Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? Now with Session Drummer 2 Issues.

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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/29 11:28:58 (permalink)
planetearth, will do that when I get back from errands.

Kalle, so the enormous delay is probably a sound card issue? It's literally about one second.
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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/29 15:43:52 (permalink)
planetearth, check your PMs.

Also, Kalle, there is a definite repeated delay effect on the Input Echo in addition to the nearly one second lag. That doesn't seem normal for wanting to monitor any live recording.
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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/29 15:57:14 (permalink)
Are we allowed to cuss on here, because "holy ****" would be appropriate right now. I put the Buffer Size all the way to Fast and now everything works, including the drums! It was set to the middle by default. I can't believe that.

I know what buffering is, but what exactly does Buffers in Playback Queue mean? The lower I go, the more distortion.
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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/29 15:58:04 (permalink)
I've already replied, John. Check your e-mail.

The "lag" you're hearing could be from latency. Latency is a big issue with integrated audio. To resolve that, we'd have to check a few other things, but I'll have a better idea of what the problem may be when I get your file.

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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/29 16:01:47 (permalink)
Yep...that was it--latency!

The buffer needs to be adjusted as you add tracks. It's a trade-off between lag and how much the computer can do before you start hearing pops and glitches.

You don't necessarily need it all the way to the left. You can adjust it to where you start to feel or hear the lag...and then drop it back a bit. I don't know which drivers you're using in SONAR for audio (ASIO is preferred), so once you find that info, we can give you a better idea of where to set the buffers.

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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/29 17:18:08 (permalink)
No ASIO. It says MME 32-bit on the audio options window.
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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/29 22:55:49 (permalink)
That's what I suspected. You should try "WDM" drivers if you have them, or get a copy of "ASIO4ALL", available here. This isn't a true ASIO driver, but from what I've seen, it will give you better results than WDM or MME drivers.

The Website has info on how to install it and use it.

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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/30 17:52:15 (permalink)
Thanks for the file, PetSounds01. It plays back just fine on my machine. There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with the data in the PRV or in the Event List, but on occasion, SD2 drops out, and SONAR stops the audio. (This doesn't happen to me on any other file with SD2.)

I'll take a look at this a bit more and let you know if I find anything.

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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/30 17:58:49 (permalink)
So, about ASIO4ALL, would I just download, install, and then switch my option from MME to ASIO in the drop down menu?


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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/30 18:19:30 (permalink)
Yes. ASIO4ALL also includes some instructions in a .PDF file with the download.

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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/30 18:37:42 (permalink)
PetSounds01, you say you have the same problem with this file on your desktop computer, right? What's your sound card on that machine, and which of SONAR's drivers are you using?

When I try to use MME drivers, I don't get any sound at all from SD2. The MIDI file doesn't even trigger the pads in SD2. When I switch back to ASIO, I still get dropouts when playing this file.

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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/30 21:59:47 (permalink)
planetearth, I'll check the sound card next time I fire up the desktop.

ASIO is all installed and seems to work. Sonar recognizes it. I'm getting sound. Something worked!

So, is there a place to download more, preferably free, midi beats that will work with Session Drummer? I was looking around on the Groove Monkey site, but it seems a bit expensive... over $60.00 for punk rock beats.

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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/30 22:16:13 (permalink)
Smart Loops has pretty good prices on them, and they're set up for SD2. (Smart Loops makes the ones that come with SD2.) They usually sell packs of MIDI loops for $19, but if you buy 2 or more, they drop the price to $14 each.

You can do a search for free MIDI beats, but they vary in quality. And if you're trying to stay strictly with Punk styles, you'll have even less of a selection. For example, Twiddly.Bits sells MIDI loops in 13 styles, but Punk isn't one of them.

Many companies offer drum loops, but these are audio files. You can get these for free too, but again, the quality will vary, and you'll be hard-pressed to find Punk loops.

Groove Monkee and Smart Loops also give away sample MIDI loops, so you can see if you like their stuff before buying.



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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/30 22:31:28 (permalink)
So, I noticed when I have Sonar open, using the ASIO, if I try to watch a YouTube vid (I like to look up tutorials) I get no sound. It comes back if I shut down Sonar and restart my browser Firefox.

Thanks for the head's up on the midi beats.
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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/09/30 22:32:28 (permalink)
I should clarify... no sound on the YouTube vids. Sonar sound is fine.
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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/01 00:28:12 (permalink)
In your Audio options, you can have SONAR "Share Drivers with Other Programs".

Again, if your sound card doesn't have native support for ASIO, you're going to have other problems. ASIO4ALL is not the same as ASIO.

If you get a dedicated external sound card that supports ASIO, most of your problems will disappear.

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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/01 08:33:57 (permalink)
On my desktop... it's also MME 32 bit. Realtek HD rear audio output.

I was looking at external sound cards, but not sure what would be good.
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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/01 12:44:10 (permalink)
All right, this is probably a stupid question I'm overlooking (trust me, I'm trying to read and poke around before each question), but how do you add new drum patterns/categories into the Session Drummer 2 insertion drop down? Like where it says Hard Rock, Police Rock, Shuffle, etc. I downloaded the free samples from Groove Monkey and a lot seem quite usable, so I'd like to categorize, and test, them in that way instead of opening the folder every time. For example, I'd like a new category that says Punk and then I would like all the beats under that. I've seen that you can do it with the Hip Hop expansion pack, but I don't know if that is an installation automatic Cakewalk compatibility thing.
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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/01 17:22:40 (permalink)
PetSounds01, you'll want to put your new MIDI files into the same folder that SD2 uses.

Look into your "VSTPlugins" folder for either a "Session Drummer 2" or "Cakewalk Vstplugins/Session Drummer 2" folder. Within one of them you'll see a "Contents/Patterns" folder. That's where the patterns are stored.

Make a "Punk" folder there, put your MIDI files into it, and start SD2. You should see the new folder when you try to open a pattern.

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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/01 17:39:20 (permalink)
By the way...have we resolved any of your other issues?

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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/01 18:54:01 (permalink)
I haven't done any recording yet, but yeah, the sound issues seem to be solved.

However, the folder thing didn't work.

I went to Program Files > Cakewalk > Session Drummer 2 > Contents > Patterns and make a Punk folder, dropped in the samples, but no new option appeared in the Program Browser in Session Drummer. I do notice under the Programs folders, all of the same folders are there, but the are .prog files.
post edited by petsounds01 - 2010/10/01 19:04:49
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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/01 19:07:17 (permalink)
Okay, I thought you were trying to add patterns.

A Program (.prog file) is a group of patterns and a drum kit, generally speaking. Unless you're going to use the same drum kit with all your patterns, you don't really need to create .prog files.

If you are going to use the same kit with many MIDI files, import the MIDI files into the lettered buttons, load a drum kit, and save that as a .prog. That way, when you open that .prog file, your kits and patters will all be there.

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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/02 14:53:44 (permalink)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef2K14Jm_Pg

Two things about this and it might be because it's sonar 6, but...

How do you change tempo while auditioning patterns? I can't quite see what he does and 8.5 LE looks different.

Also, when I right click on, say the cowbell, to change the percussion instrument from ther drop down, I get no sound. only for the cowbell.

Though, I have figured out saving kits/patterns/programs. The Groove Monkey sample pack seems to be more than I ever needed, especially since you can edit the patterns.
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jhughs
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/04 20:51:18 (permalink)
Wow, you're still at it and making progress.  I'm impressed... and kudos to PlanetEarth (good ol' earth).

It looks like, on the video, he has customized his layout a bit, but to change the tempo go up to the tempo box and type in a new tempo.

As for the cowbell, I haven't tried it, but there may not be other choices on that one.  (What? You want "more cowbell"?  Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.)



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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/04 21:56:23 (permalink)
PetSounds01, the only way you can change the tempo if you're using SD2 to audition MIDI files and/or drum kits is to change the tempo in SONAR. It's a bit of a pain, but it's like that with all plug-ins that are set to get the tempo from the host. And keep in mind, some MIDI patterns have the recommended tempo in the name of the pattern. You'll get the best results from the patterns if you play them at the recommended tempo--but feel free to experiment with any tempo you want, of course.

You could probably program something within SONAR to do this based upon a key combination or using ACT--but it might take more time to program it than it's worth, especially if you're only going to use it occasionally.

As far as wanting more cowbell (and who doesn't?!?), the same thing happens to me with certain drum kits; they might just not be mapped correctly in the .SFZ file. Which kit are you using? If I have it, I'll check to see if I can reproduce the problem or change it to something else. Otherwise, you'll have to load a different instrument for the cowbell, and then save it as a different kit.

@ jhughes...thanks for the kudos! I'm glad PetSounds is still at it and hasn't gotten too frustrated yet. It can be a steep learning curve, but I'm glad he's getting some results and hasn't given up and gone over to...a Mac (shudder!).

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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/04 22:02:42 (permalink)
One other suggestion for changing the tempo: If you're going to be doing this relatively often, you could make a tempo map within SONAR and insert SD2 as your VST. When you want to audition kits or patterns, load that SONAR file (you could place a shortcut to it on your desktop, for convenience), and you'll be ready to go with SD2 and different tempos loaded. All you'll need to do is load the MIDI pattern and/or kit.

The tempo map could have markers and tempo changes every 4 bars or so, so you'll know what the tempo is as the song plays. Then, just listen to your pattern play over and over in SD2 while SONAR changes the tempo. It's a bit "kludgy", but it might work if your tempos are all relatively close to each other (and with Punk, I imagine they are). After a few bars, you'll have a pretty good idea of which tempo you want--or at least, you'll be close.

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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/05 10:56:31 (permalink)
The tempo thing is not a big deal, I just noticed in the video he very casually said, "You can change the tempo" and clicked on something. jhughs, maybe he was just typing in a new tempo? Can you just type in a tempo without switching to the tempo view? I love the tempo view, it's very easy to use and understand.

planetearth, I think I'm just using the Hard Rock kit. I can right click and see other percussion instruments listed, but they aren't audible when I try to change them.

Again, thanks to everyone. In a way, I'm glad I was having problems, because it forced me to delve a little deeper into the program. Though, I haven't even started recording yet. I have, however, programmed some songs with SD2 mainly by inserting patterns and doing  a little editing. Though, I always feel like I'm probably doing something the hard way, especially since some parts of editing drums seem very tedious.
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planetearth
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/05 11:55:27 (permalink)
petsounds01
The tempo thing is not a big deal, I just noticed in the video he very casually said, "You can change the tempo" and clicked on something. jhughs, maybe he was just typing in a new tempo? Can you just type in a tempo without switching to the tempo view? I love the tempo view, it's very easy to use and understand.

planetearth, I think I'm just using the Hard Rock kit. I can right click and see other percussion instruments listed, but they aren't audible when I try to change them.

Again, thanks to everyone. In a way, I'm glad I was having problems, because it forced me to delve a little deeper into the program. Though, I haven't even started recording yet. I have, however, programmed some songs with SD2 mainly by inserting patterns and doing  a little editing. Though, I always feel like I'm probably doing something the hard way, especially since some parts of editing drums seem very tedious.
You don't have to switch to "tempo view". If you click on the tempo window in the background, you've basically "switched" to do what you need to do. The problem is, you can't do that easily while SD2 is playing a pattern. Once you type in a new tempo and hit "Enter", SD2 will stop playing, and you'll have to click on the play arrow to restart it at the new tempo. This is because you're changing the focus from SD2 back to SONAR (and, ultimately, back to SD2).

I don't have a "Hard Rock Kit", but I had the same problem with the Tight Kit Dry. I can change the Instrument, but I don't hear anything after that. When I play SD2 with my keyboard controller, I can see the Instrument icon lighting up--but it doesn't play anything. I figured I just had to find the right key on the keyboard...but I couldn't find one that would fire anything but the cowbell. (FWIW, this seems to be an issue in SD3, too.) I don't know if this is because the last two Instruments are labeled "GM" (General MIDI) in the SD2 manual, but that doesn't explain why you can't change them like you can the others.

Just for fun (though not really), I checked the .SFZ file for the cowbell and compared it to the one for the ride cymbals. The .SFZ for the cymbals lists three different keys that will trigger three different sets of .WAV files. The .SFZ for the cowbell lists only one key for one set of samples. If you wanted to edit the .SFZ file (which you can do in Notepad), you could get it to play other Instruments, I guess. I just don't see why this doesn't appear to work correctly within SONAR.

I don't remember if you have a keyboard controller, but if you don't, it's going to get a bit more difficult as you go. Digital Audio Workstations like SONAR (and Cubase and ProTools, etc.) aren't designed to be terribly efficient with only a computer keyboard and mouse. You'll want a real-time way to "play" your virtual instruments, even if it's only on a small, portable keyboard.

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petsounds01
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/05 12:29:22 (permalink)
planetearth, sorry, it probably was the Tight Kit Dry in the Hard Rock program. I'm at work, so I couldn't check.

Yeah, I have a Korg NanoKey MIDI controller. I haven't messed around with it too much in Sonar. I have used it with the Korg M1 Le program it came with and that is fun. However, when I did try to use it with Session Drummer 2, there was a slight lag, but that was before I resolved the sound issues and I haven't tried it since. There was no lag with the M1 Le soft syth when I was running by itself.

So, how would I go about programming a beat using the controller? This version of Sonar doesn't have the step sequencer, so I am not sure if there is a way to record on a loop.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Newbie Question - Best Way to Add Drums to Sonar LE? 2010/10/05 14:31:01 (permalink)
So, how would I go about programming a beat using the controller? This version of Sonar doesn't have the step sequencer, so I am not sure if there is a way to record on a loop

Programming sounds so technical. No programming needed. You quite simply play the beat, kitpiece by kitpiece or maybe two kitpieces at a time (say, kick with index finger, snare with middle finger). For example in segments of four, six or eight bars. Then just copy paste (or groove clip if LE has it) as much as needed. If you want record while looping, then just loop the part you want.
 
Then you can adjust it in the PRV, quantize etc.
post edited by Kalle Rantaaho - 2010/10/05 14:32:17

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