited to have a near-constant peak of -8 dBFS
(for simplicity and easy reproducibility). For the stereo file, both channels should peak at -8 dBFS. These clips
are best created in a separate audio editor. Under theoretical conditions both files should show a peak value of
-8 dBFS.

2. Create project with 8 tracks. Put the mono clips on the 1st four tracks and the stereo clips on the other 4
tracks. Adjust the interleave and panning on the 8 tracks to correspond to the 8 scenarios.

3. Set the pan law.

4. Play back the project, look at Sonar's meter on each track, and compare them relative to the -8 dBFS theoretical
value.

To test the export values:

5. Click Edit->Select->None

6. Open Export dialog, create file name, uncheck all "mix enable" options except fast bounce, choose source as
"Tracks". Do not alter sample rate from the original sample rate of the clips.

7. Choose file type and check automation as appropriate

8. Export the files

9. Open the 8 individual files in an audio editor and read/record the peak value in the file relative to the
theoretical -8 dBFS value.

Repeat starting from step 3 for testing the other pan laws.

Again, the chart values are relative so for example, +3 dB = -5 dBFS and -3 dB = -11 dBFS, etc. With good naming of
tracks and export files along with competency with an external audio editor the process can be simplified and
streamlined. In fact, every value in the chart could probably be verified in under 60 minutes once the project and
clips are setup.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How ironic, considering all the jokes about me acting dense.
Well, I guess I didn't make it clear enough.

I wasn't ever talking about export, for that -6dB problem. I'm talking about PLAYBACK, NOT exporting. The meters themselves go up 6 dB less on playback when the pan law is -3dB. These are mono tracks panned center.

Playback clearly states -3dB int he chart, yet I'm getting -6dB. What am I not understanding correctly?
post edited by Melodeath - 2009/06/09 10:33:41
#41
fitzj
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/09 17:42:49 (permalink)
Melodeath your question was a much needed one about these crazy panning laws. I wish I knew the answer to your problem. I wonder is this the same for other DAW systems.
I was told to use -3 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power as it mimics a real mixing desk. Reading mikes email I stick with the default from now on.
Hopefully someone will come up with an answer to your problem.
#42
CJaysMusic
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/09 17:55:08 (permalink)
I wasn't ever talking about export, for that -6dB problem. I'm talking about PLAYBACK, NOT exporting. The meters themselves go up 6 dB less on playback when the pan law is -3dB. These are mono tracks panned center.

Playback clearly states -3dB int he chart, yet I'm getting -6dB. What am I not understanding correctly?

PAn Laws effect playback also. your still not grasping or understanding and all im going to say is that pan laws effect your signal. you have all the info to sort it out. You still ask questions that are not specific. what meters?? mono?/ stereo?? whats the interleave set at?? all these play a role in levels and yes the PAN LAWS DO play a role in playback.
Playback clearly states -3dB int he chart, yet I'm getting -6dB. What am I not understanding correctly?

Youll never get it then. Because what did you start your project out at?? what pan law?? You CANNOT change PAN LAWS in ther middle of a project!!!!!!!!!!what was the original signal level, if you can even answer that?? what makes it -6db durring lower playback?? Why -6db? whats your pans set at, whats your fader set at? Theres just too many things to articulate here thats youll just need to bear down and study it, to understand it
Cj

www.audio-mastering-mixing.com - A Professional Worldwide Audio Mixing & Mastering Studio, Providing Online And Attended Sessions. We also do TV commercials, Radio spots & spoken word books
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#43
fitzj
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/09 18:07:04 (permalink)
I did a test with mono track and this is what I got.. Mono track "C"sent to bus set at 0db Center. Its reading -3.9db same on track
I then used the 2nd panning law -3db center the track and bus are reading -10db
Panned it 100% right it read 0.9 on track and bus.
Panned it 100% left and it reads -7.0 on track and -7 on bus when using the -3db center panning rule.
#44
Melodeath
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/09 22:23:38 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: fitzj

Melodeath your question was a much needed one about these crazy panning laws. I wish I knew the answer to your problem. I wonder is this the same for other DAW systems.
I was told to use -3 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power as it mimics a real mixing desk. Reading mikes email I stick with the default from now on.
Hopefully someone will come up with an answer to your problem.


Yes, -3dB center, sin/cos taper seemed the best to me until I read how it seems all the other pan laws besides default cause some weirdness when exporting.
I'm glad at least one person thought this thread was worthwhile haha
ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic

I wasn't ever talking about export, for that -6dB problem. I'm talking about PLAYBACK, NOT exporting. The meters themselves go up 6 dB less on playback when the pan law is -3dB. These are mono tracks panned center.

Playback clearly states -3dB int he chart, yet I'm getting -6dB. What am I not understanding correctly?

PAn Laws effect playback also. your still not grasping or understanding and all im going to say is that pan laws effect your signal. you have all the info to sort it out. You still ask questions that are not specific. what meters?? mono?/ stereo?? whats the interleave set at?? all these play a role in levels and yes the PAN LAWS DO play a role in playback.
Playback clearly states -3dB int he chart, yet I'm getting -6dB. What am I not understanding correctly?

Youll never get it then. Because what did you start your project out at?? what pan law?? You CANNOT change PAN LAWS in ther middle of a project!!!!!!!!!!what was the original signal level, if you can even answer that?? what makes it -6db durring lower playback?? Why -6db? whats your pans set at, whats your fader set at? Theres just too many things to articulate here thats youll just need to bear down and study it, to understand it
Cj

I definitely understand that pan laws affect playback. I'm talking about the exact same situation each time. A single mono track/clip (panned Center) sent to stereo master buss. The meter for the track and the master bus always read the same as each other, and I am refering to these meters. When you switch to the second pan law, the signal drops 6dB. This is playback, not export.
I am not changing faders or pans, so there are no variables besides the pan law. I feel like you're reading too much into this. I'm not changing anything besides the pan law. It's all the same playback situation, except the pan law. All I'm doing is switching pan laws to see the difference. Why can you not change pan laws in the middle of a project? I don't see why it would have any affect other than what the pan law is labeled as. I would expect the signal to be 3dB less on the second pan law than ont he first pan law, but it is 6dB less.

ORIGINAL: fitzj

I did a test with mono track and this is what I got.. Mono track "C"sent to bus set at 0db Center. Its reading -3.9db same on track
I then used the 2nd panning law -3db center the track and bus are reading -10db
Panned it 100% right it read 0.9 on track and bus.
Panned it 100% left and it reads -7.0 on track and -7 on bus when using the -3db center panning rule.


Yes! Finally someone understands haha :p
#45
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 07:33:39 (permalink)
Are you guys using test tones to make your observations? Or music content?


#46
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 07:39:44 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Melodeath


ORIGINAL: fitzj

Melodeath your question was a much needed one about these crazy panning laws. I wish I knew the answer to your problem. I wonder is this the same for other DAW systems.
I was told to use -3 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power as it mimics a real mixing desk. Reading mikes email I stick with the default from now on.
Hopefully someone will come up with an answer to your problem.


Yes, -3dB center, sin/cos taper seemed the best to me until I read how it seems all the other pan laws besides default cause some weirdness when exporting.
I'm glad at least one person thought this thread was worthwhile haha
ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic

I wasn't ever talking about export, for that -6dB problem. I'm talking about PLAYBACK, NOT exporting. The meters themselves go up 6 dB less on playback when the pan law is -3dB. These are mono tracks panned center.

Playback clearly states -3dB int he chart, yet I'm getting -6dB. What am I not understanding correctly?

PAn Laws effect playback also. your still not grasping or understanding and all im going to say is that pan laws effect your signal. you have all the info to sort it out. You still ask questions that are not specific. what meters?? mono?/ stereo?? whats the interleave set at?? all these play a role in levels and yes the PAN LAWS DO play a role in playback.
Playback clearly states -3dB int he chart, yet I'm getting -6dB. What am I not understanding correctly?

Youll never get it then. Because what did you start your project out at?? what pan law?? You CANNOT change PAN LAWS in ther middle of a project!!!!!!!!!!what was the original signal level, if you can even answer that?? what makes it -6db durring lower playback?? Why -6db? whats your pans set at, whats your fader set at? Theres just too many things to articulate here thats youll just need to bear down and study it, to understand it
Cj

I definitely understand that pan laws affect playback. I'm talking about the exact same situation each time. A single mono track/clip (panned Center) sent to stereo master buss. The meter for the track and the master bus always read the same as each other, and I am refering to these meters. When you switch to the second pan law, the signal drops 6dB. This is playback, not export.
I am not changing faders or pans, so there are no variables besides the pan law. I feel like you're reading too much into this. I'm not changing anything besides the pan law. It's all the same playback situation, except the pan law. All I'm doing is switching pan laws to see the difference. Why can you not change pan laws in the middle of a project? I don't see why it would have any affect other than what the pan law is labeled as. I would expect the signal to be 3dB less on the second pan law than ont he first pan law, but it is 6dB less.

ORIGINAL: fitzj

I did a test with mono track and this is what I got.. Mono track "C"sent to bus set at 0db Center. Its reading -3.9db same on track
I then used the 2nd panning law -3db center the track and bus are reading -10db
Panned it 100% right it read 0.9 on track and bus.
Panned it 100% left and it reads -7.0 on track and -7 on bus when using the -3db center panning rule.


Yes! Finally someone understands haha :p




Here's the thing....

Are you saying you have found a typo or mistake in Altima_Boy_2001's published findings?

I mean it's surely OK to report a discrepancy, typo etc in the data... but I can't figure out what you are trying to say.

What the heck are you trying to say?

best,
mike


P.S. Please answer the question about the test tone first.

P.S. Please Ask fitzj about test tones as well and then ask if there are any "stereo" effects on that bus that might be effecting the output after the pan law has its effect.




#47
CJaysMusic
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 07:40:14 (permalink)
I definitely understand that pan laws affect playback. I'm talking about the exact same situation each time. A single mono track/clip (panned Center) sent to stereo master buss. The meter for the track and the master bus always read the same as each other, and I am refering to these meters. When you switch to the second pan law, the signal drops 6dB. This is playback, not export.

Dude, Seriously, for the last time, this is normal operation of the pan laws. Pan laws effect playback signals. I dont know what else i can say tro you to get it thru to you.
I feel like you're reading too much into this.

Im trying to help you, but your not listening. Hello??

I did a test with mono track and this is what I got.. Mono track "C"sent to bus set at 0db Center. Its reading -3.9db same on track
I then used the 2nd panning law -3db center the track and bus are reading -10db
Panned it 100% right it read 0.9 on track and bus.
Panned it 100% left and it reads -7.0 on track and -7 on bus when using the -3db center panning rule.

This is normal. Thats why you cant change the pan laws after you recorded...

Yes! Finally someone understands haha :p
All I'm doing is switching pan laws to see the difference. Why can you not change pan laws in the middle of a project? I don't see why it would have any affect other than what the pan law is labeled as

Haha??? Really?? you still don't get it. Im sorry for that. Maybe its my fault that you don't understand that changing pan laws, change the signal. For that, im sorry.
I don't see why

I know..

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#48
Melodeath
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 14:15:16 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: mike_mccue


ORIGINAL: Melodeath


ORIGINAL: fitzj

Melodeath your question was a much needed one about these crazy panning laws. I wish I knew the answer to your problem. I wonder is this the same for other DAW systems.
I was told to use -3 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power as it mimics a real mixing desk. Reading mikes email I stick with the default from now on.
Hopefully someone will come up with an answer to your problem.


Yes, -3dB center, sin/cos taper seemed the best to me until I read how it seems all the other pan laws besides default cause some weirdness when exporting.
I'm glad at least one person thought this thread was worthwhile haha
ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic

I wasn't ever talking about export, for that -6dB problem. I'm talking about PLAYBACK, NOT exporting. The meters themselves go up 6 dB less on playback when the pan law is -3dB. These are mono tracks panned center.

Playback clearly states -3dB int he chart, yet I'm getting -6dB. What am I not understanding correctly?

PAn Laws effect playback also. your still not grasping or understanding and all im going to say is that pan laws effect your signal. you have all the info to sort it out. You still ask questions that are not specific. what meters?? mono?/ stereo?? whats the interleave set at?? all these play a role in levels and yes the PAN LAWS DO play a role in playback.
Playback clearly states -3dB int he chart, yet I'm getting -6dB. What am I not understanding correctly?

Youll never get it then. Because what did you start your project out at?? what pan law?? You CANNOT change PAN LAWS in ther middle of a project!!!!!!!!!!what was the original signal level, if you can even answer that?? what makes it -6db durring lower playback?? Why -6db? whats your pans set at, whats your fader set at? Theres just too many things to articulate here thats youll just need to bear down and study it, to understand it
Cj

I definitely understand that pan laws affect playback. I'm talking about the exact same situation each time. A single mono track/clip (panned Center) sent to stereo master buss. The meter for the track and the master bus always read the same as each other, and I am refering to these meters. When you switch to the second pan law, the signal drops 6dB. This is playback, not export.
I am not changing faders or pans, so there are no variables besides the pan law. I feel like you're reading too much into this. I'm not changing anything besides the pan law. It's all the same playback situation, except the pan law. All I'm doing is switching pan laws to see the difference. Why can you not change pan laws in the middle of a project? I don't see why it would have any affect other than what the pan law is labeled as. I would expect the signal to be 3dB less on the second pan law than ont he first pan law, but it is 6dB less.

ORIGINAL: fitzj

I did a test with mono track and this is what I got.. Mono track "C"sent to bus set at 0db Center. Its reading -3.9db same on track
I then used the 2nd panning law -3db center the track and bus are reading -10db
Panned it 100% right it read 0.9 on track and bus.
Panned it 100% left and it reads -7.0 on track and -7 on bus when using the -3db center panning rule.


Yes! Finally someone understands haha :p




Here's the thing....

Are you saying you have found a typo or mistake in Altima_Boy_2001's published findings?

I mean it's surely OK to report a discrepancy, typo etc in the data... but I can't figure out what you are trying to say.

What the heck are you trying to say?

best,
mike


P.S. Please answer the question about the test tone first.

P.S. Please Ask fitzj about test tones as well and then ask if there are any "stereo" effects on that bus that might be effecting the output after the pan law has its effect.




Yes, I suppose this could be a typo. I assumed it wasn't since the pan law page said "verified," so I figured mayeb somethign wasjust different on my setup.

This is my procedure, I cannot speak for fitzj, however his results appear the same as mine.
I'm not using test tones. I'm using a recorded clip of music content. It is mono, panned center, routed to stereo master bus Center with no effects. The clip was recorded with the pan law on the default, 0dB center, sin/cos taper (I mention this since CJ is saying the pan law cannot be changed int he middle fo a project). The meters on the mono track and stereo bus both peak at -0.6dB when I play through the clip. Then, all I do is go to audio options and change the pan law to the second option (-3dB center, sin/cos taper). I then play through the lcip again without changing anything else. The meters now peak at -6.6dB


ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic

I definitely understand that pan laws affect playback. I'm talking about the exact same situation each time. A single mono track/clip (panned Center) sent to stereo master buss. The meter for the track and the master bus always read the same as each other, and I am refering to these meters. When you switch to the second pan law, the signal drops 6dB. This is playback, not export.

Dude, Seriously, for the last time, this is normal operation of the pan laws. Pan laws effect playback signals. I dont know what else i can say tro you to get it thru to you.
I feel like you're reading too much into this.

Im trying to help you, but your not listening. Hello??

I did a test with mono track and this is what I got.. Mono track "C"sent to bus set at 0db Center. Its reading -3.9db same on track
I then used the 2nd panning law -3db center the track and bus are reading -10db
Panned it 100% right it read 0.9 on track and bus.
Panned it 100% left and it reads -7.0 on track and -7 on bus when using the -3db center panning rule.

This is normal. Thats why you cant change the pan laws after you recorded...

Yes! Finally someone understands haha :p
All I'm doing is switching pan laws to see the difference. Why can you not change pan laws in the middle of a project? I don't see why it would have any affect other than what the pan law is labeled as

Haha??? Really?? you still don't get it. Im sorry for that. Maybe its my fault that you don't understand that changing pan laws, change the signal. For that, im sorry.
I don't see why

I know..

CJ, I appreciate you trying to help me. However, I just feel like we've been going back and forth about different things. One person arguing about apples, another about oranges.

I know that pan laws affect playback. The problem is that the laws are affecting playback in a way that is unexpected (to me, at least). When I change to the second pan law, I expect the signal to be 3dB quieter, bc of the affect of the pan law. However, playback is 6dB quieter. This is why I'm confused. I'm expecting the pan law the cause a difference in playback, and it's causing a different difference than I expect. that's what the issue is here. I'm not changing anything else besides the pan law when I do this test, so I think I'm correct to assume it's the pan law that's causing the anomaly.

Why exactly are you saying you can't the pan law in the middle of a project? It might mess with how you need to adjust volumes of tracks you panned, but again, I don't see why changing the pan in the middle of a project "shouldn't be done." Youa re saying the pan law actually affects the signal that is recorded? Even if that is true, why would the second pan law of -3dB actually be 6dB quieter?
#49
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 14:34:24 (permalink)
"This is my procedure, I cannot speak for fitzj, however his results appear the same as mine.
I'm not using test tones. I'm using a recorded clip of music content. It is mono, panned center, routed to stereo master bus Center with no effects. The clip was recorded with the pan law on the default, 0dB center, sin/cos taper (I mention this since CJ is saying the pan law cannot be changed int he middle fo a project). The meters on the mono track and stereo bus both peak at -0.6dB when I play through the clip. Then, all I do is go to audio options and change the pan law to the second option (-3dB center, sin/cos taper). I then play through the lcip again without changing anything else. The meters now peak at -6.6dB"

The detailed description of your experience is in direct correlation and agrees 100% with the chart above.

Which is why we're are left to wonder what it is you are still curious about. What are you curious about?

BTW, I suggest working with test tones.... when measuring musical content with just metering it is unlikely you will make accurate enough measurements to justify generalized statements about perceived differences.



#50
Melodeath
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 14:59:36 (permalink)
Haha, I can see why that would be frustrating. I just don't see how what I said matches the chart. I'm getting -6dB on playback. According to the chart, I should be getting -3dB. How am I reading the chart wrong? Chart: Mono clip, mono interleave, playback = -3dB. The only thing that says -6dB is for export as stereo, which is not what I'm doing.

Thanks for helping
#51
CJaysMusic
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 16:14:48 (permalink)
CJ, I appreciate you trying to help me. However, I just feel like we've been going back and forth about different things. One person arguing about apples, another about oranges.

huh?? what ever you think is wrong, is not. Its just that pan laws will change your signal. That is all. Can you wrap that around your head. This question has been answered way way way back. but yet you still think there's a problem. There isnt. This is what pan laws do, now go do what you do, or is this what you do???
I'm expecting the pan law the cause a difference in playback, and it's causing a different difference than I expect.

What where your expectations, since you never ever heard of them before?? what's your seeing in normal pan laws at work in your project. Nothing else, nothing more Melodeath.

Edit
Chart: Mono clip, mono interleave, playback = -3dB. The only thing that says -6dB is for export as stereo, which is not what I'm doing.


Like ive been saying for about 10 times now. Because you cannot change pan laws in the middle of a project
post edited by CJaysMusic - 2009/06/10 16:26:35

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#52
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 16:53:19 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Melodeath

Haha, I can see why that would be frustrating. I just don't see how what I said matches the chart. I'm getting -6dB on playback. According to the chart, I should be getting -3dB. How am I reading the chart wrong? Chart: Mono clip, mono interleave, playback = -3dB. The only thing that says -6dB is for export as stereo, which is not what I'm doing.

Thanks for helping



you're gonna drag this out til the bitter end... are you sure you don't work for Steinberg?


drumroll please...........................................................................................................
...................................................................................................................................
.............................................................. ..................... ......... .. .. ............. ................

track automation


#53
plectrumpusher
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 16:54:17 (permalink)
Are they really pan LAWS or , more likely , just suggestions ????


read




If you haven't got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart.......Then you are just an old sour fart!!
#54
Melodeath
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 17:20:31 (permalink)
Guys, I assure you I am not trying to anger anyone or anything. For some reason, there seems to be a huge rift in our communication and I have no idea why. It's like we're all speaking different languages.

What where your expectations, since you never ever heard of them before?? what's your seeing in normal pan laws at work in your project. Nothing else, nothing more Melodeath.

Never ever heard of them before? I knew what pan laws were well before I started this thread. My expectation is that when I switch to the second pan law, my signal should show up -3dB on playback, not -6dB.

Like ive been saying for about 10 times now. Because you cannot change pan laws in the middle of a project

CJ, I've asked you numerous times WHY this is. Yet all you keep saying is that you can't change pan laws in the middle of a project. Why? Changing pan laws in the middle of a project is supposed to drop your signal 6 dB? Pan laws affect how signals are actually recorded into Sonar? I keep asking you why you can't change pan laws in the middle of a project, and all you keep saying is you can't change pan laws in the middle of a project. Yes, pan laws affect playback. But why is the signal dropping 6dB instead of 3dB?
ORIGINAL: mike_mccue


ORIGINAL: Melodeath

Haha, I can see why that would be frustrating. I just don't see how what I said matches the chart. I'm getting -6dB on playback. According to the chart, I should be getting -3dB. How am I reading the chart wrong? Chart: Mono clip, mono interleave, playback = -3dB. The only thing that says -6dB is for export as stereo, which is not what I'm doing.

Thanks for helping



you're gonna drag this out til the bitter end... are you sure you don't work for Steinberg?


drumroll please...........................................................................................................
...................................................................................................................................
.............................................................. ..................... ......... .. .. ............. ................

track automation

This is beyond frustrating LOL

Am I reading the chart wrong to think the track automation only applies to exports?
I am not exporting. This is playback only. From the chart, it seems that automation affects EXPORTING, not playback. I am not exporting.
Am I reading this chart wrong? I'm looking under the "playback" heading, and all I see for my situation is -3dB. -6dB is located under track automation for EXPORTING, which I am not doing

#55
CJaysMusic
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 17:46:29 (permalink)
Why? Changing pan laws in the middle of a project is supposed to drop your signal

Thats the way it works for crying out loud
Yet all you keep saying is that you can't change pan laws in the middle of a project. Why?

Because it changes the signal for the 15th time...Forcrying out loud

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#56
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 17:46:37 (permalink)
It probably annoys me more that you persist in referring to this pan law; -3 dB Center, sin/cos taper, constant power, as the "second one". I suspect it's symptomatic of your real commitment to this thread.


-3 dB Center, sin/cos taper, constant power

Clip Type = Mono

Track Interleave = Mono

Panning Playback = Center

Export Mono = -3 dB
w/o track automation

Export Stereo = -3 dB
w/o track automation

Export Mono = -3 dB
w/ track automation

Export Stereo = -6 dB
w/ track automation


Hey if you can't take it seriously at least you can have fun with the colors.

This isn't sophisticated enough for a Steinberg spy... Team Reaper maybe?

I suspect that I can already guess the next question.
post edited by mike_mccue - 2009/06/10 18:02:23


#57
Melodeath
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 18:13:59 (permalink)
LOL

I give up, guys

Mike, you can make it as big and colorful as you want. The fact remains that you keep quoting the EXPORTING section of the chart. I am talking about playback, not export. I am not exporting the clip in this experiment. I have a mono track routed to a stereo master bus. The meters are going up 6dB less than when I use the 0dB sin/cos taper pan law to playback the same audio/project.
Obviously, "the second one" is short hand, and not necessarily a lack of effort to understand this thread. I never said "the second one" when it wasn't clear I was tlaking about the second pan law option in Sonar. Boy...

I am acknowledging the fact that I might be misunderstanding something, but instead of trying to explain what I might be misunderstanding in the chart, you just keep pasting it bigger and bigger. That doesn't help. Does "Export" in the chart not mean Exporting from Sonar? Maybe "export" is being used to mean "exporting" to a master bus?
post edited by Melodeath - 2009/06/10 18:24:12
#58
CJaysMusic
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 18:17:23 (permalink)
Mike, Forgett this thread, He's a TROLL...Theres no other expanation

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#59
Melodeath
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RE: Mono bouncing Louder 2009/06/10 18:22:05 (permalink)
CJ, that's ridiculous.

I'm asking you guys why the ground is wet, and you guys keep informing me the sky is blue. Fitzj seems to have been the only one who truly understood what I was saying.
#60
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