ANOTHER UPDATE

I've stripped out ALL 32-bit plugins from my prior session (the one prior to Jose's test) and went for the "purist" 64-bit approach today. Well, folks, basically, I have good news to report. It worked. Well, mostly.

Kontakt 4 still exhibited a strange mute bug with a certain series of piano patches from the NI Akoustic Piano library. Really weird. It's resolved by replacing certain patches with another piano patch. Have to look into this more, but besides that, it appears to work fine and is stable.

PLAY continued to have occasional, minor strange visual glitches, but this is easily resolved by closing the PLAY plugin window. :) You already know this is not my favorite plugin. A necessary evil, due to the high-quality samples... but it is working well enough to not worry about it for now.

I also managed to CRASH Sonar again, but this time with Dimension Pro. Not sure what happened exactly, but I added an instance of Dimension Pro (the 64-bit DX version) to the already complex project and BOOM! This was quite easily remedied by NOT using Dimension Pro x64 in this session (LOL!), and simply using the 32-bit VST version, which seems to run fine in BitBridge. However, since this was a "purist" 64-bit test, I removed the 32-bit version of Dimension Pro as well. BTW, Jose has reported problems with Rapture too... methinks Rene needs to spend some more time on the x64 versions? From installation to this point, Dimension Pro x64 (and as I understand it, Rapture x64) are not behaving up to the standard of Sonar 8.5 x64.

Besides those issues, the session was completely solid... with tons of CPU headroom, tons of memory left, excellent performance from Sonar... pretty damn impressive. I could keep adding instances for a long time before maxing this thing out.

THE PURIST 64-BIT APPROACH MAY REALLY BE THE BEST BET, FOLKS!

The closer I can get to 100% 64-bit plugin usage, the better Sonar x64 gets. The above issues are annoying or maybe troubling at worst (Dimension Pro x64 not working with this combination of plugins), but otherwise, I think I could work with this daily.

PROBLEM: What do I do with my favorite 32-bit plugins? AHHHRGGG!!!!

Basically, this is what it feels like: Imagine driving down the side of a mountain, on a narrow road cut into the side of the mountain itself. Stay close to the mountain wall, and you'll be safe (most of the time... it's still dangerous up there). Get too close to the outer edge of the narrow road, and you'll fall off a cliff to certain misery and death. :)

Working with pure 64-bit plugins seems to be mostly solid... like hugging the safe side of the road... but the second I add a 32-bit plugin it feels like I get closer to the dangerous edge of the road. Sometimes it works fine, and there's not much to worry about. So using BitBridge and JBridge are "okay" but only to a certain point, when certain plugins or *combinations* of plugins can get dicey, pushing you ever closer to the danger zone. I can only get so close to the edge before things get strange or worse yet, things get dangerous, or even worse yet, I crash down the side of the mountain into the pit of doom.

So.... where do I stand? Right now, I think I have a pretty stable 64-bit DAW if I stick with 64-bit plugins... with the occasional 32-bit plugin when I need it. Maybe. I guess I'm kind of stuck. The good news is that Kontakt 4 and PLAY now seem to play well enough together that I no longer worry about them. That was a big issue.

What about the DAW-farm approach? Still a compelling, ever-more-likely option. Since PLAY and Kontakt are (mostly) behaving now (shouldn't I be celebrating?), I could simply set up a simple secondary 32-bit XP DAW just for my favorite 32-bit plugins that give me grief with BitBridge/JBridge. I just don't have the time or desire to keep on pestering plugin developers and guys like Noel with my 32-bit plugin issues, bless his special Sonar-programming heart. So as plugin developers finally see the light and get 64-bit versions done, I can slowly phase out the secondary DAW. This is looking like the most realistic scenario for me.

Next up is a hardy test of Cubase with the same basic parameters as my last couple of tests. I'm sure you're as delighted as I am. My goal is to finish these tests in the next few days and then make some decisions.

Over and out for now....

LOL! I know you want to upgrade, Jose. I will admit, this i7 is hard to max out, but if anyone can do it, you could. Your orchestral template was an awesome test and once you add in your Choirs I think you'd have to start freezing tracks again... maybe... or just overclock the CPU a bit more. :)

Has there been any indication from Cakewalk that they are working to fix the Dimension Pro/Rapture problems in 64 bit??

I'm glad you're fairly pleased with the 64 bit purist approach so far, but that is some troubling news about the X64 versions of Dimension Pro and Rapture.

Cakewalk will need to reproduce the crash or whatever issue is occuring with those 64 bit versions. I wish you and Hose would report the issues and send Cakewalk the project/s (if possible) in which the issues occur with Dim Pro and Rapure (X64 versions), so they can further investigate.

Thanks for keeping us up to date with your experiences in 64 Bit DAW land.

BTW, on a similar note, I should probably bring up that there are some plugins out there that are SUPPOSED to be 64-bit but DO NOT WORK with Sonar x64 on Win 7 x64. Besides the Dim Pro/Rapture situation that some (most?) people are having, Sylenth1 x64 by LennarDigital also no longer works. I and others have mentioned it to Lennard and supposedly there will be a fix. So the workaround for Sylenth is also to run it in BitBridge as a 32-bit plugin. Not happy about it, but it seems like Cakewalk is not alone. I read reports of another couple of plugins in a similar situation.

I'm sure you and Hose know this, but Cakewalk will need to reproduce the issue. It's not enough to say that a plug in crashes SONAR when it's inserted into a certain project. A formula to reproduce the issue needs to be included in the report. And even though others have supposedly reported problems with Dim Pro, the more problem reports submitted, the better. Because it may be different usages of Dim Pro or different workflow tendencies, or different project characteristics (such as samplerates used), different system configurations, and/or different combinations of the aforementioned that causes Dim Pro to have issues.

This is why I am urging to send them the project (if possible) so they can run it and see what happens when they try to insert Dim Pro into the project.

Here's one Dim Pro issue I'm experiencing with the Ballad Piano patch using 96 KHz/24 Bit depth' I always seem to run into a time when I get a loud static and screeching noise when I play the midi keyboard and use this patch and these settings. I can record a midi track' and I get the same noise eventually when I playback the project. The trouble is I don't know when it's gonna happen. I can't come up with a consistent formula that will reproduce this issue, but at random, sooner or latter, that stinking noise occurs. I have to stop the audio engine to stop it. The work around is to use that patch in a project with a lower sample rate of 48 KHz.

I just upgraded my mobo, memory, and CPU, but I still get that problem. I'm about to submit this to Cakewalk as a Problem Report. After all this time ( more than a year) this issue is not fixed. So, I say the more Dim Pro issues reported,  maybe the higher Dim Pro issues are pushed up on the priority list to be fixed or addressed.  Dim Pro is one of my Go To instruments for basic track instument sounds (especially electric bass guitar), so I can't stress enough how I passionately I want Dim Pro to work with reliable stability.

Anyway, see you all around.

UPDATE - Just picked up another synchrosoft key so I can try out Vienna Ensemble Pro on two computers. Oh, baby, I hope this works. Was thinking about it all night. Pathetic, I know. :) I am a complete music gear geek. What can I say?

Thanks, Jim (noldar12)! Yeah, I've been doing some research, and everything you said lines up with what I've been seeing. Jose turned me on to VE Pro and warned me along the same lines too.

BTW, I love that "(won't) PLAY" line! LOL! You said it, now I'm gonna quote you!

I think I'll leave "won't PLAY" on the main machine since it seems to be getting along with Kontakt 4, at least for now. I'll just run whatever naughty plugins I can over on VE Pro plus some instances of Kontakt, probably... the possibilities seem endless! I'm so excited! I've already downloaded and installed the demo and my first impression was:

HOLY $%!^!!!!!!!

I was quaking in my boots when I fired the demo up for a few seconds and it worked with Sylenth1... I was able to easily play it live, with totally reasonable latency over the network to a slave machine. If VE Pro is compatible with even half of my favorite 32-bit plugins, I'm buying it. :)

brammer, I would LOVE a Cray, don't tempt me!

But seriously, it's not so much an issue of the power of one machine. Yes, the i7 is wonderful, (don't forget affordable), etc... but the problem is stability with certain apps/plugin/driver combinations. What good is all that power if it keeps crashing on you because of some misbehaving driver, or plugin, or app? What good is it if patches don't reload properly or you get weird interface glitches, or worse yet, audio glitches when you have tons of CPU headroom left and there's no reason but some errant 32-bit plugin?

I had seriously hoped this was the year I'd STOP thinking about DAW farms, but unfortunately, it's not. The reason I'm testing Vienna Ensemble Pro is simply because I want to be able to use all my favorite plugins without worrying about the machine going belly up on me.

Also, there's the issue of workflow. For example, with VE Pro, I don't have to unload the samples of a project running on a VE Pro server if I have to load up another project or app on the master computer... in other words, reload times for a huge project can be drastically reduced.

But on the other hand, I do have some pretty big projects, and yes, I like a lot of power at low latencies, so I will try to find some way to make use of the power.... the more, the merrier!

In the words of Anakin Skywalker as a young child,

"It's working! It's woooorrrrrrkkkiinnnngg!!!!!"

Wiz


Freddie has taken possesion of eratu...8)


Wiz

LOL!

I have experienced DAW BLISS this evening, folks!

The Holy Grail has been found. The Eagle has landed. The Jamaican bobsled team has crossed the finish line!

It is here, my fellow DAW users, in the sweet embrace of Vienna Ensemble Pro, that DAW Nirvana can be obtained!*

*Well, at least in my case, or rather, at least for now... and of course pending further testing and only until VE Pro explodes in the middle of a session in front of client. Your mileage may vary. ;)

I don't mind saying I told you so! We are in a new world of DAWdom that none of us could have ever imagined just a few years ago. Its a great time to be here. I know we will see better and greater stuff in the future but for now it is sweet. I know what you are feeling. I have on occasion petted my computer for being so stable and able. I atribute it to good hardware and Vista 64. You sir have taken it to a new level on your own. No one can help but be impressed.

By the way, worst things could happen to you then being a little Freddie like. I really like his enthusiasm. This is what drives this forum. Enthusiasm.

John

We are in a new world of DAWdom that none of us could have ever imagined just a few years ago. Its a great time to be here. I know we will see better and greater stuff in the future but for now it is sweet.

Couldn't be said better than that -- I agree completely! Okay, I'll add a few "verys" -- "Very, very, very sweet." :)

noldar12


OT (sort of)... brammer... the need for that much ram/multiple computers relates directly to seeking to run large orchestral templates - sample libraries such as EWQL or VSL eat ram for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and afternoon snacks.

It is also one reason why eratu can get so excited about VE Pro.  Ve Pro eliminates the need for both midi and audio interfaces on slave computers (major cost savings).  It has its own built in latency compensation as well to keep everything in sync.

The major cost savings can't be emphasized enough. The thing that really strikes me about the cost savings is that not only do we not need to buy fancy interfaces for each machine (well, except for the master DAW), but the slave computers themselves can be cheaper. I don't know about you, but I obsess somewhat over the little details when I build a new DAW, from the motherboard to the firewire card to the power supply to the RAM to graphics card, etc... even the case has to be pretty nice. But with the whole farm idea, we don't have to worry nearly as much. You can get a cheaper -- but adequate -- quad core machine on the low end for $600 now that would be a great, simple little synth/sampler farm slave to hook up to VE Pro, for example. No audio interface, no nice graphics card, no fancy this or that... just a simple computer with a gigabit lan port.

The possibilities are truly endless. With the way that VE Pro works, you can completely control the amount of network bandwidth that is being chewed up, so really, the sky is the limit on the amount of power you can add to your farm -- network bandwidth isn't that big if an issue. Each instance on the slave/server side of VE Pro has its own mixer, so you can theoretically mix dozens of VSTi on the slave and only send back a single stereo pair to the master computer if you want to. You can add/remove buses/channels as needed, using as little or as much network bandwidth as you want.

I'm even toying with installing VE Pro on my laptop for the fun of it to see if I can get a couple of stereo pairs to work wirelessly. :) Think about it. A basic laptop with ONLY SONAR AND VE PRO INSTALLED, tapping into a virtual giant rack of synths hosted on a powerful i7, mixed down to a stereo pair, which is then streamed through wireless networking to your laptop. If you have a template of synths/samplers already loaded up, there would be quite a bit you could accomplish sitting on the couch in your living room. :)

Last night I could barely sleep coming up with ways to apply this to my workflow. Besides the whimsical idea of a wireless laptop situation, I realized there were many realistic ways to take advantage of this "power," not just for huge orchestral templates. Raw, simple, elegant stability comes foremost to my mind... the master computer doesn't need to have very many plugins installed... you could have a stripped down, bare-essentials DAW that is your mixing environment, and host all the VSTi on other computers that stream into your master DAW as individual channels and/or submixes. Talk about stability. Talk about sandboxing. Stop worrying about 64-bit vs 32-bit!

There are limitations, of course... for example, you need a computer monitor connected to the slave(s) in order to see the plugin interfaces and set up the VE Pro slave mixer, etc., but there are many solutions for that. I have a KVM switch connected and the slave(s) are just a click away. I haven't decided how I'm going to handle automation yet on slave plugin parameters, but I'm basically treating them like they are external synth modules so it shouldn't be too big of an issue. Those things are minor when you factor in how much power you get, and the option for the raw simplicity of bygone days when the computer was the sequencer, not the whole studio and synth rack too.

The bottom line is the following analogy: Imagine a giant external rack of your favorite synths and sample playback plugins like Kontakt, all patched beautifully into a powerful mixer with your favorite insert effects at your fingertips, mixed down to a number of buses or with individual outs, all routed through a giant audio and midi interface with as many channels as you need, all perfectly in sync with your master DAW through a single, simple ethernet cable.

And then, imagine that actually working. Today.

That's what VE Pro can give you. It's insane. And again, barring compatibility with some plugins (i.e. PLAY), it actually works.

Now I sound like an advertisement. Better get back to work myself. :)