Music Production Sounds too Old?

Gid'day,

As the year comes to a close I have re-accessed my work, having contacts in the music biz and received feedback (catchy, melodic but a little old hat) and having posted my work on the CW Song forum for feedback I feel that most of the songs and instrumentals posted there are superb but 'old-hat' and also not to forget those great 'old' cover songs.  (no offense intended), I do love all those old classics.

I guess most of the works posted in the CW Song-Forum are mostly from older age groups? (40+),  I'm also 40+, but I don't want my songs to be labelled 'old-hat' don't get me wrong I love all the old stuff...Classic Orchestrations, Blues, Jazz, BBKing, Beatles, Eric Clapton, Rolling Stones, Led Zep, Jeff Beck, Pink Floyd, Metallica, (too many more bands to list), right up to current new bands!  Everything from Jazz, Rock, Pop Rock, Heavy Metal to Prog'House, Hip Hop, IDM and everything inbetween.

*  I don't want my music to be labelled as 'Old Hat'.   Yeah although I prefer to tweak my own sounds my music productions are sounding a little too cookie cutter, old-hat and needs to sound modern, I want to produce more modern cutting edge productions. That's what this discussion is all about!!!  (NOTE: I am not talking about mixing, audio processing techniques).

I have done a lot of reading up (manuals, reviews) on the latest plugins, listened to lots of demo's particularly (1)..Spectrasonics Omnisphere, (2)..Heavyocity Evolve, (3)..Sample Logic Synergy, (4)..NI Absynth, (5)..Rob Papen's Blue.  I'm interested in modern, otherworldly sounds.  I think these plugins can be useful for cutting edge 'song' production which is my main goal, but of course they're ideal for filmscore work (particularly Evolve and Synergy) but I think those two plugins can be useful in some way for song production?. I just need to think 'Otherworldly' LOL!!

I've been experimenting with what I have, Ultra-Analog synth, SonikSynth and Cakewalk's classic's (various softsynths).  Most of those sounds are OK but a little old and static compared to a lot of the newer plugins such as Omniphere and Synergy. 

I've used CC# to add automated changes to the tonal characterics to produce 'evolving/motion pads'.   Also experimented with 'layering textures', synth pads, voices/choir, strings/brass ens, then adding lot of effects such as stereo delay which certainly helps add a more modern sound.  Also been experimenting with 'arpeggios' to add motion/rhythm to my soundscapes.

Arpeggios? since I have pretty good piano skills I found it better to create my own in the PRV because to me the PRV is the ultimate-unlimited workspace for a more flexible creation of arpeggios. OK! So now I have pads that evolve (CC#, Layers and Velocity), and I have modern sounding motion/rhythm (Arpeggios).

WHOA!! Having to do all that is a lot of extra work!! Maybe if I had something like Synergy I could get all that happening quicker?.  I guess music production is a labour of love.  It's not only about what you have it's how you use it.  There are various workflow methods to achieve good end results, the goal being 'Modern, Cutting Edge Music Productions'.  And afterall that effort the 'Song' still remains to be the most important factor,,, good lyrics and performances, strong melodies, hooks and good arrangements.


 

Screw that noise :-)

What do you expect when you send your music in to be reviewed by a 25 year old kid trying to pay off a degree in music marketing?

At the same time, ask your self how the Raising Sand album swept the Grammy's a few short years after the Amy Whitehouse old school RnB album did the same thing... a  few years after Bluegrass was seemingly *invented* with the release of Oh Brother Where Art Thou... right around the time that Rod Stewart scored his best selling productions of "standards".

Has any one heard of the Avett Brothers? If you haven't... you will.

Do not let a critic's ignorance of culture dissuade you from pursuing your inspiration.

all the best,
mike

mike_mccue


Screw that noise :-)

What do you expect when you send your music in to be reviewed by a 25 year old kid trying to pay off a degree in music marketing?

At the same time, ask your self how the Raising Sand album swept the Grammy's a few short years after the Amy Whitehouse old school RnB album did the same thing... a  few years after Bluegrass was seemingly *invented* with the release of Oh Brother Where Art Thou... right around the time that Rod Stewart scored his best selling productions of "standards".

Has any one heard of the Avett Brothers? If you haven't... you will.

Do not let a critic's ignorance of culture dissuade you from pursuing your inspiration.

all the best,
mike

Very nicely said Mike! In some ways music evolves just like life on earth does. It constantly changes, and just like different species which are off shoots of life, we have different genres that also evolve in their own ways. However, unlike life, music also follows in fashion, and fashion revolves as well as evolves. In music as in fashion, ideas from the past come back into style as with Amy Winehouse and mini skirts etc. While the melody and groove may sound old, we do it differently and give it a modern edge, and that's evolution. Think about it. All the music we make today has evolved directly from the very first music we made hundreds of thousands of years ago.

Who cares if you sound 'dated'? Why not? Its your sound

If you want to freshen up your writing then don't think that a new VSTI will provide the magic, trust me all you'll end up doing is cycling through endless cool sounding presets and not doing anything!
 
Why not set yourself a number of challenges?
 
e.g. Today I will write in 3/4 time or
       Today is polka day!
 
Forcing yourself to think outside of your usual self inflicted constraints is a great way to come up with new and fresh ideas and sounds without having to fork out for new gear!

BTW, MIKE....Raising Sand is my favorite album in like the last decade.  Very oldschool, for sure.

This is not a comment on your music or recordings in particular, just a general statement...

I think a lot of the music here on the forum is maybe "old hat" not because of production techniques, the sounds of our instruments, synth samples, etc. as much as it is just a reflection of maturity and where we are at this point in our lives. What makes a lot of these newer bands sound "fresh and new" IMO is just that youthful energy, reckless abandon, etc. I'm not saying that you can' t have that in your 40s and 50s. Bruce Springsteen's "Living in the Future" off his Magic CD has tons of energy. The Red Hot Chilis Peppers can still get real funky and crazy, but on their last album most of the songs were kinda laid back. But you know what? It sounds more natural. Sometimes bands in their 50s singing about partying and rock-n-roll sound pretty lame. You shouldn't try to force attitude. Make the attitude genuine and honest, then find creative sounds and music ideas that help express that attitude.

Listen to Distant Towers' CD (pick it up if you haven't already!). It sounds fresh and creative, but doesn't sound like they're trying to pretend they're in their 20s.

(NOTE: I am not talking about mixing, audio processing techniques).

I don't understand how you can remove these two very important structures of any produced song. In fact, you say, "'layering textures'", which depends on the mixing and audio processing to make it work. Ensembles, various newer or different synth packages and even plugins can not just be thrown at a song, they have to be mixed in and processed properly to make any difference. So ignoring the mix or audio processing may cripple any efforts at reaching the goal.

That being said, I am not entirely sure what you are looking for. I am not trying to be argumentive, maybe it is more ignorance on my part, since others have already posted comments that make it appear that they understand your point. So, if you would bear with me, could you post a link or two to the type of sound you wish to emulate or achieve? Even better, if you could post links to the same song, one done "old hat", and the other done with a more modern or contemporary feel?

One other thought, what is considered "modern, cutting edge, and contemporary" today has a very short shelf life, since tomorrow (or just several hours) ushers in a new "modern, cutting edge, and contemporary". In contrast, "old hat", or "traditional" or even "cookie cutter" can be referred to as time tested, and, more importantly, marketable over a larger spectrum of the buying public.

Later
Albert 

Thanks guys :-)

Wow! So many excellent comments, advise :-)  I don't know where to begin to reply to each of you except to reply in general overview of what's been said.  Thank you all, greatly appreciated.

I don't want to give up my roots (which dates to back to 60's, 70's music, I think I'm trying to do a 'fusion' of old with modern genres.  I guess that's fitting for me because I like a very wide range of styles  right up current genres.

I don't dismiss audio processing and mixing as not important.   For this discussion I want to focus on the 'source'.   Isn't it funny, no matter how well you try to mix it when things are not right it's usually at the 'source' thereby the 'sound', the 'performance' and the 'technique', and the way that performance is done is important.

I always take critics comments with a grain of salt.   The same applies when I comment on other's songs in the Song-Forum.  That said.... I have sat in on meetings with managers (aged in their 50's) who would talk about for example; 'the beat' needs to be not only modern sounding but played in such a way that its more like 'Prog'-House' or 'Hip-Hop'   Ahem!! I like to inject a little 'fusion' I guess that would be more interesting.

OK! So the music is done, superbly mix, mastered!  Then there's the 'marketing' and costs to consider, it's easier to sell someone who is already known (I'm sure the press will be on to them) even if these new artist are known on some Soap (TV-Series) but can't sing that good.

Now compared to selling someone who is unknown, for the unknown usually record companies prefers to hear a more contemporary style, if it sounds old-hat? they be a little concerned and place it in the 'hard to sell', then discuss how much money is the record company willing to gamble with?.  No one can predict if a song will hit #1 or at worse reach the top-ten.   All these TV shows and Radio stations have program managers that decide who gets a spot and how often!  Getting lots of TV and Radio play is important.

bdickens


"No one ever erected a statue to a critic."

Not so:
 
http://www.pbase.com/steveyaphotos/image/87512476
 

dlogan: Listen to Distant Towers' CD (pick it up if you haven't already!). It sounds fresh and creative, but doesn't sound like they're trying to pretend they're in their 20s.

Will do :-)

I have been to the site and listened to one of the new songs! Sounds great, very well done.  The 'arrangements', along with the 'fusion' of various sounds with the bass, drums, guitars certainly gives it the edge.  Wish you guys great success :-)

Isn't it funny, no matter how well you try to mix it when things are not right it's usually at the 'source' thereby the 'sound', the 'performance' and the 'technique', and the way that performance is done is important.

That makes perfectly good sense, and explains what it was you were talking about in the original post in a way that filters through the tangled web of gray (and getting grayer) matter that is perched between my hairy ears.

I don't think I could ever reach the goal you are seeking, though, since I can not force myself to get my head around the groove, hip-hop, beats driven format of the contemporary music scene. It appears I am truly too old, 'cause I just don't even want to try.

So, color me antique, yellowed and smoke stained, faded and cracked.

Later
Albert

As Hesh said on the Sopranos:
A hit is a hit is a hit.
Nothing more complicated than that.
Good song wins out over style any day.

But since the guy said "old hat":
it is all in the energy of the performance (or in many cases today, the mix of the computer's performance!). The radio today has tons of tunes that are in your face mix-wise, but when THAT SONG comes on, you wait for the big moments in it.  The buildup to the hook is the new hat. But in the end, hooks are hooks.

I don't listen to the Top 40 Charts often, but a few weeks ago I listened to what's there!  I noticed on the Australian charts a song (can't remember the title or name of artist)... done really well and when you break it down to just the piano it would be like something you would have heard 40 years ago.  But to be fair it is still a great song, what gave it the edge are the strong hooks, great performances, great sounds, superb arrangements with clever use of contemporary sounds weaving in/out including nice build-ups.  All superbly mixed and mastered.

bdickens

dmbaer

bdickens


"No one ever erected a statue to a critic."

Not so:
 
http://www.pbase.com/steveyaphotos/image/87512476
 

Shaw is usually remembered as a playwright.

Well, of course he is.  But he was also an influential, widely read music critic.  Sorry, but I just couldn't resist.