Drone7 
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 15:41:41
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Beepster
Considering the majority of the promo and tutorial material released is intro'd by electronic type music and the subject material is a gain mostly dancy type stuff I highly doubt they have an aversion to the genre. If anything on this side of the spectrum, as I was still learning, I wondered whether they cared about live musicians like me due to that stuff.
Now that I use it regularly I realize that it is extremely powerful for what I do AND now that I am literally in the process of studying up on all the samplers and synths included in the program that the electronic/sampling possibilities are endless as well.
Seriously I cannot even imagine being stuck trying to create synth/loopbased music in Sonar with all the things included.
Sounds like someone is blaming their "instrument".
What are you on about, man? I don't use loops!! Is EDM "loop-music" in your mind, is it? Geeezz! What a misnomer that is! Get your facts straight before making cheap accusations. Kids use loops, people without programming skills use loops, producers looking to take shortcuts use loops, the wannabies use loops, but me? I MAKE MUSIC, which happens to be in the EDM genre. And while I'm here, there is nothing wrong with audio fidelity and 'quality', you should know that already, unless "lo-fi" is your thing. Quality is self-evident, but only for those who implement it. And when did I mention that I want Sonar to be EDM centric as you suggested? Don't twist my words or misrepresent me man! The loops in the "brainchild" update happen to be based-on R&B if you will read the preamble properly, unless you think a guitar-amp sim and more algos for the REmatrix verb qualify as significant tools for EDM. There's no way this update even remotely resembles anything useful for EDM, which was my point in the OP!
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John
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 15:48:59
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What Drone7 are you looking for in Sonar that would help you do EDM easier?
BTW its not Brainchild but Braintree. Its the name of a town in Mass..
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Anderton
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 15:51:26
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Did you read my post about what's coming up next month and the EDM-oriented processors included with Platinum? I do a lot of EDM, and the results of that will continue to be contributed to future releases.
I would also dispute that loops aren't used by serious musicians...I know some EDM artists who learned instruments so they could make their own loops. One of my most successful loop libraries, "AdrenaLinn Guitars," had loops of the kind of guitar playing I played live with Air Liquide and Rei$$dorf Force. That way when I couldn't make the trans-Atlantic commute for a gig, they could pop my loops into an MPC and have a "virtual Craig" playing guitar.
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Anderton
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 15:52:09
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/03/05 00:17:24
John
What Drone7 are you looking for in Sonar that would help you do EDM easier?
I would vote for more MIDI plug-ins that could massage data in interesting ways...
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mixmkr
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 15:56:24
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massage data... that sounds robotically romantic ;-D
I like it when people post links to their music in their sigs, etc. Gives a little bit more credibility when the bashing starts flying around.
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dubdisciple
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:05:49
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This post illustrates the challenge of being a graet all-around product. The staff view complainers often claim Sonar is too focused on EDM. Every successful creator of just about any genre relies on more than the instant gratification features of any DAW. Sonar is setup well to create EDM. It's not as well suited for certain aspects of EDM production as Ableton and Fl, but it's not like they are giving you a bassoon and a timpani and telling you to construct drum and bass either. EDM, like any genre, still takes work to create something beyond cookie cutter, template based crap. Presets can be useful, but get boring when countless people use the same patch for very similar songs. Cakewalk's synths can be used with any genre (including death metal polka and its lesser known cousin Gangsta Packpack Zydeco) , particularly if the person can go beyond presets. Z3ta has been used on commercial EDM recordings. The guy who makes Syntorial has done tutorials showing how to recreate well known EDM songs using Z3ta.
As for loops, they can be useful, but many serious producers who do use loops often find/create their own from sources that were not necessarily made specifically for EDM. Logic comes with a fantastic set of loops, yet they mostly just sit on the computer at our studio except for just playing around with ideas.
The things that make a great EDM tune are going to have lots of overlap with other genres. It starts with a great performance. Sonar can't do that for you. Next comes a great mix. Sonar can do that for any genre. I can mix any genre with Cakewalk stock plugins. Yes, I use third party too, but more and more of my mix is pure cakewalk. Even when it comes to virtual instruments, Sonar is capable. I was just dinking around making a trap beat in the studio using nothing but cakewalk products and a few samples for things like the commonly used chants (the 'hey' used in songs like Katie Perry's "Dark Horse" for example) and a rapper asked if he could use it. I admit the same thing would have been easier in FL, but there are so many more things I would not use FL for. For me, regardless of genre the bulk of my efforts are going to be in the mix phase so that trumps included synths and loops.
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John
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:06:35
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Anderton
John
What Drone7 are you looking for in Sonar that would help you do EDM easier?
I would vote for more MIDI plug-ins that could massage data in interesting ways...
That sounds like it could be fun. Also one neat thing about using a DAW like Sonar is the notion of just playing around with it in creative ways. I see some of this sort of unspoken usage in some of the postings here. Sonar is so nondestructive it lends itself to experimentation.
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Beepster
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:08:30
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Drone7
What are you on about, man? I don't use loops!! Is EDM "loop-music" in your mind, is it? Geeezz! What a misnomer that is! Get your facts straight before making cheap accusations. Kids use loops, people without programming skills use loops, producers looking to take shortcuts use loops, the wannabies use loops, but me? I MAKE MUSIC, which happens to be part of the EDM genre. And while I'm here, there is nothing wrong with audio fidelity and 'quality' because quality is self-evident, but only for those who implement it. And when did I mention that a want Sonar to be EDM centric as you suggested? Don't twist my words or misrepresent me man! The loops in the "brainchild" update happen to be based-on R&B if you will read the preamble properly, unless you think a guitar-amp sim and more algos for the REmatrix verb qualify as significant tools for EDM LOL. There's no way this update even remotely resembles anything useful for EDM, which was my point in the OP!
I might take this post seriously if the first time I encountered you here on the forum didn't involve you going apedoodles and attacking other forum members about the lack of quality LOOPS included with the program. ...and since you have edited the post I am quoting as I was typing my reply I will leave the rest of my "opinions" about your "opinions" out. If you need "more" out of Sonar then do what the rest of us do to supplement the main program. Buy the tools you need elsewhere and use them within Sonar. Things like Kontakt cost as much as Cakewalk's flagship product for a reason. I will go back to ignoring you now.
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Beepster
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:11:32
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Oh I see... you did include that reply, just on another post. What I am on about is I think you are extraordinarily rude and don't seem to understand what is actually out there in terms of DAW packages. I dare you to find a more thorough and well rounded DAW package as Sonar. It simply will not happen.
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Drone7
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:14:58
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Anderton
Did you read my post about what's coming up next month and the EDM-oriented processors included with Platinum? I do a lot of EDM, and the results of that will continue to be contributed to future releases.
I would also dispute that loops aren't used by serious musicians...I know some EDM artists who learned instruments so they could make their own loops. One of my most successful loop libraries, "AdrenaLinn Guitars," had loops of the kind of guitar playing I played live with Air Liquide and Rei$$dorf Force. That way when I couldn't make the trans-Atlantic commute for a gig, they could pop my loops into an MPC and have a "virtual Craig" playing guitar.
Totally legit in the 'context' you just mentioned, I myself have no qualms with that. But, my own personal methodology is 'handrolled' beats done specifically for each occasion. To elaborate on my earlier criticisms of loops, many idiots have resorted to them and taken advantage of them to compensate for their lack of individual programming skills, and in the process given EDM a cheap aura. Some guys make songs entirely consisting of loops, or that are loop-based, and i'm simply saying you won't hear that in my tracks.
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Drone7
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:22:34
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Beepster
Oh I see... you did include that reply, just on another post. What I am on about is I think you are extraordinarily rude and don't seem to understand what is actually out there in terms of DAW packages. I dare you to find a more thorough and well rounded DAW package as Sonar. It simply will not happen.
Seems you need glasses or a bigger balcony. Cubase has got Sonar by the balls, and Logic Pro X sh_ts all over Sonar as a package, no doubts about it, problem is that purchasing Logic means paying astronomical amounts for Apple hardware, which I'm not willing to do. Apple is one of the most arrogant and evil companies on the face of the planet, apart from outright crime gangs of course.
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dubdisciple
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:24:06
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For the record, I do feel sonar needs a better drum sequencing/sampler solution but since I got Geist it does not bother me as much. I can create using Session Drummer but anything beyond simple house music 4 to the floor type stuff can be a pain. Possible but painful. For genres that regularly require you to stack drums, SD3 is not practical. Any process that may require rapid switching of layers is just a PITA due to needing to edit sfz to do so. If I have to get out notepad to do something as basic as stack three snarex into one pad, I'm not bothering. With that said, I don't see that as Cakewalk neglecting EDM (or any genre that needs such tools) but more as them conceding for now that they are unlikely to create a plugin for such things as good as what many of us already own. Aside from console emulation items, it seems pretty clear to me that any plugin Cakewalk makes is more worth their while to develope if it has potential to be purchased by non-cakewalk users too. Not trying to pessimistic, but a sampler made by cakewalk would have to be revolutionary to make a dent in Kontakt sales.
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mixmkr
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:32:58
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Drone7
But, my own personal methodology is 'handrolled' beats done specifically for each occasion. To elaborate on my earlier criticisms of loops, many idiots have resorted to them and taken advantage of them to compensate for their lack of individual programming skills, and in the process given EDM a cheap aura. Some guys make songs entirely consisting of loops, or that are loop-based, and i'm simply saying you won't hear that in my tracks.
I'm assuming you also built the instruments/and or devices that make up the sound sources for your loops as well. IOW, if you're just using an instrument someone else built, shouldn't they get as much credit for your loops as you might? Now, if you're hollowing out your own logs, cut from trees you planted, grew, and felled yourself.... we're on to something artistic, without argument....of course? I hate it when "idiots" use fabricated *instruments*, made outside of their control. lol! :-D
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Beepster
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:35:50
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Drone7
Cubase has got Sonar by the balls Is that so? Then why was it when I was looking to update my studio rig the Cubase package would have cost me at least three times as much due to all the extra instruments I would have needed to buy to even get CLOSE to waht Sonar was offereing? And that was in X1 days. The new package has WAY more instruments, effects and much higher quality to boot. As far as Logic... yeah, well maybe. I don't know because I'm a PC guy so I've never bothered with it but now you are moaning about price. You gotta pay to play, Droney. That's the point. Sonar gives you a buttload of quality tools that'll get you where you need to go. If that ain't good enough you have to drop some cash on the things that will. As a guitar player I don't expect Cakewalk to buy my guitars, amps, patch cables, strings, picks, etc. I expect them to produce a good platform for me to record into... and they have.
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Anderton
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:38:51
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/03/05 00:20:56
It would be helpful if you would list specific features or additions you'd like to see in SONAR. "Cubase has got Sonar by the balls" is difficult to intrepret as a comment on a feature set. FYI Cubase doesn't have anything like Matrix View.
The only other feature I would like in addition to more MIDI plug-ins is a built-in vocoder and more sidechainable processors for doing cross-synthesis. Other than that I agree with much of the sentiment here - that SONAR is a host program. You can customize it pretty much any way you want with third-party accessories, like VSL if you want to do orchestral scoring to ReWiring Reason or using Geist as a plug-in.
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Beepster
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:42:27
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And the only reason I am able to even be on the current platform is with a little help from my friends which I hope to be able to repay by helping members genuinely seeking help... which BTW I should probably be doing instead of wasting my time on this.
For the record, and I stated this earlier, Cake should totally keep up with the EDM market's needs. Just not at the expense of the rest of us.
Cheers.
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Anderton
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:50:24
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Also an FYI to those who use loops...the Brian Hardgroove loop package also includes samples of individual notes, so you can drop them in easily to customize the loops.
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Anderton
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:51:19
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Beepster
For the record, and I stated this earlier, Cake should totally keep up with the EDM market's needs.
People giving specific suggestions would probably help expedite that process.
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dubdisciple
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:55:58
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/03/04 23:27:52
I know it sounds like a broken record from sharke, mettelus and I but go Geist when it's on sale and you won't look back. Closest thing to an MPC workflow I have found in software but better. Lots of ways to handroll. Once I got the mapping right for my controller it was a breeze to use very much like a hardware device with huge display screen. It samples, resamples, slices (feels like i am pitching Ronco products) creates good submixes, sequences and more. It is easy to stack up to 8 samples on one pad. Even has great live options.
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dubdisciple
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 16:58:37
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Anderton
Also an FYI to those who use loops...the Brian Hardgroove loop package also includes samples of individual notes, so you can drop them in easily to customize the loops.
I noticed that. Saved me the trouble of chopping up loops to get individual notes. Although they are "RnB" these easily translate to other genres.
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John
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 17:00:47
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dubdisciple
I know it sounds like a broken record from sharke, mettelus and I but go Geist when it's on sale and you won't look back. Closest thing to an MPC workflow I have found in software but better. Lots of ways to handroll. Once I got the mapping right for my controller it was a breeze to use very much like a hardware device with huge display screen. It samples, resamples, slices (feels like i am pitching Ronco products) creates good submixes, sequences and more. It is easy to stack up to 8 samples on one pad. Even has great live options.
It maybe a "broken record" but its useful information and in keeping with the spirit of the forum.
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dubdisciple
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 17:05:13
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The more I use it, the more I appreciate the functionality. I just started using the chromatic mode in Geist. For creating 808 sub-kick basslines it rocks.
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Beepster
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 17:05:19
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Anderton
Beepster
For the record, and I stated this earlier, Cake should totally keep up with the EDM market's needs.
People giving specific suggestions would probably help expedite that process.
I'm stating in general for their own bottom line. Might as well scoop up some of the marketshare. I don't really know the SPECIFIC needs of that community ('cause I'm an ole dino, yo) but if a gun were put to my head I'd say take a look at how Reaper deals with click/drag warping (much less complex than Audiosnap) and I'm guessing the Matrix could be made to compete better with Ableton style functionality (and I've seen you mention you do beat matching and warping in Ableton... so, yanno whatever works). To me though I just want things that will make tracking, editing and mixing even more enjoyable/efficient. Over the past few years I'd say those things have improved really well.
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rebel007
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 17:16:10
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☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2015/03/04 17:31:33
I rarely get involved in these threads, I did however want to make the point that, being a musician that rarely strays beyond the bounds of classical and jazz, I probably use less than 5% of what Sonar has to offer.
I get where the OP is coming from, there is little to satisfy their specific need. I would like Cakewalk to concentrate on better, more true to life orchestral sounds, for Dim Pro. Or even another program specifically designed to create these sounds. But I know the others on this forum will tell me to just go buy a program specific for these sounds.
In Sonar's defence, I think that need is specific, and if Sonar were to try and create a program for each and every users specifics, that program would be a month long download and take up all the HDD space available.
I also think a little less of a rant and more of a suggestion for a feature might go towards getting what you want. There is no doubt in my mind that Sonar is one of the best DAW's on the market, and to come to it's home forum with such a degrading post is just going to ruffle the feathers of many musicians that make great music on a program that is not set up for their specific needs.
Home Built Desktop Computer: Intel Core i5 750: 4Mb RAM: NVidia 210 Silent: Windows 10 32bit: Sonar Platinum: Roland OctaCapture Presario CQ41 Laptop: Intel Core i5 760: 4Mb RAM: Windows 10 32bit: Sonar Platinum (Retired) CbB on HP Pavilion Laptop 64bit: GeForce Video Card: Intel 8550: 256GB SSD 1TB Data Drive: Windows10 64bit
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Drone7
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 17:17:50
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Beepster
Is that so? Then why was it when I was looking to update my studio rig the Cubase package would have cost me at least three times as much due to all the extra instruments I would have needed to buy to even get CLOSE to waht Sonar was offereing? And that was in X1 days. The new package has WAY more instruments, effects
That's why I didn't bother with the Cubase platform . IMO Steinberg is taking 'business prerogative' too far, they are overcharging, but Cubase is up there with the best for sure, a very good package all things considered, and the latest genetation of Cubase also has "WAY more instruments and effects", Sonar isn't the only one with more of everything and new tools. We see that Sonar offers good value for money, and that can't be denied, that's not my issue. It has it where it counts, with a nice blend of features. This is all a given. I'm simply talking in terms of current objectives and possible specific tools for EDM.
post edited by Drone7 - 2015/03/04 17:29:11
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declan
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 17:42:59
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Old school here too, but I just don't like the idea that a daw should try to cater anyone's given style/taste.
CW has given me great tools to use over 19 years but, 99% of the "extras" have long gone by the wayside, but in the end I don't want Sonar to be a "band in a box" solution for anyone who's not a complete newb - and even they will eventually find what they need, and things that fit the way they want to work/play.
It's just a great daw with stuff. You like it or don't. Let it be.
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dubdisciple
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 17:47:47
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I think another reason I am fine with Sonars's EDM offerings is that tools tend to evolve into use for a specific genre and not the other way around. Neither the 808 or 303 were designed for the genres they became mainstays of and in some cases (acid) defined. FL was considered a techno tool by much of hiphop communtiy prior to the popularity of southern (and now chicago) style production Tools created for specific genres tend suck or come along with the worst of the worst cliche sounds 5 years past relevancy. I'm more in favor of Cakewalk introducing a solid quality synth than a synth designed specifically with a genre in mind. One of the things massive DAWS have achieved is spoiling us with so much variety and features we expect so much more to be done for us. Some of the best EDM songs ever have been done on simple trackers or old atari computers. If someone cannot crank out a decent EDM song on Sonar (or any other DAW) that includes so many sound sources, the problem is clearly not the DAW. I have to remind myself of that constantly. Honestly, I think those requiring more realistic sounding acoustic sounds have a stronger argument, particularly if one is "handrolling". I know EDM producers of various subgenres, regardless of DAW, that painstakingly lay out all their drum hits in piano roll (including stacked sounds) despite all the features and plugins that make such things easier. They desire the precise control. These same people still do all sample slicing manually. I am somewhat of a hybrid, although I am starting to wean myself off of slicing samples up in soundforge.
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BobF
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 17:47:51
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Anderton
Beepster
For the record, and I stated this earlier, Cake should totally keep up with the EDM market's needs.
People giving specific suggestions would probably help expedite that process.
EDM would be advanced tremendously if all of Cakewalk's product installers prompted for installation locations prior to installation. 
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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Beepster
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 17:58:29
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Drone7
That's why I didn't bother with the Cubase platform . IMO Steinberg is taking 'business prerogative' too far, they are overcharging, but Cubase is up there with the best for sure, a very good package all things considered, and the latest genetation of Cubase also has "WAY more instruments and effects", Sonar isn't the only one with more of everything and new tools.
We see that Sonar offers good value for money, and that can't be denied, that's not my issue. It has it where it counts, with a nice blend of features. This is all a given. I'm simply talking in terms of current objectives and possible specific tools for EDM.
I was using an old version of Nuendo before updating my gear. I know exactly how good Steinberg DAWs are. They are rock solid (for me) and I would have likely gotten Cubase due to those experiences. However the version at that time was extremely stripped down compared to Sonar and I needed the instruments and FX. Money was tight so I took a gamble. It was dicey stability-wise for a while and I was even considering getting the base version of Cubase to do all my tracking and editing in then transfer it over to Sonar for mixing. Then X3 came out and the stability crap went away. Would I like to own Cubase? Sure, why not, but at this point I see no need. I'd rather own and learn Reaper as a second DAW. Cheaper, more stable and portable and by learning it I can get low budget friends up and running so they can record themselves. Sonar is just way better for what I do and really... I did look at the instrument/plugs list of even the top version of Cubase a little over a year ago and it was still seriously lagging behind what Sonar was offering. So now that the stability issues have been hammered out there is no reason other than curiosity that would make me want to use the other stuff. And I keep saying I'm a "dinosaur" but in reality I am extremely adventurous and ambitious with what I want to do musically. That includes electronic elements to orchestral mayhem. I have not seen any indication whatsoever that I will run out of options for anything I could concieve of with the stuff I've gotten with Sonar and the modest set of third party stuff I've snagged to compliment it. Basically I simply do not see what your issue is. Make feature requests. Discuss techniques with the other users. Making demands and insulting people is not going to make things happen. It's just gonna tick people off who would otherwise help you get to where you want to go. Peace.
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Drone7
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Re: New "Brainchild" release
2015/03/04 17:59:37
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Anderton
Other than that I agree with much of the sentiment here - that SONAR is a host program. You can customize it pretty much any way you want with third-party accessories, like VSL if you want to do orchestral scoring to ReWiring Reason or using Geist as a plug-in.
Same goes for Reaper or any other DAW. How does this make Sonar special or give it an advantage when almost every DAW is based on the same basic concept? Are you forgetting that we buy DAWs in view of provided plugins that come with it, or for any plugins that might cater more closely to our specific preference of tools and sounds, and that DAWs are subject to 'value added' perceptions of potential customers. Nonetheless I respect Sonar, and that's the main thing, but please Cakewalk, be more attentive to the EDM crowd please. But in terms of specifics as Craig queried, I would ask for... 1: An update of the Pentagon and PSYN synth-engines with an overhaul of the preset menus. 2: A dedicated drum-machine with unprocessed 'RAW' 24bit drum samples, but with slice/edit features similar to 'Groove Agent 4" in Cubase. 3: Four individual dedicated drum-sound modules each designed specifically for one purpose, in this case one for making Kicks, one for making all manner of phat Claps, one for open hi-hats (ala TR 909 esque) and one for all manner of snares. But these would have to be of the caliber of the ones found in Native Instruments "Maschine" 4: A sound-module/rompler consisting of purely 'hardware synth' samples, and many presets in the form of Synth hooks, synth stabs, hoovers, synth plucks, evolving Trance pads, huge detuned unison leads, and gated pulsating drone [7]s LOL 5: A plugin dedicated to making fill-sweeps and risers. 6: A dedicated ARP on-par with the one in Logic Pro X, 'integrated' into each channel.
post edited by Drone7 - 2015/03/04 18:15:49
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