+1 on the best thread ever. Id like to see more of this stuff. I actually learned quite a bit from the thread.

Thanks.

Hi panup,

Great info! Btw, I assume you are now on Sonar 64-bit?

vicsant

Hi panup,

Great info! Btw, I assume you are now on Sonar 64-bit?

Not yet... still going with Win XP SP2 32bit.
Lack of 64 bit drivers for TC Powercore is the main reason.

http://tcsupport.custhelp...d_adp.php?p_faqid=1634

Windows XP:
At the present time, there are no plans for supporting Windows XP Pro x64 Edition.

Windows Vista:
Click here for all information on Windows Vista.

Windows 7:
64 bit drivers for Windows 7 are currently in development.

I'll go to Win7 before next Summer and hope manufacturers make 64 bit drivers to all essential plug-ins before that.

Yeah, I'm sure its a pleasure to record bands who can actually play. 

The problem is that most people who want to record their songs suck at playing and sadly you can't be picky, or else you'd be broke (or more broke than broke I should say).

I'm sure it was more rewarding to be an engineer back in the 80's :-P.

Sonar Review part 9
Creating song from scratch

Good music can be created with any program. It's not really the equipment but the composition that matters. I'm not talking about New Age kind of sound carpet but real songs.

User interface of the DAW will, however, affect composition and arrangement work. Great idea can be ruined by bad behaving DAW user interface. Inspiration vanishes if things don't go smoothly during the creative process of song making.  

I have a mini cassette recorder in my car for new song ideas. That's real anti-HiFi :-). I may even record melodies in my poor cell phone. Before I had recording studio I made a lot of four track recordings with Fostex C cassette recorder. Today I could record new ideas using $ 8000 signal chain for just one microphone. I could. But I don't bother. I sit in control room, grab the cheapest nylon string acoustic and record demo with talkback microphone!

This way I don't let my 'Engineer me' disturb creative process. He would be worried of hiss and background noise of the talkback microphone and lack of metronome. 'Artist me' is not intersted in recording techniques. He enjoys the music.

OK, now all initial ideas are saved for future use. Time for Round 2. I listen to the first demo and use tap tempo program to extract suitable tempo. I've learned that in relaxed mood tempos are too slow and in hyperactive mood they are too fast. I calculate the 'real' tempo by subtracing the mood. Scientic? Not! But I have noticed that in the morning song may sound too fast. In the evening it may sound too slow.

We are lucky that in Sonar tempo can be changed so easily. Groove loops stretch automatically and AudioSnap can strech audio tracks that were recorded in wrong tempo.  Changing key of the song is as easy as eating Cake. In my opinion Sonar is a great platform for song creating purposes.  Program package includes tons of sounds, probably something for every conceivable music style.  And in my opinion, it is easy to learn basic tasks of Sonar.  It is user friedly program.

However, simplicity is illusion.  Advanced users can create incredibly complex mixes. And because PC's are so fast, you don't need ProTools HD kind of DSP accelators to handle 150 tracks and 300 plugins. In fact, Sonar can export ready project faster than ProTools that always does mix in real time.  What a waste of time that is if you know that project sounds perfect and you need to export the whole album to stereo wav as fast as possible!

Back to reality: In Sonar realtime export must be used, too, if External Inserts are in use. But in this case realtime limitation is not Sonar's fault. And finally External Inserts really work as they should have long time ago already. Now Cakewalk could publish an big advertisement: External Inserts work now smoothly and they are sample accurate! If you reverse the message it goes like this: Finally we were able to make External Inserts work. The first version was useless crap. We hope nobody really tried to use it. That was partly a joke but I'm serious, too. If new feature is hyped in advertisement then I expect that it really works.

Back to the subject.

I have had more free time in my studio than normally for last week. I have had time to write my thoughts of Sonar and my working methods.  I have also recorded my own music. Recording studio is musicians sandbox :-).  Now there are 97 tracks in the project and real drums are lacking... Almost ten soft synths are in use and maybe 40-60 effects. CPU usage is arond 40%. Disk usage is under 20%. This project is in Seagate 1TB hard disk, without RAID. Two Firefaces, buffers 512. Everything running smoothly?

No. :-( Sonar works perfectly for a while but little by little small crackling appears. It gets worse all the time if playback is continued. If Audio Engine is disabled/enabled all works again for a while.  Problem exist only in 8.5.1. 8.3.1 plays perfectly.  I tried to change some AUD.INI variables but with no success. I froze all soft synths and almost all plugins but that dit not cure the problem.  Maybe 'rock solid' RME drivers are not solid with 8.5.1? I don't know.

Nonetheless, working with Sonar feels relaxed. Sonar is stunning program, despite occacional tehnical problems. Sonar is almost as good as my mini cassette recorder.

Thanks for reading!

Thanks :). I appreciate for your feedback.

This is serious review, not prose! Don't compare me to Mixerman... I could never write as fluent English as Mixerman does because English is not my native language.

I'll take a look at the new RME drivers. Hope they cure the problem!

Hehehe, keep 'em coming.

:-)

Sonar PROS

Things why I use Sonar, not ProTools (forgot to mention in the first post):

- PT HD is no way worth its price. HD1 is too light. HD3 is too expensive.
- No track (or any other artifical) limit  (PT LE).
- Automatic plugin delay compensation (PT LE).
- No need for dedicated, overpriced hardware
- Advanced use of new technology
- Price difference between TDM and VST plugin prices is huge
- Huge soft synth and plugin collection.
- Use of industry standard is not important - sessions can be imported/exported anyway as waves and OMF.
- Better user support. Cakewalkers really listen to us!
- Great community. I have learned a lot by reading this forum.

Why not Steinberg's products, Nuendo or Cubase?
Dongle. And versions I tried before Sonar were always buggy as hell.  User interface feels weird because Pro Audio's interface is the one I compare all to.

Reaper?
It did not exist in its current form few years ago.  Some of my friends use Reaper and they like it. Maybe it is not powerful enough for my use.

FL Studio?
I have the XXL Producer Edition.  I use it ReWired to Sonar.  It is another great program that gets my reputation. Image-Line offers free updates until end of the world - not a bad deal!!!  But I don't keep any wave files in FL side, just synths.  FL Studio's step sequencer and piano roll are my favorites. Btw, 8.5.1's step secuencer looks familiar...

Price of Sonar Producer Edition is next to free if compared what you get. 

No single word against Sonar in this message. Roland, where can I send my bank account number?

panup, you are a riot!  I haven't laughed so much since I left England.  I think it's something to do with the weather that makes people really funny even though they are teaching you great stuff.  The weather must be really bad in Finland.

This way I don't let my 'Engineer me' disturb creative process. He would be worried of hiss and background noise of the talkback microphone and lack of metronome. 'Artist me' is not intersted in recording techniques. He enjoys the music. 

Yes!  I think there's a lot to be said for the left and right sides of our brains interfering with each other whenever one is trying to do something and the other gets in the way -- and the same goes for the artist and engineer within us.

This is the best thread I have ever read on the forum.  Informative, entertaining and {stick adjective in here].  And I like your use of the English language...it increases the meaning of each of those adjectives.

Go make more dolby and write more, please!

Audio Interfaces and  in my system:

RME Fireface 800 (1)
RME Fireface 800 (2)
Apogee AD16 (16 ch A/D)
Apogee DA16 (16 ch D/A)
Presonus Digimax FS (8 channel mic preamp + AD/DA converter)
TC G-Major (connected to IN/OUT of Fireface 1 SP/DIF)
TC M-One  (connected to IN/OUT of Fireface 1 SP/DIF)

Who want's to be slave, who the Master?

Apogee AD16 is Master. Fireface1 takes clock from AD16 via ADAT1 In.
Apogee DA16 is Slave. It gets time from Fireface1's WordClock.
Fireface2 listens ADAT2 input which is connected to the parallel ADAT output of AD16's channels 9-16.  (These inputs are not used otherwise.)
Presonus Digimax is slave of Fireface2. Clock via ADAT.
TC G-Major and TC M-One are in slave mode.

panup,

Have you ever considered using a midi drum controller (i.e., V-Drums from Roland) in tandem with one of the really great sounding drum synths available (Addictive, Superior, or even Sonar's SD) for recording "live" drums?

It would obviously make editing and fixing up your drums tracks much much easier, plus you have the option of later changing the drum samples, etc.

Thanks.

In use triggered samples besides real drums. In metal styles every drum hit must be aggressive. Double pedal kick drum parts should sound steady. That's where triggering helps. I may replace whole kick drum part with a sample loop. In this case drums must be edited tight to the grid.

I have mesh heads, DDrum triggers and Alesis Trigger I/O for acoustic drums alternative.  Addictive Drums are in my collection, too. Triggers can as well be used in ordinary heads. Few drummers want to use mesh heads, majority goes with the real thing.

Sample based cymbals  sound too sterile in my ears, especially hi-hat and ride. Real drummer hits hi-hat every time a bit differently and it creates such tonal variance and groove that just can not be imitated with drum machine. Or it's wrong to say that you couldn't do it but it's faster to record it real.

I may also want to record drums in the same room with rhythm guitar(s) and bass to utilize spill. Sometimes I change my mind during sessions and move guitars to next room if I predict that I need to edit drum tracks.  

Main thing of using acoustic kit is commercial: bands use my facilities because I have room and equipment to record real drums! Acoustic kit is more intersting to listen. Drummer's style can be recognized better of acoustic kit.  Samples sound general and they lack personality. Sampled snare hit is the same snare hit again and again (or one of the few alternative samples) but there are never two exactly same sounding acoustic drum snare hits.

It all depends on the style of the song and people involved.
I must admit that today's machine drums sound incredibly realistic (if you want to). My bandmates can't guess if I have used real or machine drums in my mixes. So all this talk of organic and real is just in my head...

Back In Time

My first audio interface was homemade: output of PC's parallel port connected to eight parallel resistors, values something like 1k, 2k, 4k, 8k, 16k, 32k, 64k and 128kOhm. I gave out 8 bit mono and sound was far more Hi-Fi than output of PC's 1bit internal speaker! DAW program was Future Crew's Scream Tracker.
In 1989 SoundBlaster replaced my parallel port interface. In 1992 came Gravis UltraSound which featured wavetable synthesis. It was a huge step forward – it was able to produce 44.1 kHz sound when max. 19 polyphony or 19.2 kHz with 32 polyphony. I probably thought that nobody will ever need more channels nor higher sample rates because the ultimate maximum of CD quality had finally been reached.
I started to practice guitar seriously because guitarists get more women. I started to compose because compact disks were so expensive – cheaper to make the music myself. I help guitar in my hands 4-8 hours per day roughly the first 10 years. When fingertips were aching too much I made music with PC & 4 track. When head was empty of ideas I read music theory. Life outside music grew dimmer.
Studio time is expensive. It is much cheaper to buy a recorder and a microphone. Guitar pedals do the job as effects. After two weeks I needed few cables, too. Phones needed updating. Oh, and I wanted to have a MIDI keyboard, too. More cassettes. Better 4track machine. Fostex X-28 was replaced by Fostex 280, a super Hi-Fi killing machine. Fostex R-8 was the next.

Now I was heaven. Total eight (8) tracks! No need to ping-pong ever! Let's see the track listing:

1 Drums, bass and guitar
2 Vocal and solo guitar
3 Keyboards
4 free
5 free
6 free
7 free
8 free

So many free tracks!

I needed a new mixer. More microphones. More cables. More space. New table. New chair. New speakers.  New PC - goodbye old slow PC. Please welcome 66 MHz Pentium and several megabytes of RAM! 
Year after year I collected more and more equipment. Finally I realized it would have been cheaper to book a premium studio for a month every year than try to build your own studio. Who would be that dummy not to understand it? And how about those women that guitarists get? Just hype. Urban legend.

I have always been 'do it yourself' guy. Why did I not do like the others: form a band, research five songs, go to studio, get gigs, become famous and enjoy hospitality of southern gig organizers? No, I had to do everything myself: form a band - yes, research songs - yes, many, go to studio - BEEP, get gigs - yes, famous - in my dreams if not even there. Hospitality of organizers? Or was it hostility?  After my first gig I heard them flatter me. 'Panu sings false!'. I thought they ment I had singed in falsetto. I was flattered for years until I learned the difference between these two words.

BEEP. I went to a real studio once. Those days were great time. I was free of all technical worries and I could be a rock star in the studio.

- Guitar amp needs to be louder! Please turn it to 10. More bass to my guitar.
- I need another cabinet. They need to be in stereo.
- Can't you turn my headphones any louder? (no blood coming bleeding yet)
- Save the last solos, I try again.  x 100 :-))
- Good night! I hope you can clean the project and play me the best takes tomorrow.

I enjoyed every moment being on the other side of the glass window. I had the time of my life.

Now it was 1998. I recorded my band's album with my own equipment. Basic track to Fostex R-8, then mixdown to PC as stereo track. Stereo track back to R-8 and I had again 6 more tracks available. Now this was a huge project! During final mixdown I played live some guitar and percussion parts that had no more room left. Would not happen today.

After that I wanted to transfer more tracks at once from tape to PC. I installed another sound card Two sound cards, 4 individual inputs. New problem arose: sound cards were not in exact sync with each other: one's 44.1 kHz was 44099, another s 44101. That's not a problem under ten seconds but in a three and a half minute song the latter half is badly out of sync. Cool Edit helped: it has a feature to match different sound cards' sample rates That's one reason why I chose Cool Edit those days. Additionally, it is still the best audio editor.

Now I was entirely in digital recording. I bought Marian Marc audio interface with 8 analog inputs and outputs, Yamaha SW1000XG and Yamaha DSP Factory. This was the last setup before my first RME Fireface that I acquired in 2004. Shortly after purchasing Fireface I moved to Sonar. The rest is no more history but I must be considered as present. During all those years time always felt as 'present'. Time is weird. Not those gone moments are no more present. They are replaced by a new present. And new. New.

Time traveling is actually easy. Just accelerate yourself near light speed away from Earth, then brake and come back at the same speed. Your trip lasted only hours or a day but in Earth time passed thousands of years. So, technically it is possible to skip Sonar 9 and move on to version 9000 by just making a day trip in space. Meanwhile they have fixed all bugs but notation is still the same. More good news from the future: dropouts are history because average PC is so fast that it can model the whole Universe. In fact, everybody can create their customized Universes with Sonar Universe 8.5.1, the best Universe creator available. New features include free customization of all forces and super cool Universe Compressor/Expander/Gate. Previous Universe Compressor was not transparent at extreme settings as astronomers have observed. Sonar Universe 8.5.1 can stretch the Universe flawlessly.

Sonar 9001 feature requests:

• Support ReWire between different kind of Universes
• Better Auto-Save
• Vintage Universe library that contains all the famous old time Universes
• Dimension handling needs improvements. Now gravity is leaking to time. It's not a showstopper, thought.
• Reverse time does not work in 65536 bit Sonar version. Please correct.
• Linear time line is so old fashioned. Matrix View should still be re-engineered.
• Often size of Exported Universe is larger than temporary storage size of the Universe program is used. Thus exported universes should be sent to new space time directly without use of temporary space time of the code.
• Full compatibility with Pro Audio 9 – Sonar 8.5.1. There are people that have unfinished projects from that era.
  
  Upgrade price for old Sonar 8.5.1 customers: _____ (TBA)

Please refer to the ***Sonar Universe 9000 Master Bug Thread*** for all the latest news in bug fixing and current bugs.

Update: Reverse Time has been fixed for Sonar Universe 9000 65536bit.  The fix will be included in the next update (v9000.1.254).


HTH

Insert: Marker (prompt for name). Maybe one of the greatest inventions after coffee machine.

Have you used F11 in Sonar? It will insert a marker anytime you want. You then can name it later if you wish via the marker window.