Need Advice re: Session Drummer 3 for Prog-Rock

Hello!

I have only two questions...in, like, 47 parts.

They are:

QUESTION 1: Should I be using Session Drummer 3 to do what I'm trying to do, or some other Virtual Instrument; and,

QUESTION 2: If Session Drummer 3 is the way to go, then how can I overcome my current struggles with it to achieve what I'm trying to do?

Obviously, no-one can answer these questions until I say what I'm trying to do! So...

Here is my situation: I'm writing prog-rock tunes of the Yes/Genesis/Rush/Porcupine Tree/Dream Theater/Transatlantic variety. I'm writing them in Sonar X1.

I'm doing audio recording for vocals and guitar and bass parts; all else is played using Virtual Instruments in the DAW, entered using Staff View or Piano Roll View or played on a synth via MIDI.

My workflow is to write rough/representative drum parts, then hire in various drummers to record their own "take" on those parts. These performances will be on a MIDI kit, and that MIDI performance will be captured into Sonar and played through whatever Virtual Instrument will allow me to tweak the drum kit sounds "just so."

So that's the plan. But here's where I run into QUESTION 1:

I have the following drum-related Virtual Instruments:

- NI Kontakt 5

- NI Battery 3

- SI Drum Kit

- Session Drummer 3

...is Session Drummer 3 the way to go for what I want to do? Or Battery? Or something I don't yet have like BFD or Superior Drummer or something I've never heard of? (There are so many names out there I can't even figure out what the direct competition to Session Drummer 3 is.)

Now perhaps you'll come back and tell me that Session Drummer 3 is going to work fine for me. Great; I'd rather not spend more money!

But in that case, perhaps you can tell me how, in Session Drummer 3, I can customize things the way I want to? (This is QUESTION 2.) I can't figure out how to do certain things, which is why I started wondering if Session Drummer 3 was the wrong tool for the job.

Here are some of the things I can't figure out how to do:

1. In Drumkit View, the kit depicted only has 3 toms. I'm trying to make Peart/Portnoy-esque parts. 3 toms ain't gonna cut it. Any way to add pieces to the kit? Or import a picture of a prog-rock kit with lots of pieces, and designate various parts of the kit picture as "hotspots" for triggering those pieces?

2. In Mixer view, there are only 12 channels depicted on the drum mixer for a set. Again, probably not enough for a big Portnoy/Peart-esque prog-metal kit. Any way to add channels?

3. In Mixer view, there are icons at the top of each channel. I can change which samples are loaded for each drum...but if I decide to ditch an auxiliary percussion sound like a conga in favor of adding another tom, I can't change the icon. (It remains a sort of electronic pad icon.) Any way to change the icons to reflect what's really in there?

4. In Mixer view, I can right click on a drum icon and it shows me options; e.g. "Note 45: Lo.Tom, Note 46: LoMdTom" but there isn't any way (so far as I can see) to map those samples to different notes. What if I want the LoMdTom to be triggered by Note 47?

5. In Mixer view, as indicated above, both Lo.Tom and LoMdTom were options within the same channel; they weren't separate. I figured if I liked the sound of the Lo.Tom but not the LoMdTom, I could just select LoMdTom and right click to Load a different instrument. But when I did that...

(a.) ...it never showed me what sample I was changing away from; consequently after I failed to find a sample I liked better, I never could figure out which sample to load to get the original set's tom sound back;

(b.) ...it didn't just change the sound of the LowMdTom; it also changed the sound of the Lo.Tom also. Can't I change just one of the two?

(c.) ...when I was trying to pick a new sample to use on the LoMdTom, I saw a bunch of files with names like "jbsonr_c2_97.flac" ...but there was no easy way to audition these side-by-side while a loop was playing, so I could figure out which I liked best. Is there a way to hear them while picking them, so I don't pick something totally awful and only find out afterward?

(d.) ...the samples I could load looked like they were triggered at different velocities; for example there would be several files with names like "jbsonr_c2_16" and "jbsonr_c2_49" and "jbsonr_c2_86" and "jbsonr_c2_112," with the numbers, I presume, representing velocities. So I *suppose* that when I pick a sample to replace the LoMdTom in a Session Drummer kit, I should load ALL the samples of a particular drum, so that Session Drummer will play the _16 sample when the drum is hit softly, and the _112 sample when it's hit loudly. But I see no way to do that. Is it automatic? If I pick one sample from a group, does it automatically load the whole group and "map" the velocities to the appropriate samples?

---------------

Sorry for the GIGANTIC question. But perhaps I'll get well-informed answers, I hope?

twoifbysea:

Thanks for replying; I appreciate the effort; but...what exactly are you answering "yes" to?

Are you saying "yes" meaning that Session Drummer 3 is adequate for what I need to do and that I don't need something else like Superior Drummer or BFD? Or, "yes" meaning what I have is adequate because I can use "Battery 3" which I already have or Kontakt with Abbey Road Drums or SI-Drum Kit?

Just trying to clearly get what you're saying.

I think our friend there was poking fun.

You may be right about the poking fun; but I opted to take him in earnest because it occurred to me that if he were in earnest, and I replied assuming he was being a wiseacre, it might come across as criticizing someone just for trying to help. Didn't want to appear rude.

Anyhow, I have watched the videos (actually, before posting the original question; YouTube was the first place I went for further information after I found that the SD3 documentation was pretty minimal).

So...still needing more answers, I think.

Any idea about my last few questions re: Session Drummer? Whether loading one velocity sample loads all, or how to change one of the multiple sounds that sit within a particular mixer channel, without changing all of them?

Thanks.

I'm still new to this myself and that question is a little confusion to me but I'll try. I think you are asking whether when you load a kit into SD3 if it will load all of the velocity settings therefore making a velocity sensitive controller such as V-Drums or in my case the Korg padKontrol trigger the various velocity samples depending on how hard you hit. If so, and the VST kit is properly made then I believe the answer is yes. However you can go into the MIDI map of any tracks you have made and adjust the velocity of each hit individual to tweak them just right. I personally plan on creating my drum tracks by setting the padKontrol to "Fixed Velocity" and then editing the strike velocities after the fact as I find the pK a bit unwieldy and unpredictable as far as velocity sensitivity goes and it is distracting. I may have (and probably did) completely misunderstand the question so if I did please excuse me. And again I am completely new to this as well but I figured I'd at least try. Cheers.

@Beepster:

Well, that's ALMOST right.

Actually I assume that if I load a pre-made VST kit, all the velocities are mapped to the right samples, so that if I hit MIDI Note 45, it'll play a Low Tom, but if I hit that MIDI note with velocity 33, it plays the sample "whatever_kit_lo_tom_33.flac" but if I hit it with velocity 112, it plays the sample "whatever_kit_lo_tom_112.flac."

I assume all that for a pre-made kit.

But when I right-click on a drum to CHANGE it, so that the sample being used is no longer the default one for that kit, all it does is give me a list of .flac files to choose from. And I can only pick one (e.g., "bonzo_lo_tom_33.flac") even if, right there in the same folder, there are a bunch of other samples with identical names except that they end in different numbers.

So if I pick that sample, does that mean that now, when I hit MIDI Note 45, it'll always play "bonzo_lo_tom_33.flac" no matter WHAT velocity I use?

Or does it scan the folder contents, see a bunch of files with the same names but different numbers at the end, think to itself, "Aha! Those must be the samples for the other velocities!" ...and load all the appropriate samples automatically, so that it can trigger them for the appropriate velocities?

You can see how this is the kind of thing that isn't in the manual. (Which for SD3 isn't even a real manual anyway; just a .chm "help file" sitting on the disk that I had to search for!)

Sorry... I don't know about that. You should be able to load a whole kit piece somehow into the kit and all the velocity hits will be there. Again that is in at least one of the video tutorials. I know... I've seen it. I just can remember the exact procedure right now. Best of luck.

Really? I've been having a hell of a time getting SD3 to do what I want but found AD easy peasy once I found the "Learn" buttons. The extra EQ/mic options were just a bonus. Might just be how my weirdo brain works though. They have a free demo on their site though so it might be worth checking out anyway. Sadly AD will have to wait a while for me as I need to sink that cash into an i/o. *sigh*

At the risk of sounding like a Fxpansion fanboi (Charlie!) BFD2 is absolutely made for this sort of genre.

You have access to 6 toms, 2 kicks, 2 snares, 6 cymbals and 2 percussion slots in the 18 piece kit. All the hats have about 11 articulations and the level of "tweakability" of each kit piece is immense.

Bristol_Jonesey


At the risk of sounding like a Fxpansion fanboi (Charlie!) BFD2 is absolutely made for this sort of genre.

You have access to 6 toms, 2 kicks, 2 snares, 6 cymbals and 2 percussion slots in the 18 piece kit. All the hats have about 11 articulations and the level of "tweakability" of each kit piece is immense.

its all good bfj,im mean bfd,i mean bj.
 
to be honest,you have alot of good points and bfd is really cool i do admit.
its taking me awhile to learn everything.
maybe i just find session drummer a little easier to understand.

chuckebaby

Bristol_Jonesey


At the risk of sounding like a Fxpansion fanboi (Charlie!) BFD2 is absolutely made for this sort of genre.

You have access to 6 toms, 2 kicks, 2 snares, 6 cymbals and 2 percussion slots in the 18 piece kit. All the hats have about 11 articulations and the level of "tweakability" of each kit piece is immense.

its all good bfj,im mean bfd,i mean bj.
 
to be honest,you have alot of good points and bfd is really cool i do admit.
its taking me awhile to learn everything.
maybe i just find session drummer a little easier to understand.

I think you're right: SD3 IS a lot easier to understand, but I think what you gain in simplicity you lose in flexibility, and it's that flexibility that makes me want to sing its praises.

Each to their own though Charlie, it would be a strange old world if we all did the same thing!

I'm gonna have to see if BFD has a demo. Sounds like it might be a little more suited to my needs than AD. And it seems to have a workable package right out of the box as opposed to messing around with adpacks and the like.

I'm in Canada. Hmm... not sure what the exchange rate is these days but I think that's quite a bit cheaper than I can find. Looks like the full version is selling for $300 USD. How would you describe the base package? Would it cover a broad range of musical styles right out of the box? I'd mostly be doing rock, blues, country, celtic/folk, metal but want to dabble in more experimental stuff too and try my hand at jazz (which I'm sure is very difficult to create appropriate sounding MIDI drum tracks for). Cheers.

Right on. I did take a brief look at Superior Drummer but there was something about it that turned me off. I forget what. I think it was something to do with mixer interface. However IIRC they didn't have an online demo either so I could really poke around with it. Now that I know more though and there no longer an urgency to the purchase I'll reviewing my options again a little more thoroughly and with a fresh perspective. It's hard to really make an informed decision when you have never even worked with virtual drums before.Now that I have the system built and seem to have found solutions to my hardware issues I'll be really giving Session Drummer a work out so I have a much more experienced grasp of what I want and what I don't want. Personally the idea of being able to mess around with mic options and effects within the synth are extremely appealing as well as having a whack of velocity options. Hopefully we haven't jacked this thread too much but OP seems to have disappeared anyway. Thanks guys.

Beepster


I'm gonna have to see if BFD has a demo. Sounds like it might be a little more suited to my needs than AD. And it seems to have a workable package right out of the box as opposed to messing around with adpacks and the like.

Hey Beepster
Yes you can download a BFD2 demo, not sure what kit pieces you get but being only 350MB it won't be many and they will most likely be 16 bit. You will need to create an account which is free and then you can download your demo. I'm downloading it now just so I can have a look.
You should get the full program and hopefully all the included effects too.


Steve