Helpful ReplyMy Biggest Fear with X3...

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Daylaa
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2013/10/16 02:59:45 (permalink)

My Biggest Fear with X3...

...Is the Pro Channel causing huge drop outs.
 
My experience of X2 was a nightmare because every time I tried to sweep a frequency using the Pro Channel EQ, everything dropped out or buzzed or froze. Constantly.
 
I spent 2 weeks trying to eliminate everything that could be causing it - I went as far (and beyond) my level of comfort with that but nothing solved it. It was the biggest reason I had to stop using X2. X2 is now sitting in my PC like a big broken ocean liner that I wish I could sail again.
 
I'm really hoping X3 has fixed this issue. I've been watching the forums for weeks now and X3 seems to be pretty stable. But if I upgrade and find that the Pro Channel is glitchy for me still - I think I would cry/throw my PC out of the window/give up/want my money back (again).
 
I should say that I have a very powerful and capable PC and everything else I use on it (Home Studio 7 and Power Director 11) work flawlessly.
 
Can anyone comment on whether this issue is still around in X3??
Best regards.
Dave

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#1
FastBikerBoy
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 03:10:15 (permalink)
I can't answer the question on the problem as I've never had it, but one setting that does affect dropouts is the I/O buffer settings found in Prefs--->Audio--->Sync and Caching.
 
Try adjusting those. There is no "one size fits all" figure, whatever works on your system is the right setting. Too large a setting can cause problems as can too small. The buffer might take too long to fill (if too large) or not fill quickly enough (if too small). Either can contribute to dropouts.
 
A little bit of trial and error at your preferred latency setting is time well spent. If you have problems at all settings then raising the audio driver buffer should help.
 
HTH
#2
SoundRaider
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 05:27:38 (permalink)
Well I had drop outs in X2 only if I was not on ASIO - but I guess you are, don't you?
 
Check the ASIO driver setups. May be that the buffers are not sufficiant and you have a latency issue. You find this in:
 
<Audio>/<Driver Settings>,  search the "ASIO Panel..." button. If your latencies are to short, depends on the hardware/driver combination, you will have drop outs, freezing etc. as you describe it.
 
By the way. Why not to check the issue using an other EQ. Disable the Pro-Channel EQ and plug in a decent EQ as an substitute. If you have again drop outs etc. than it's a latency issue in general rather than a Pro-Channel problem.
#3
Daylaa
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 06:02:18 (permalink)
Sound raider. That's just the thing. I tried that, as did I try what you suggest biker boy. Sonitus eq worked fine in X2. As did all other pc modules. I could only conclude it was a bug and not a latency issue. I have no latency in home studio. I knew of one other guy on here who had the same issue but apart from that I was very alone with it and hence why I fear there will have been no fix from cake.

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#4
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 08:38:37 (permalink)
Can you explain how you were trying to sweep the frequency?
Was it through envelopes or doing it in real time through the UI. If you can repro it log an issue and send a test project that can demonstrate it since it could be specific to what parameters you are changing, or what other plugins are in the project too. Try doing on a simpler project to troubleshoot it.

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#5
Daylaa
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 13:10:51 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Can you explain how you were trying to sweep the frequency?
Was it through envelopes or doing it in real time through the UI. If you can repro it log an issue and send a test project that can demonstrate it since it could be specific to what parameters you are changing, or what other plugins are in the project too. Try doing on a simpler project to troubleshoot it.




Hi Noel - many thanks for your reply. I was sweeping frequencies in real time using the UI. In fact, hitting the 'gloss' button always severely froze things. 
 
I'm not very knowledgeable on certain parts of your request - could you explain to me how to:
A) Properly log an issue
B) Send a test project
 
Many thanks,
Dave

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#6
dubdisciple
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 13:13:57 (permalink)
I had that problem in X1 extended but it pretty much went away after a couple of patches.  X3 for me seems to be free of that, even when I am using ACT controllers.
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Daylaa
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 13:24:15 (permalink)
I'm hoping it will be one of these issues that gets fixed 'indirectly', since it's probably not common enough to be 'directly' fixed. 

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dubdisciple
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 13:27:46 (permalink)
The list of fixes is pretty extensive.  Not sure if you have taken a look at them.  My computer has issues unrelated to Sonar that affect Sonar (My video card drivers cause dropouts at times but thankfully not on renders or recording) and I still don't get those kind of issues.  I can honestly say my system runs better under X3 than X2 even though none of the specific problems I had were directly addressed. 
#9
Daylaa
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 13:55:28 (permalink)
Dubdisciple - I've looked at the fix list, but I didn't spot anything relevant to my issues. Can I ask: How do you know it is your video card drivers that cause drop outs?
 
Noel - If you're reading this, I have just opened a new project using 'normal' template.
I opened only 'True Pianos' and recorded a little chord sequence which I then quantized and made into a groove loop so that it lasts long enough to test with. (I did not set 'loop points' for this experiment).
I then hit play, opened the Pro Channel EQ UI and started randomly sweeping frequencies. Playback 'buzzed' and stuttered several times. Hitting the gloss button did it too. The problem is intermittent and a few seconds can pass without any buzzes, but it always comes back.
No other tracks in the project. No plug ins.
My soundcard sample rate is 512, as is the sample rate in 'Sync and Caching'.
I have tried ALL combinations of buffer sizes - it has never taken away the issue.
 
Q: Could I have a setting somewhere in Sonar that's causing the issue without me knowing it?
Q: Could my soundcard be causing the problem? Even though Home Studio 7 has no latency issues.
Q: Could Rain Computers have installed X2 incorrectly when I purchased the PC from them?
 
Thanks,
Dave
 
 

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#10
JonD
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 14:12:14 (permalink)
As has already been mentioned, your video card can make a huge difference.  Some vid cards and/or their drivers can create all kinds of weird glitches.  Make sure you have the latest drivers for your card. (This is no guarantee, but at least easy to do).
 
Next, I would look at your M-Audio interface.  You can eliminate that (or its drivers) as the culprit by first trying it with the ASIO4ALL drivers.  Or, if still no joy, switch to your onboard soundcard (w/asio4all drivers) and see if the problems go away.

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dubdisciple
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 14:14:33 (permalink)
Daylaa..after months of frustration and search engine digging, I realized it was a known issue.  Many Nvidia cards cause latency issues.  Since I am on a laptop (have not gotten around to rebuilkding desktop yet) I am screwed on video card.  One way to tell for sure iis to use something like latencymon http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon
 
It will show you exactly what causes latency issues.  For me it turned out it was wireless card and video card.  The wireless can just be turned off when using Sonar but the video issue is a pain.
#12
Daylaa
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 16:00:32 (permalink)
Thanks guys, but I went through all of this before.
 
I have always had the latest MAudio drivers and have used LatencyMon which was inconclusive. I thought it could be the wireless adaptor but it wasn't. I have no sound card issues with Home Studio 7 AT ALL - so does this illiminate it being a soundcard/driver issue??
 
My PC is a purpose-built Audio machine - the soundcard installed on it SURELY must be one that's not gonna get in the way of things. I've not installed another soundcard.
 
I went round and around like this before - nothing fixed it. It must be a bug in X2.

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#13
brundlefly
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 16:22:35 (permalink)
Daylaa
It must be a bug in X2.



Possibly, but at the very least, it's an interoperability issue with your particular hardware/configuration or we'd all have the same issue. And it's impossible to know whether that interoperability issue is due to SONAR or something in your PC not adhering to a standard or even whether the lack of a standard is allowing a conflict of some sort that isn't really anyone's "fault".
 
Unless it's something at the mobo level, chances are good you could fix it by making a change to your system, and Video/Audio interfaces seem the most likely targets at this point. I realize it's difficult (and expensive) to experiment in this realm, but it may be a long time before the Bakers are able to replicate the problem on their hardware, so you might have to bite the bullet.
 
I once had to make an interface change because of a problem with an old M-Audio interface (Omnistudio USB) that I could not replicate on other machine or even with the crummy onboard soundcard in my DAW. Neither M-Audio nor Cakewalk could reproduce it to investigate, so I was stuck.
 
Just look at it as an opportunity to upgrade. 
 
 

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#14
Daylaa
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 17:05:32 (permalink)
Thanks Brundlefly - it's certainly something I've been thinking about.

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#15
Silicon Audio
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 18:30:00 (permalink)
When I first started using some Pro Channel effects, particularly the console emulation modules, I got all kinds of pops and crackles and figured something was wrong with them.  I didn't used them for a few months and just figured something in my system didn't like them.  Everything else in Sonar seemed to be fine.
 
Then one day, I decided to spend some time fault-finding.  Turned out that, by default, power management in Win 7 had minimum and maximum CPU levels, which were set at something like 5% minimum and 100% maximum.  After I changed the lower level to 100%, all my Pro Channel problems went away.  Either Windows was running my CPU too slow, or just the fact that it was tweaking the speed of the CPU on the fly must have been causing the problem.  Funny thing was, I'd never had a problem before with other things.
 
What I'm trying to point out, I guess, is that there is huge scope for system config to cause these kinds of issues.

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#16
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/16 19:00:08 (permalink)
This one does sound like a CPU load issue or possibly a bug in the eq plugin itself. 
Its very unlikely to be video related - you should be able to rule that out more or less by automating the parameters and then closing the PC UI. If the glitching only occurs when manipulating the params through the user interface, then its possible that something is blocking the audio processing for too long.
Watch the windows CPU meters while you are doing this from task manager. Do you see excessive spiking while you are sweeping the eq?

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#17
DaddyV
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/17 06:51:39 (permalink)
Check and make sure your computer power management is set to "High Performance". Next thing would be to unpark your cores if not already done? There is also a setting in the SONAR config file to make X3-2 use the cores. I forget which one off the top of my head? When working you will see lines moving in the control panel at the top of X3-2. 

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#18
Beepster
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/17 08:42:02 (permalink)
One thing I haven't seen mentioned... Did you install the "a" patch (or even Quickfix) or were your initial tests on the original release? Just a shot in the dark.
 
You've already got expert advice coming your way so the following is purely anecdotal. When I first installed X1 (with the d patch) I was having the same issue with the PC and many other parameters. I had just built my system from scratch and it was MORE than powerful enough. After inquiring here and calling tech support it was pointed out that my PCI based interface might be the problem (bridged as opposed to native PCI on the MOBO). It was suggested that I get a new interface (I was pretty annoyed about that but I did it and I'm now quite happy with my 18i6) and use the Sweetwater Optimization Guide to tweak my system (minus a couple steps that screw up Sonar). Once the new interface was installed everything was fine, I did the tweaks and then even the old interface worked better (after spending $300... lol. Still like the 18i6 better and the Layla can now live on my old system again).
 
Then a couple months later X2 came out (and I missed all the specials... bad timing) and tweaks during playback issues lessened even more. Even after the tweaks and new interface in X1 if I was using the heavier duty plugs audio would go silent during the tweak (very annoying). This was no longer the case in X2.
 
X2, for me, was better in many ways than X1. However it does still have a ton of annoying glitches. Just not audio dropout related. More graphical and user input weirdness.
 
/rambling old dude story
#19
stevec
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/17 11:32:55 (permalink)
Beepster
 
/rambling old dude story



OK, that make me laugh.   
 
Not that I'm old or anything.    At least not to sexagenarians or above.  
 

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#20
Beepster
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/17 13:30:16 (permalink)
stevec
Beepster
 
/rambling old dude story



OK, that make me laugh.   
 
Not that I'm old or anything.    At least not to sexagenarians or above.  
 




By the numbers I'm not that old. On the creaky curmudgeon scale though I'm a solid 11 out of 10.
 
Now it gets off my lawn or it gets the hose again.
 
:-p
 
Also [nigel_tufnel] what's wrong with being sexy(genarian)?[/nigel_tufnel]
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stevec
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/17 13:53:44 (permalink)
I wonder what would happen if you hosed Nigel off your lawn...    Would that hose then go to 11?    Hmmm...
 

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#22
Beepster
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/17 13:58:37 (permalink)
All I know is you can't exactly dust for vomit.
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stevec
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/17 14:04:23 (permalink)
Uhh... I'm not really sure how to reply to that one...    

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#24
lawp
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/17 14:17:45 (permalink)
it's a fine line between clever and stupid
#25
Beepster
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/17 14:36:52 (permalink)
So much gold. Mayhaps I'll queue that up later tonight.
 
In the meantime I should continue my studies on the saddest key of all.
#26
Daylaa
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/17 17:05:00 (permalink)
Thanks for your suggestions guys - I will attempt them one by one.
 
THIS IS THE MOST ANNOYING PART OF MY PROBLEM: It vanishes. Then returns. Then vanishes. Yesterday I decided to have another crack at changing sample rates on my sound card and in sync and caching. 1024 seemed to work great yesterday and the buzzing/freezing disappeared. Pro Channel EQ worked beautifully. So today, feeling confident, I turn on my computer, boot up the same test project from yesterday, still on 1024 samples and... The problem is back. There's just no explanation for it. THEN, I put my sample rate to 256 - and the problem disappeared again!?!?!? ARRRGH!! It literally drives me insane.
 
It will return - probably next time I boot up.
 
What the hell is going on. The problem is intermittent.
PLEASE HELP ME. I will send 50 pounds to the person who fixes this issue for me. I swear it. This is ruining my passion.
 
 

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#27
FastBikerBoy
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/17 17:18:12 (permalink)
Have you got anything running in the background that is drive or CPU intensive? I had something similar a few days ago and then realised my backup software was running a full backup. Paused it and it stopped.
 
That's what I get for being in my studio at 2 am.
#28
Teds_Studio
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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/17 17:26:46 (permalink)
Daylaa,
 
I had the exact same problem when sweeping frequencies in the PC with X2.  I just tried it today with X3 and it never stopped playback.  I could always count on it stopping playback in X2 when I would sweep a freq in the PC EQ.  But it seems to have been fixed in X3.
 
I started a thread about this problem several months ago when it was happening to me in X2...but never found a solution.

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Re: My Biggest Fear with X3... 2013/10/17 17:30:24 (permalink)
Okay... yeah this sounds like something is running in the background. Like an updater or a scanner or something. Have you disabled startup programs? Anti viruses? Pretty much anything that works in the background?
 
I mentioned the Sweetwater Optimization guide... http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/pc-optimization-guide-for-windows-7/
 
As I said ther are certain things in there that don't play well with Sonar but I forget which. However this was what was recommended to me by Cake tech support. Mainly look at the parts about disable programs and letting things like your drives and ports go to sleep (power management).
 
Also you should probably do a virus/malware scan to make sure nothing hinkey has creeped onto your system and is trying to phone home. I use avast for more thorough scans then Malwarebytes and sometimes Spybot Search and Destroy then use CCleaner to clean up the registry and whatnot.
 
CREATE A SYSTEM RESTORE BEFORE ALL THAT... especially the CCleaner stuff (but it CCleaner will prompt you to create a restore point anyway). If some goes wrong then you can return to that point.
 
There is the DPC latency checker too which I've never used but supposedly it can hunt down weird crap that causes problems like you are describing. Really though you should just call support to get this worked out if you can.
 
Good luck.
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