Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence

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SonicExplorer
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/10 04:20:55 (permalink)
Ok, I ripped out all the plugs and still Sonar hangs.  The only thing I have left is ONE DXi wrapped in Directixer (Superior Drummer).  Fails with either Superior 1 or Superior 2 so I don't think the DXi is the issue, unless it is the wrapper (Directixer) that is responsible.  But I have no safe/easy way to eliminate that variable at the moment.
 
I'm going to next try a painful start/stop test sequence but not moving the mouse away from the focus of the area where the transport buttons are and see if that makes a difference.
 
I'm also a bit suspect about MIDIYoke being loaded, even though it's not being used, so to speak.  Not sure if maybe I should risk trying to disable it in the devices view.
 
Yes, I have separate OS and Audio disk, always ran that way before no problem.  But that was on a W2K single-CPU/core system.   
 
I just compared another hang dump and it's darn near identical, whatever is happening is the same thing, at least that much is encouraging - meaning it is indeed ONE CONSISTENT problem.
 
I could re-locate the audio disk drive onto the same Primary IDE Channel as the OS drive as long as it isn't going to confuse Windows and end up muck something up in a domino effect.  IIRC my thinking was to make use of separate IDE Channels to reduce any potential conflicts or the two disks competing for use of the same IDE Channel.  Keep in mind, I'm using SATA drives, however the BIOS is configured to run in IDE legacy mode, on purpose so I don't have to mess around with SATA drivers, slip-stream, etc.  System is blazing fast for my needs so I'm not remotely concerned about hypothetical speed limitations compared to running in true SATA mode.
 
Sonic
#31
Studio-ES
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/10 04:52:06 (permalink)
Windows doesn't handle disk read/writes very well, and the older the system, the worse it gets. The old IDE-based pro-multimedia systems (and servers) usually had a hardware disk controller managing all data io disk read/writes (instead of Windows). I know that having a separate audio disk is a great idea, but on an old system, it needs to be configured perfectly for it to work flawlessly. Ultimately, it's easier to put everything on the same physical disk.

Plus those dump files are 90% useless.  Unless your one of the software vendors with the error code decoders. Or can read raw memory dumps.

If I understand your system correctly, you have 2 separate physical HDDs, both ATA/IDE (PATA not SATA). The 2nd disk, which is your Audio disk, is shared with the CD/DVD drive (PATA)? That's not ideal.

If so, I would test by first saving a small Project (w/ audio files) as a Bundle, then copying that over to the disk where the SONAR Program Files are. Hopefully your SONAR Program Files are on your OS disk, as well as your other soft-synths & FX, etc. that are accessed by SONAR.

There some other conflicts I faintly recall relating to PATA HDD ports. And ISA mice. Try that small test above first before ripping your PC apart.



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#32
Studio-ES
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/10 04:58:26 (permalink)
Okay, I just reread your edited post. You have SATA drives running in IDE legacy mode (set in the BIOS). Make sure your mobo has the right chipset drivers installed.

Clevo 17" | i7-3630QM | 16GB HyperX | 256GB SSD + 1TB HDD | GTX680m SLI | WIN7-64bit | Cakewalk by BandLab 2018.04 | SONAR X1 Studio (Retired) | Project5 | VS-100
#33
SonicExplorer
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/10 05:07:16 (permalink)
Yep, all chipset updated.  Believe me, I knew building a "new" W2K/XP DAW was going to require getting a lot of specifics correct so I spent months on the project.  That's what so frustrating.  My gut still says it could be a service pack issue.  SP2 and SP3 came out AFTER all the software I am using and I'm worried maybe there is a runtime library incompatibility.  The dumps are useful in the sense they show what was being executed (by looking at the stack) and the same sequence is occurring leading up to the hang, stuck on the same event object at the same place in the code.   I'm wondering if I should just bite the bullet and spend weeks rebuilding the system and rolling back to W2K SP4, which I know for a fact works.  I wanted XP because Superior rummer 2 had some fairly important patches that won't work on W2K. But I can live with those bugs over a complete Sonar hang if need be.   The only other thing I'm thinking is maybe I installed something this time around in S5 that I hadn't before, which is possible.  Some synth or something that is mucking things up?   Maybe I should try outright excluding any Sonar synths and VST's, like Groove Player, Perfect Space, etc. and see if they has anything to do with the hang.    
 
Sonic
 
 
#34
SonicExplorer
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/10 10:35:01 (permalink)
Ugh...too early to be sure since more testing is needed tomorrow, but it seems as if there is some dynamic involving Directixer.  I turned on the Fixed Buffer option for Superior Drummer inside Directixer and as of yet haven't been able to get Sonar to hang.  BUT now the machine freaks out when I have other things in the Synth Rack - and sometimes even when I don't.  CPU goes red and massive popping and sometimes screeching.  And can't even get it to stop by disengaging items in the Synth Rack, have to close the whole project. I just can't imagine what is the root cause of all this lunacy.  I still go back to the fact it feels like some kind of quirk related to incompatibility between XP SP3 and the other DAW software because none of this baloney happened on W2K SP4.
 
 
 
#35
sock monkey
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/10 16:10:00 (permalink)
You do have a chioce
Stay were you are stuck in the past with all the issues that we well remember from those days wasting your time trying to make it work properly. 
Or come into the present where we can help you sort things out and start making music. 
This would cost you the price of a computer that has at least W7 and 4 GB of RAM. In my town they sell for $50. As said, the software is now free. 
You are almost all alone in your world of hanging on to the past. 
It's a hobby but most of use over time dole out the money to at least try and keep up with the technology as it upgrades. I tend to stay back a few years my self and my computers are all outdated but they are more than enough for my simple needs. 
I say this in a kind way because I see your posts over and over and my only advice would be to at least think about at least moving out of XP 32 bit. How much time are you willing to waste fighting that outdaated system? That time could be well spent learning the newest software. 
 

Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
Singer Songwriter, Solo Performer, Acoustic Duo and semi pro Sound Monkey.   
  
#36
SonicExplorer
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/11 03:43:00 (permalink)
Red herring, the Fixed Buffer setting in Directixer causes havoc and hangs as well.
 
The hang only occurs after stopping, not when starting, not while playing/recording, not while editing.  What is it about stopping the friggin' transport that is so special it could be the root of all this ?!
 
Anyone ??
 
I may have to buy another disk (was thinking about doing that anyway as a backup) and make an image duplicate so I can try more extreme theories/troubleshooting without risk to the current disk.
 
 
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2018/04/11 04:20:54
#37
tobiaslindahl
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/11 07:21:06 (permalink)
None of my business I guess, but instead of buying another disk why not buy a Win10 computer ? 
I think it will be problematic to get help on systems as old as XP. It is not even a supported ( by Microsoft ) going back 3-4 years.
 
 
#38
SonicExplorer
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/11 11:53:15 (permalink)
Going to a newer OS is not the answer, in 2 or 3 years the same paradigm will just repeat itself and there will be people saying to upgrade again.  There's absolutely nothing conceptually wrong with an W2K/XP box and slew of software designed to run on it. All of which I already know well and own, along with all the compatible hardware and drivers. Which I can keep running and servicing for many, many years to come.   There's just one maddening intermittent quirk hiding someplace in this new DAW that needs to be figured out.

I was pondering testing the Superior 2 Drummer VSTi using the cakewalk VST Adapter in S5 instead of using Directixer......but I'm not sure what will happen.... can VST's that are wrapped by Sonar VST adapter be completely "removed" using the plug-in manager? Or rather once they are scanned & added does Sonar basically have them permanently installed in the OS somehow?  Asked another way, is this something I could test and easily "undo" or would I end up committed somehow with Sonar or the OS and not be able to easily get back to where I started??     Previously this was not a potential solution because the VST adapter had issues with mono tracks, but with Superior 2 Drummer they are all stereo, so if I was able to get around the hang problem that way, it might be a viable workaround to live with.  And if Sonar still hangs then I will have at least eliminated another major possible culprit (Directixer).
 
Sonic
 
#39
tobiaslindahl
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/11 13:07:02 (permalink)
SonicExplorer
Going to a newer OS is not the answer, in 2 or 3 years the same paradigm will just repeat itself and there will be people saying to upgrade again.  There's absolutely nothing conceptually wrong with an W2K/XP box and slew of software designed to run on it. All of which I already know well and own, along with all the compatible hardware and drivers. Which I can keep running and servicing for many, many years to come.   There's just one maddening intermittent quirk hiding someplace in this new DAW that needs to be figured out.

 
I totally understand and respect that attitude. I was thinking more along the lines of being able to get support from here for example, not many peoeple run XP anymore and will not know all that much about it. W2k, hell, not many people are ALIVE that knows about that one! just kidding :)
 
I hope you figure out what the problem is!
#40
bvideo
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/11 20:54:00 (permalink)
Is your CPU multicore? In those days of Sonar, there were not so many DAWs running multiprocessor. There were combinations of Sonar w/ some asio device drivers that that had problems, likely race conditions between threads. These were only resolved in later years.  A way to test for this is to set the CPU affinity for Sonar to just one CPU and see if your hangs go away.

W10 pro, Sonar Platinum, Alesis Multimix 16 FW, MOTU Express 128, Gigabyte Z370 HD3P, i7 8700K, 16 Gigs, ssd + 2 X 2T disks, D50-MEX, JV80, A90EX, M1REX
#41
abacab
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/11 21:59:06 (permalink)
I'm an old timer myself, and I like to keep old systems running as long as possible.  I have built most of my systems for the past 20 years.  But there is a point of diminishing returns, and wasted time and effort at some point.  Not to mention nearly impossible to find spare parts, like good AGP video adapters.
 
So there comes a time when I have to cut loose with the old stuff and move on.  I still have some perfectly good single core Pentium 4 motherboards, CPU's, and RAM that run XP very well, but have outlived their usefulness.
 
The longer you hold back the more you will be all on your own for support as well.  Even guys like me have forgotten much of how to make that old stuff work by now.
 
I installed a Windows XP 32-bit system in a Virtual Machine on my Windows 10 Pro 64-bit box, just so I could open older 32-bit applications that will not install on Windows 10.  I have Sonar 6 and 8.5 working on that.  It's a good way to access legacy files and such, and even open older files to convert them etc. I have over $1000 in software that did not make the trip over to Windows 10.  Sucks, but that is life.
 
Hang in there, and if you eventually decide to catch up, there are folks here willing to help.
 
However, I will say that running a DAW on modern PC hardware is like the best thing ever! 

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#42
SonicExplorer
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/11 23:50:58 (permalink)
Yes I am running a dual core Pentium.  I too suspect there could be a race condition or bad programming, not supporting multi-core correctly.  I did already try turning off the "Use Multi Processor" option inside Sonar (or whatever it is called), no improvement.   But, I also read in the manual that turning that off does not stop multi-processor operations for everything, so even when off it might still be causing the problem, no way to tell for certain.
 
@Abacab, are you saying I could get a Win7 or Win10 box and run a vitalization mode where XP could run and all my software as well?   I considered this initially but somebody told me the chances of an XP DAW setup, and firewire hardware of that era all working within a virtual machine would be very unlikely.  ???
 
One final maneuver I may try is to put Superior 2 Drummer in the Sonar VST Adapter and see if the system still hangs.  i just hope it is fully reversible if the test doesn't work rather than borking up my system permanently further.
 
 
 
 
#43
bvideo
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/12 00:40:44 (permalink)
I tried turning off "Use Multi Processor" when I had multiprocessor issues in 2006 (Sonar 6 and XP). No help. But using Windows (CPU affinity) to set Sonar to have only one CPU did fix those problems.

W10 pro, Sonar Platinum, Alesis Multimix 16 FW, MOTU Express 128, Gigabyte Z370 HD3P, i7 8700K, 16 Gigs, ssd + 2 X 2T disks, D50-MEX, JV80, A90EX, M1REX
#44
SonicExplorer
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/12 09:36:15 (permalink)
THAT MIGHT BE THE SOLUTION, THANKS !!!    I KNEW the hang was possibly multi-core/processor related and managed to narrow things down to a few potential culprits - but after failing to achieve single core mode via the Sonar settings it never occurred to me to set the process affinity to force Sonar into single core mode.  I have been beating on the machine for over an hour and no hang.   I will continue testing tomorrow....
 
If this fixes the issue, how do I manage to make this setting perstst as desired?   I did a quick search and there aren't many solutions.  Apparently there is no way to launch a program with a certain affinity setting/switche?  That is just crazy....  
 
Anyway, if the theory holds, then it also adds credence to my other hypothesis that by using Superior Drummer inside of the VST Adapter rather than Directixer it may fix the issue as well.   The more broad, transparent and portable solution however is to seek out a way to be able to adjust the affinity of the Sonar process so it launches as desired.
 
Sonic
 
 
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2018/04/12 10:29:39
#45
Studio-ES
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/12 10:27:17 (permalink)
You can create a custom shortcut to Sonar.exe in cmd prompt which specifies which CPU it should run on. Google it.
How does Sonar run on 1 CPU? I'm glad you're getting this sorted, thanks to bvideo!

Clevo 17" | i7-3630QM | 16GB HyperX | 256GB SSD + 1TB HDD | GTX680m SLI | WIN7-64bit | Cakewalk by BandLab 2018.04 | SONAR X1 Studio (Retired) | Project5 | VS-100
#46
SonicExplorer
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/12 11:46:39 (permalink)
Studio-ES
You can create a custom shortcut to Sonar.exe in cmd prompt which specifies which CPU it should run on. Google it.
How does Sonar run on 1 CPU? I'm glad you're getting this sorted, thanks to bvideo!



Sonar runs fine on 1 core but obviously I'd like to stay with two.  For example, in a basic rock song at the moment, still missing vocal, is using about 17% with both cores. With one core it uses about 27%.   Almost mix ready, so most plugs are already in place.    I'd probably get near 50% or a little beyond after vocals and mix prep, but that should still be fine.
 
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2018/04/12 12:11:55
#47
bvideo
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/12 14:08:50 (permalink)
One CPU was how I ran until Sonar 7.0.3 and the ASIO drivers for my device were fixed. Tragic.

W10 pro, Sonar Platinum, Alesis Multimix 16 FW, MOTU Express 128, Gigabyte Z370 HD3P, i7 8700K, 16 Gigs, ssd + 2 X 2T disks, D50-MEX, JV80, A90EX, M1REX
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/12 20:45:36 (permalink)
Well, if indeed this theory holds true then issue is caused by one of just of a few suspect components, but I hope it isn't the drivers.  RME drivers have always had a great reputation, would be really disappointing if that's where the problem lie.  But dated 2007, maybe they didn't yet have support.  I rather suspect it is either in the particular VST wrapper I'm using or in the drum synth.  The only other place it could be is within Sonar, and that is highly unlikely since the bakers obviously understood multi-processor software design by the mere nature of having a multiprocessing engine all the way back as far as S4 was it? (Plus I would think a LOT of Sonar users have been screaming for years all the way through S7 had there been some design flaw).  So yeah, the list is very short on the potential culprits....
#49
SonicExplorer
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Re: Need Help, Sonar Locking Up - New Evidence 2018/04/13 13:21:05 (permalink)
Update:  Ok, so RME confirmed there's never been any multicore/multi-cpu issues with their drivers, which is not surprising since  the RME drivers are some of the most solid pieces of software I've encountered.
 
So after a few more hours of stress testing I remain unable to get Sonar to hang with the affinity set to 1 processor/core. Whoohoo!   Interestingly though, if I leave the Multiprocessor option checked inside Sonar I do encounter some occasional weirdness but that's to be expected I would think.  As long as I uncheck that option, which is the logical thing to do with the affinity set to 1 processor, then everything seems to function fine.
 
The next (and probably final) test is to put the Superior Drummer VSTi into the Sonar VST adapter (instead of using Directixer) and see if that works in a multi-processing environment or rather if it too hangs.  Before that I should probably get another disk and make sure i have a working image transferred & functioning in case something goes unexpected during testing.   And in the mean time I also need to figure out ways to make Sonar start up with the custom affinity setting.  There's isn't a tool in XP to do this.  Ugh.  (The "Start" CMD shell tool in XP didn't yet have the /affinity switch in it)
 
So ..... I'll sign off for now until I have further information to share.  But I will update again at some point to make sure this thread eventually has a proper conclusion.
 
Many thanks to the awesome members on the forum who always seem to inevitably find some way to help others solve their problems.
  
Sonic
 
 
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2018/04/13 15:48:07
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