Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard?

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stratcat
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/15 10:26:10

ORIGINAL: MandolinPicker

ORIGINAL: Daddy?!

What is really sad to me is watching my 12 year old daughter. She took piano lessons for a few years and was quite good. But now she has no interested at all. She listens to rap and some new rock (Panic at the Disco, etc). She had a breif interest in Maroon 5 when that cd was big and I thought there was hope, but now they are old news to her... It's funny, to her anything 6 months old is "old"!!! I guess I feel a little disappointed that I am probably in the best band I have ever been in right now and my daughter has zero appreciation for it. This is what the media has done to the next generation...

But I do think there is hope. We play mostly classic rock and it amazes me that some places we play college kids show up and love what we are doing. It's kind of like back in the 70's when "oldies" from the 50's were cool.



First off, keep on playing, and make sure your family is involved. As she gets older, she will begin to get an appreciation for your music. My daughter went through the same thing. She is now 26. She now plays guitar and sings lead in our group. For a kid growing up, bluegrass (especially gospel) was not the most "cool thing" to listen to. Now as an adult, she can appreciate it. Her primary music of choice is Country, but is starting to listen to some of the older stuff and is realizing the difference between todays "country" and the genuine article.

The recording industry (notice I don't refer to it as the 'music' industry) has done a true injustice to musicians and their audience in their quest for quarterly profits. They have always been a greedy lot, and that has really gotten out of hand (legislation, law suits, Clear Channel, etc). The technology of today allows them to do this. Where I find hope is that the same technology is being used against them. The fact that we can get a studio up and running for pennies is powerful. The ability to post it on the internet for anyone to hear is a boon to the independent artist. In the end, good music will always make its way to the top. People will find it.

One last thought for you. As a parent, there is nothing more satisfying than playing music with your child, regardless of their age. Even my granddaughter (who will be four in January) comes up and 'plays' with the keyboard and autoharp, and is now starting to sing and make up her own songs. That is a joy that money can't buy, and one the 'suits' can't take away.

Just some rambling thoughts from an old man...



Thanks for the encouragement! Maybe there's hope.
Daddy?!
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/15 16:23:55
I'd love to see Kanye West in a room with say...Dann Huff, Jeff Berlin, Vinnie Colauita & perhaps Patrice Rushen. That cocksure mouth (insert joke here) would finally (hopefully) be muted, as he'd quickly realize that he is not quite equipped enough to contribute in any meaningful way. A bit of humility may do the young buck a bit of good.

Not trying to hate on the mate, I just don't appreciate his disrespect of that video music awards show that he was supposedly 'dissed' on.
mattplaysguitar
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/15 21:27:42
stratcat, i think there is DEFINATELY hope. Im only 19 so there is alot of that rap **** around me all the time, god a hate it. Thing is at that age, i think most kids just listen to the music thats on tv and in the charts. But once you get to about 15-16 you start to listen to more and more of the older stuff. I have so many friends who listen to stuff that was written when they were born. Wait a few more years and hopefully she will be alright. Then again, i know lots of girls who are my age and still only listen to the stuff thats come out in the past 6 months :( I know the beatles is quite popular with alot of uni students.

Could go either way but goodluck!
yep
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/16 18:39:46
Occasionally, I get a sort of snarky, petty, slightly mean-spirited pleasure when I hear some top 40 record clumsily using an effect like autotune in a way that sounds particularly fake or artifact-laden. But what is really sad to me is not the use of autotune to make bad singers sound better, but when autotune is used to make good singers sound bad.

Round pegs are sonically hammered into square holes by the recording industry and there’s nothing new about that. What is new is that the musicians seem to be down with it. It seems to me like more and more of the musicians I work with WANT everything to be triple-tracked guitars and stereo-widened, sample-replaced drums and layered, hundred-take vocal performances with any pitch gestures or idiosyncracies hammered out in the studio.

If there were a Neil Young or an Otis Redding or a Sam and Dave out there today I wonder if we’d even be able to tell. It seems to me like they’d be looking for recording techniques to make them sound more “normal,” and that the technology would deliver. And instead of having personal, unpolished musical messages that people would still want to listen to in 30 years, we’d have another bland, slick, disposable pop tune good for the Shrek 3 soundtrack and a Pepsi commercial before it dies out in 3 years (Remember Chumbawumba?) .

In the hands of a skilled engineer, something like pitch correction can be done so transparently that you can’t detect it. And that’s a good thing. We can salvage the once-in-a-lifetime performance by the tired, impoverished, studio-frightened, just-signed singer who delivers her heart and soul on take 42 and blows out her vocal chords and sings flat just before the last chorus. 10 years ago, we’d have to go over budget and do another 20 takes a week later and end up with a B- instead of an A+, and possibly permanently damage the confidence of a genuine young talent.

Autotune also allows people who can’t sing to sound like they can, and that’s also a good thing, even if our innate sense of artistic fairness rebels against it. I’m sure the first players of fretted string instruments were ridiculed for needing frets to hit the right note, but the fact is it allows more people to make music that they’re happy with and to feel like they did a good job and have something to show to their family and friends and that’s a good thing.

And if a bad musician gets a hit record because an engineer made them sound good, who cares? It’s not like mediocre musicians with hit records is anything new. That’s what makes our engineering skills valuable. I pride myself on my ability to make slack-jawed plank-wankers sound like rock stars. There were ways to achieve this before autotune, that’s for sure. If everyone who walked through the door was John Coltrane they could just set up an omni mic in the middle of the room, press record, and fire my sorry ass. Our job is to produce hits with the artists we’re hired to work with, and anything that allows us to make them sound like they know what they’re doing is a godsend, because God knows most of them are clueless.

What IS a bad thing is that people are using autotune to fix things that SHOULDN’T BE FIXED. Can you imagine if some engineer went back and “corrected” Keith Richard’s guitar playing? Or digitally “repaired” the snarly atonality from Keith Morris’ early records with Black Flag? Or “perfected” the raw, untrained sound of Grandmaster Flash with modern studio techniques? Or “fixed” Bob Dylan’s intonation from the 60’s? I guarantee you, if those records were made today, AT LEAST three of the four examples above would be some overblown, autotuned, Shania Twained, hundred and fifty takes monster of triple-tracked everything with super-compressed, smiley eq’d ugly-hype sound and that the musicians WOULD GO ALONG WITH IT. In fact, they’d probably outright DEMAND it.

They’d thank the engineer at their grammy speech and talk about how the studio was like a whole nother instrument. They’d have a whole team of specialists recreate the studio sound live so they won’t be embarrassed on SNL (BTW, it’s amazing how many acts on SNL really NEED autotune and DON’T use it-- I mean, it only costs like $300, right?).

There is nothing sacred about the 12-tone scale, it’s made up. Totally arbitrary, invented for convenience. There are an infinite number of “notes” between A and Bb, and there is nothing inherently wrong with any of them. In non-western music they are quite ordinary. Guitar players routinely squeeze notes and fret harder in ways that don’t quite count as a “bent” note, but that add tremendous expressiveness and emotional urgency to their music. Singers and songwriters who are not classically trained use these “in-between” notes all the time.

Wholesale pitch correction steamrolls over all of this. It takes a forest and tells it that every color must be either red, orange, yellow, green, or blue and that’s it.

Orchestral music and high-level jazz music uses the twelve tones to create rich, resonant, tension-laden harmonies, delivering new and complex sounds that are far greater than the twelve-note scale encompasses, but folk and popular music has always done things very differently. It has been made of solo musicians and small ensembles without classical training in theory and composition who just played what felt right, unconstrained by musical awareness.

From the open-tuned bluesman grabbing random frets and bending till they sound right to punk bands playing in the key of fretboard dots to psychedelic hippie singers moaning and howling away over randomized clusters of organ notes, the stuff that has made popular music worthwhile has NEVER been the ability to perfectly sing a one-four-five melody without dissonance, it is the ability to create something greater than the sum of the melodic parts.

Forcing that stuff into a rigid melodic structure can kill it in a heartbeat, and what’s awful is that the new breed of popular musicians are being conditioned to think that that’s what it should sound like. They WANT to sound musically bland. They hear any interval more complex than a triad and think something’s out of tune. They think that doing the whisper trick to get throaty vocals and having a double-tracked wall of Mesa Boogie amp emulators is what makes them sound edgy and exciting. They think that stupidly busy computer-generated melisma makes them sound soulful. And they think that any trace of pitchiness or tonal idiosyncrasy sounds “old.” So they all want to sound the same, like a video-game soundtrack.

I bet that somewhere out there on the radio there’s a modern-day Bruce Springsteen or a Donna Summers or a Nirvana or an O’Jays that we don’t even know about because modern production techniques have ironed out any trace of musical personality from their performances. And I’ll bet the engineer on the session was ordered to remove the musical gonads from the record by tin-eared mooks and a producer earning points who didn’t want any pitch information interfering with their masterpiece of sweetened musical wonder bread. And the sad thing is, I’ll bet that the musicians not only allowed this to happen, but actively encouraged it.

Cheers.
fep
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/16 19:22:57
Wow Yep, great read, geat points, colorful language, that should be published in a bunch of music magazines and nonmusic magazines also. Seriously, you should send that out.

P.S. fep are my initials (Frank Edward Pratte), no relation to Yep.
jacktheexcynic
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/16 20:53:46
ORIGINAL: Silence Please!
And than there is Audioslave at the end of "Show me how to live"... but at least that is obviously an intentional effect... and sounds pretty cool.


nope. flick your throat while changing notes. ten bucks says no auto-tune on that one.
jacktheexcynic
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/16 21:00:12

ORIGINAL: newfuturevintage

And than there is Audioslave at the end of "Show me how to live"... but at least that is obviously an intentional effect... and sounds pretty cool.


...and if you listen to the pre-mixes leaked before the album was released, (the ones that haven't been steamrollered by Rubin), that effect is there, even though these versions just sound like rough mixes of initial tracks. If you listen closely, to me, it sounds like Chris Cornel is actually hitting his throat to make the mal-autotuned sound.


shame on me for not reading the whole thread first... and yes that record was destroyed by the mastering engineer. if you know how to get one of those leaked copies i would love to know...
lukasz
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/17 13:15:15
just curious how do you hear that someone uses autotune? im kind of curious. is it just that a note is placed on the wrong halfstep or what? or does it actually kill the overtones. just curious.
mattplaysguitar
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/17 20:32:01
Say for example someone sings a perfect A then they quickly slide thier voice up to a D, only they are flat. With auto tune you bring that flat note up to the D. If not done well you can here the pitch correction where there is the note change. It kinda sounds like an electric yodel... Or it may just sound too perfect to be possible, though that could just be a good singer. Probably the best way of telling is to play around with a pitch correction software yourself and here what it sounds like when you make drastic changes, OR, listen to the verse of the panic at the disco song called 'nails for breakfast tacks for snacks'. Also the Cher song 'Do you believe in love after love'. I think thats the song. These two songs are examples of intentional pitch correction used for an effect. Once you understand what it sounds like it gets easier to hear it in pro recordings. One listen of maroon 5's song 'she will be loved' and you should be able to hear something. If you listen to the chorus when he sings '...in the pouring RAIN'. When he sings rain he has a large change in the note he was singing and that first example i gave you is what is happening in this song. Well thats what it SOUNDS like is happeing to me. It may just sound like that cause i tihnk he is changing from chest voice to head voice, not sure. Everything i have said here has already been said in this thread so far, so if you need any clarification, read the whole thread.

Hope that helps in some way
lukasz
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/17 20:34:53
i think that Cher song was overtly vocoded though. i dont think that was an autotune hack job.

but yeah i read the rest, ill check out those songs. thanks for the advice.
post edited by lukasz - 2006/12/17 20:54:26
mattplaysguitar
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/17 20:38:44
What's 'vocoded' mean? The song was a while ago as well wasn't it? How long have autotune programs been out for? Were they avaliable when she recorded, i really have NO idea about this... I don't know if she recorded it 5 years ago or 10 or watever...
RAiN0707
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/18 14:59:33
Look up pop band Eiffel 65 and listen to any of their tracks. It's for effect but still it's annoying as all hell after about 2 min. :)
altima_boy_2001
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/18 22:31:21
Well, when someone releases the <insert favorite singer here> human voice soft synth we won't need auto-tune anymore...Type in the lyrics, map syllables to midi notes, and let automation tweak it as you like.

In 20 years we'll all be complaining that everyone on the pop charts is overusing the Christina Aguilera vocal suite for their latest single.

And that Bob Dylan expansion pack is definitely worth the extra $300...Better tell the wife to hold off on that portable Ultra-Super-HD-DVD player purchase so I can write a throaty political folk ballad about the impending mini ice age.
losguy
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/18 22:31:57
ORIGINAL: lukasz
i think that Cher song was overtly vocoded though. i dont think that was an autotune hack job.

It sounds like vocoding, and the processes are related, but it indeed was autotune. It's been out for over 10 years.
jacktheexcynic
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/19 21:40:00
ORIGINAL: altima_boy_2001

Well, when someone releases the <insert favorite singer here> human voice soft synth we won't need auto-tune anymore...Type in the lyrics, map syllables to midi notes, and let automation tweak it as you like.

In 20 years we'll all be complaining that everyone on the pop charts is overusing the Christina Aguilera vocal suite for their latest single.

And that Bob Dylan expansion pack is definitely worth the extra $300...Better tell the wife to hold off on that portable Ultra-Super-HD-DVD player purchase so I can write a throaty political folk ballad about the impending mini ice age.


the good news is that we'll be able to write "edgy" music simply by singing and playing the instruments ourselves... it'll be retro and hip, produced on faux-beige computers and analog mixers with real working wires...
daverich
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/20 04:03:21
very interesting discussion.

I use melodyne - but I use it as a time saver. Perhaps I shouldn't, but it seems alot easier to nudge up or down a note than go into to the booth just to re-take something that I know will fix easy.

What I have found myself doing though is insisting the rhythm section is recorded as live. This has added a ton of feel to our newer stuff which before I would've quantised out.

I do also agree that pop-music is becoming incredibly sterile,- great I say - it makes independent music all the more interesting, and the quality of good indy music has never sounded so good.

Kind regards

Dave Rich
yep
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/21 12:55:04

ORIGINAL: daverich
...I do also agree that pop-music is becoming incredibly sterile,- great I say - it makes independent music all the more interesting, and the quality of good indy music has never sounded so good...

Just for the record, when I talk about "popular music," I mean it in the broad sense of "music of the people", not intending any reference to commercial success or potential. I suppose it might be clearer if I used some term like "non-classical" or something. But the stuff I said above about "popular music" also applies to underground hip hop or alternative folk-rock or electronica or whatever. I didn't specifically mean top 40.

Cheers.
gnie
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2006/12/22 08:47:59

ORIGINAL: yep

What IS a bad thing is that people are using autotune to fix things that SHOULDN’T BE FIXED.

Absolutely.

There is nothing sacred about the 12-tone scale, it’s made up. Totally arbitrary, invented for convenience. There are an infinite number of “notes” between A and Bb, and there is nothing inherently wrong with any of them. In non-western music they are quite ordinary.

I know what you mean, but to be fair, the 12 tone scale is based upon the overtone series. It's been tweaked, however, to accommodate modulation. It was part of the homogenization of Western music. Our loss, I think.

Forcing that stuff into a rigid melodic structure can kill it in a heartbeat, and what’s awful is that the new breed of popular musicians are being conditioned to think that that’s what it should sound like. They WANT to sound musically bland. They hear any interval more complex than a triad and think something’s out of tune.

The world-wide spread of Amerikan pop has resulted in other cultures losing touch with their own heritage. Musicians in India despair that young generations are losing their sensitivity to the smaller intervals. The tyranny of our system is contributing to the demise of these great musical dialects.


simpsim
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2007/01/10 13:49:38
Ok, just to keep on with the original topic, some recent blatant tweaking can be heard on 'No Promises' by the UK's very own Shayne Ward (X Factor Winner). Also for good measure, try Katie Price (AKA Jordan) as featured in the album she's done with Peter Andre... Simply Awful!!!

I think what is killing the music industry nowadays is that someone can produce the most professional sounding 'Music' without having any music experience whatsoever. Whilst this allows more people into the genre and allows for competition, as with everything else, it's been widely open to abuse. The Auto-tune concept is certainly no exception. What's even more annoying is that some of these productions are so blatantly tweaked (and not for effect either) that it's almost as if the music producers are laughing in the faces of the music buying public.

Next time you go to buy a Boyband CD, or download a Dance track, think of how little time and effort actually went into making the product you're buying and how much profit they're going to make out of you buying it.
j boy
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RE: Most botched Auto-Tune correction you ever heard? 2007/01/10 14:59:41
FWIW - The Cher vocal effect ("Believe") was made using a Digitech Talker, not AutoTune.
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