OK folks , What can you do when you can't even trust your own rig ?

Hello ,
I suppose this post has been a long time coming . as a last resort I might as well see if it's pilot error or my rig .
 
a little quick history 
Last year I picked up a brand new  lap top , Win 8 64bit OS ( lower middle of the road spec $500 range )  
Yeah , I know C….be grateful you don't have to go there ever again …but I do  it's the best I can do for now ... 
For a sound card I went with a Focusrite 2i4 since a few folks here recommended it and it fell into a price range I could swing ...
in addition to that I wound up upgrading to X3 pro , then i bought a whole bunch of software and synths from various reputable companies.
I was basically looking to play catch up on things … in addition to that I picked up a lot of the plugs and various things Cakewalk had on sale ..
 
in theory and on paper everything looks good …
I said to myself OK…i have a clean slate here , your pretty much caught up now , lets start peeling away at the leaning curve ...
now , if this was a story in a fairy tale I suppose I would expect a happy ending ….the truth is, this whole experience has been a nightmare for me …
I'm honestly at the point where I want to take this Rig to the range and put a few clips of 45 ACP down range and just be done w this ...
the only reason why I don't do that is I feel it would be a permanent solution to what I hope is only a temporary problem .
It is very possible that this old dog just don't know what he is doing and he might need to learn a few new tricks .
 
before I get into some of the problems I've been having , i need to state my intention and state clearly what I might be able to reasonably expect for posting this thread ….I'm not a troll , I'm certainly not looking to argue of fight w anybody here...
I'm just looking to find answers to a couple of things .
I would like to know if I'm having a typical experience w this type of rig …. am I just doing something wrong , or expecting just too much…out of my rig ….or even myself at this point ..
 
right out of the gate I didn't care for the latency of the 2i4 and in the begining I wasn't aware of the problems I was about to have  since I was more focused on trying to learn my way around SONAR by doing little bite sized tutorials on my own 
once I started swinging into gear . it turns out that I was having problems and I did contact Focusrtie ...
after a long back and forth it was sugested that I use the most recent Beta driver..well  ok ….they told me to do that ..i did that and I'm still not totally loving it ...
using the beta driver in  ASIO the latency is still higher that what I find acceptable or useable 
 
in addition to that I have a couple of questions here for the lap top guys,
is it typical for a usb sound card to stop working all together and require a computer restart once you close the lid on your laptop? 
every time I closed the lid and put my lap top to sleep I would have to restart my computer just to gain access to my 2i4 ...
it would show up as my default audio device in the windows task bar …but the sound was garbled unless I did a restart 
I have also noticed that if the cable from the usb port got moved slightly in a gentle fashion w out any signifacant pressure on the hub the sound card would also require a restart of the computer...
 
Now I'm not sure if this is a sound card issue or if it releated to another all together completely different issue
some of my friendly songs forum members have suggested to me that I should try utilizing and learning the comping feature  ..
 
so what i did was I set up a premixed instrumental track as an experement to blow over using comping ...
I set my guitar track to record in comping mode and after giving it one or two quick multiple shots ….I said hey this is cool
now I set up to do an actual group of takes in one shot …I loop the section I want to comp over and after 5 loops my Audio engine in X3 dies on me and everything stops ….
does anybody here know what the possible cause of that would be ? 
I was running direct ..no plug s on my track …just straight guitar recording in mono …playing over one stereo backing track ...
is 6 gigs of ram just too light ? could it be something else ? my buffers were set to 512 / ASIO.
 
I'm not joking around I really do want your help …
Today I met the straw that has became my last straw ...two things happened , the first thing may be totally a Windows 8 thing….
 
I had a mix that I had done in SONAR 6 that I had put on the laptop to experiment around in X3 and one of my non Cake Audio editing programs ….
normally I do the whole run as administrator for the app and open what I want to work on once the program opens ..
today I saw the rendered mix in the explorer list and decided to double tap the file to open it up ...
the next thing that happened really pissed me off ….
the non Cakewalk application actually pulled me over and decided to do a license and registration check I kid you not ...
the music app told me that my demo had expired and I'm like what ? I shut it down dragged my lap top over to where my modem was , plugged in the cable and restarted the app …this time it asked me if I wanted to register my software on line
….my serial numbers and my registration was there so I hit yes…. what the heck man …this app has been licensed and registered to me for 6 months ….now I'm left asking myself a couple of questions ...
Is this a Windows 8 thing ?
do I have to constantly have to put my machine on the net just to use a software application I bought and payed for ?…..
the last time this machine was on the net was a few months ago , this was the first time I ever tried to open a file from the explorer view w this music app ..very unsettling is an deffintly understatement ...  
 
last but certainly not least ...
I honestly can not trust what I'm hearing with this rig ….at all 
My older SONAR setup / DAW has a M Audio 1010lt card and occasionally I put a Audiophile 192 in there also ...
now granted consumer level cards ? yes , maybe …Yet the fact of the matter is I do trust what I hear ...
I have always been able to guarantee consistant results while using this rig , even if those results sound constantly bad ..they are consistent 
 
I opened up a X3 session today that I spent may hours working on . when I had recorded this session I had plugged in my 2i4 directly into my studio monitors all during my tracking and mixing…now I'm starting to think it is possible that this is where my mistake was …
on my desktop rig I run my sound card outs into a mixer and then I run the mixer to my monitors … in that set up I have my sound card set to 0 db and I do trust my gain staging all across the board ...
when I opened up my X3 mix earlier today I was surprised at how horrible my mix sounded when I ran my Rig into a set of desktop JBLS
my gain staging was all over the map and what I thought was a decent EQ on each track sounded like a$$ …. 
now I'm certainly not blaming anyone or SONAR for this ..the burden of that certainly falls on me ...
 
did I happen to do the wrong thing by not running the 2i4 into the mixer first ? and then adjust my levels from there ...
 
this is pretty much the gist of some of the problems I have been experiencing 
 
I honestly don't feel I can start a project from scratch and expect predictable results …with the lap top rig / 2i4 
what am I doing wrong here folks ? I'm sure some of you guys got the answers 
up until this point I have been starting and doing all musical projects in software and hardware environments that I trust 
this has involved a lot of extra work on my end for the simple reason that I end up up having to import OMF files into X3 or start something in 6 and then open it up in X3 once I'm in the ball park ...
this approach sure seems like a lot of extra work for no reason 
 
anyway thank you for listening and I do hope I can sort this out with your help 
 
Kenny
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

LOL...I don't think anyone would accuse you of being a troll Kenny. 6Gb of ram should be plenty. I have 4 and don't have any issues. I don't know anything about USB sound cards. I run a Delta 1010. As far as latency, have you tried abjusting the latency offset in preferences? I don't care for windows 8 personally. Maybe I'm just resistant to change, but I switched back to 7. I've also not tried using X3 on a laptop, but I have heard that people have had issues with stock 5400rpm hard drives. Admittedly, I can't answer a lot of your questions, but I can say that X3 has been pretty stable for me. I hope you get it sorted out.

Have you checked your dpc latency? Laptops have a lot of power saving features that need to be shut off. Sounds like  among these, your usb ports are suspending/sleeping.

I'm running X3 on a Toshiba laptop, Windows 8, with 16 gigs of RAM, with a ton of plugs and vst instruments. It also has a secondary drive. I have to mention that both drives are 5400s.  When I record and mix everythings in the box. This is my mobile recording rig. When performing live I use an old Focusrite Saffire USB just for outs to the house. Of course, just playing projects I can juice up the buffer pretty high so no problems there. If I am recording live in a group situation, sometimes as many as 24 tracks live at once,( I do quite a bit of gospel choir recording), I use 2 Roland Studio-Capture 1610s synced together for 32 ins and 20 outs. I can usually with smaller projects get around the 128 sample area. The larger projects usually hover around the 256 mark. If I use the Saffire for recording, the buffer usually starts around 128 and gets bumped up to 256.  If it's turning into a sizeable production, 512 is the norm. Needless to say, the Studio-Captures are usually the ticket for recording.
I have an older Asus quad desktop that had been my main workstation for a few years. The desktop has virtually replaced it. I did some of the suggested tweaks for better audio performance in Windows 7 on the Asus. The first day or two the computer acted kind of strange. As if it was getting used to the new setup. After the first day, it was blazing away like a Ferrari! It still is not the computer the Toshiba is but tweaking it DID help. I have seen so many posts that say it's not necessary to tweak a computer anymore after the advent of Windows 7 and 8. I can attest to the fact that, IN MY CASE, it absolutely made a difference.
 Again, I have been very lucky with my computer choices. I have always bought off the shelf computers and cleaned out all the bloatware and such. By the time I got done cleaning and tweaking, I have ended up with some very reliable rigs. It can be done.
Now the troubles I have faced has always been due to a plugin that just is not happy working with X3. I don't use anything with a dongle! I guess I have Big Brother Syndrome. I test all the plugs until I find the culprit. When the plug is found I eliminate it completely. Usually I have something else I can use and if not I will find a newer or better plug, give it a trial run and if all is good I get it.
I feel your pain. I am not here looking down my nose saying you should have bought that 18 core Intel with 5,256 gigs of RAM. When I first started out in computer recording I started with out with a custom built machine that was supposed to be Abbey Road in a box! It was soon replaced by an off the shelf HP full of bloatware and minimum memory. Don't get me wrong!! There a lot of great builders out there and some right here on this forum. Maybe you could try contacting them. Jim Roseberry comes to mind.                                                                              I have recorded on systems that you could launch a rocket to Mars on and I have recorded on rigs that were no better than a word processor. If you spend the time to tweak a little and find and stick with the plugins you know work well for you, you can work comfortably and reliably.
I know this got long winded here but I thought maybe sharing my experiences could help. I wish you luck and I wish I had THE answer for you. Unfortunately, the bottom line is to find out the settings for your rig that run best for you. I can attest to the fact that no two machines run the same. Even if it is the same make and model! 

I think it is generally not recommended to run your audio interfaces through a hub. You may get slightly better results connecting directly. That said, it doesn't seem like this audio interface is the one for you. Do you have access to another one you could borrow to see if you have better luck?

Hi Kenny, I am probably going to give you a half-assed answer here, but there are several posts in this forum about laptops hopefully I can point you to.
 
I have not used Win8, but have seen enough posts that I will skip it as I did with Vista. The biggest issue with a laptop, is that it is "designed" to run off a battery, so often the O/S will determine "what" (not the user) needs to be "idled." X3 is not an issue (and I doubt your 2i4 is either). A few things to look for:
 
1) Always keep the laptop plugged in when using it as a DAW.
2) Change Power Management settings to NEVER idle a hard drive (or hibernate) while plugged in.
3) Disable Wi-Fi when using as a DAW (if feasible).
4) Research "core parking" and make sure that your laptop is not "idling" cores "not in use"... they should always be on. Bob Bone posted a nice post on this (is a registry change), but I cannot readily find it.
5) USB hubs/ports are not allowed to go idle (I also believe Bob posted on this).
 
My "hunch" is that Windows is trying to power manage things (assuming it is on a battery), and unless you change power management settings, I "believe" they are similar for plugged in and unplugged. Any of the above items does not "come back online" instantaneously.... so in a tracking mode it means "doom."
 
I actually fear using a laptop because of these, so cannot point you to direct experience. I apologize that I cannot give you a clear "answer," but hope it can give you some insight. When running as a DAW, any processes not needed should be manually shut down (CTRL-ALT-DEL). The latency monitor suggestion is good for this one.

EDIT: I was typing too slow (as usual, see my nick)
 

kennywtelejazz
Last year I picked up a brand new  lap top , Win 8 64bit OS ( lower middle of the road spec $500 range )  
Yeah , I know C….be grateful you don't have to go there ever again …but I do  it's the best I can do for now ... 

That should be fine till you see your processor consumption is hi (too many synths, effects and so on).

For a sound card I went with a Focusrite 2i4 since a few folks here recommended it and it fell into a price range I could swing ...

This one works with whatever you attached to it, at least from compatibility point of view.
 

using the beta driver in  ASIO the latency is still higher that what I find acceptable or useable 

May be it is better to specify concrete numbers you get, different people have different "acceptance".
 

is it typical for a usb sound card to stop working all together and require a computer restart once you close the lid on your laptop?
...
I have also noticed that if the cable from the usb port got moved slightly in a gentle fashion w out any signifacant pressure on the hub the sound card would also require a restart of the computer...

Already suggested switching off all power saving featured (in BIOS and OS, including dynamic CPU frequency) is very good idea (you can try to switch in back one by one once everything is working fine).
 
Try to avoid USB hub between the interface and the computer. While USB is designed with predictable latency/throughput in mind, real implementations (in comp., in the interface and in the hub) are usually bad.
 
USB devices have longer "route" when your computer comes back after sleep. It is better to stop SONAR and wait a bit till ASIO is also unloaded before pushing the sleep button. In all cases, reconnecting 2i4 should return it to the working state (again, with ASIO unloaded first). Otherwise you can try to play with "USB power during sleep" settings (if your laptop has some).
 

 …I loop the section I want to comp over and after 5 loops my Audio engine in X3 dies on me and everything stops is 6 gigs of ram just too light ? could it be something else ? my buffers were set to 512 / ASIO.

512 is in fact conservative. Even for very bad system. But...
After a while when you do not touch keyboard/mouse, Windows think you are not working. It can start power saving and/or service tasks. It is normally good to switch network during sessions and periodically leave Windows running with network connected. Fighting and killing all background activity is hard.
Also check with "HD Tune" (free version is ok) that your disk has no significant "drops" in performance.
 

normally I do the whole run as administrator for the app and open what I want to work on once the program opens ..
today I saw the rendered mix in the explorer list and decided to double tap the file to open it up ...
the next thing that happened really pissed me off ….

Running with explorer opens SONAR with user privileges. Many plug-ins detect that and ask for registration. Running once under Admin and once under User normally solves that problem (till your system get significant Windows update... like Windows 8.1).

Whoa, Kenny.
 
The work you put into your post is appreciated, but it is a lot to chew on. Might have better luck breaking it down into multiple threads.
 
The USB problem is probably Windows related and is common enough to have prompted the following from Microsoft:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/953367
 
Unacceptable latency with your audio interface is probably not related to the interface per se, almost any reasonable quality USB device can get to something you can live with. I assume you mean that you are unable to set the audio buffer low enough without experiencing dropouts. With an off-the shelf laptop, a DPC latency issue is usually to blame. Most common is to have drivers for the wireless adapter or video display hogging resources. It is usually easy to disable the networking in BIOS, but often not possible to re-set priority on the video.
 
Did I miss the brand and model number of the computer?

Although Cakewalk hates it when I say this, if all else fails, Sonar runs very well under Boot Camp   Cakewalk doesn't support this because they don't have the resources to help people troubleshoot problems with Mac desktops running DAW software but Sonar even works under Parallels.

kennywtelejazz
Yikes , with my current machine only having 2 usb ports , and my only real option is having to use my one and only usb 2 hub to go direct using the 2i4 ….

 
Try the 2i4 with the USB 3 port. It may work, and if it does...it does. If it doesn't, no kittens will have been harmed during the testing process.

Brando
BTW - Kenny - if you haven't yet measured your DPC latency - I recommend Latency Mon for Windows 8 rather than Thesycon's dpc latency checker - 
 
http://www.resplendence.com/download/LatencyMon.exe
 

Hi Brando , OK I'm on my Mac right now and I did download this …later on I will make the time to give this app a shot ..when I do I will report back with the results…thank you 
 

mettelus
Hi Kenny, I am probably going to give you a half-assed answer here, but there are several posts in this forum about laptops hopefully I can point you to.
 
I have not used Win8, but have seen enough posts that I will skip it as I did with Vista. The biggest issue with a laptop, is that it is "designed" to run off a battery, so often the O/S will determine "what" (not the user) needs to be "idled." X3 is not an issue (and I doubt your 2i4 is either). A few things to look for:
 
1) Always keep the laptop plugged in when using it as a DAW.
2) Change Power Management settings to NEVER idle a hard drive (or hibernate) while plugged in.
3) Disable Wi-Fi when using as a DAW (if feasible).
4) Research "core parking" and make sure that your laptop is not "idling" cores "not in use"... they should always be on. Bob Bone posted a nice post on this (is a registry change), but I cannot readily find it.
5) USB hubs/ports are not allowed to go idle (I also believe Bob posted on this).
 
My "hunch" is that Windows is trying to power manage things (assuming it is on a battery), and unless you change power management settings, I "believe" they are similar for plugged in and unplugged. Any of the above items does not "come back online" instantaneously.... so in a tracking mode it means "doom."
 
I actually fear using a laptop because of these, so cannot point you to direct experience. I apologize that I cannot give you a clear "answer," but hope it can give you some insight. When running as a DAW, any processes not needed should be manually shut down (CTRL-ALT-DEL). The latency monitor suggestion is good for this one.

Hello mettelus, 
 
I don't think there is such a thing as a half a$$ed answer , you are trying to help me and I do appreciate it 
I do agree with you that this is not a SONAR / X3  issue …
I have sat down with my lap top right next to my I Mac while I watched Groove 3 videos on line . i was able to follow along while reproducing a great deal of the content of what the video was teaching …the how to's and some of the feature orientated stuff …
my mind seems to have a built in forgetter …like any other complex skill that requires repetition , i was at least able to see that it can be done ….i did get it right once or twice so as long as I keep practicing it …
it can be done consistently at some point in time if I stay with it...
 
I think what I have here is 3 separate problems  ….
 
1) I have a Windows 8 problem 
2) I have a cresting the learning curve of SONAR X 3 problem ...
3) I have hardware , settings and configuration issues that need the kinks worked out ...
 
Windows 8 , Oh boy …well , it wasn't my first choice . the only reason why I have it is because I got a good deal on the lap top and that was the OS it came with ….
 
i think we can pretty much agree that X3 is not the problem . I do suppose that once some of the config issues get solved i might be able to make up for lost time learning to get comfortable using X 3 and eliminate my current level of frustration ...
 
the lap top has never been run w just the battery power as a power option . when I use it it is always plugged in ..
here's my current settings 
 
…………………………………………..on battery……………………Plugged in ……….
dim the display …………………..never…………………………….never ……….
turn off the display……………..never…………………………….never………...
put the computer to sleep…..never……………………………never…………...
 
my wifi is set to airplane mode ….I'm under the impression that means my wifi is turned off …yes ? no ?
 
under windows default sounds I have no sounds 
 
not sure how to check my hard drive settings  if they are idling or not ..
also need to look up the core idling …...that is what i have so far 
 
other than that this computer has a thing called ASUS instant on thing , supposedly it conserves battery power and gives a fast boot time …could this be part of the problem ? 
 
thanks 
 
Kenny

There is this thread in the Hardware forum
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Need-help-again-interface-issue-m3081757.aspx
 
I would get the word from Focusrite support about the USB 3.0 ports. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere not to use them with Scarletts,  but it doesn't make sense to me as the 2i4 is buss powered and USB 3.0 is a more powerful output for this reason. 
 
I hate to say it but I have read a lot of threads with people having these issues with the 2i2 and 2i4. I think buss power is a bad idea. It's one reason I went with the 6i6 as it uses a wall wart. 
 
And defiantly check that laptop out with a DPCLAT utility... that is #1 with laptops. Some laptops are just plain un usable because of the bios settings you can't even change. 

hockeyjx
This may help a little:  http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/pc-optimization-guide-for-windows-8/
 
I am in IT and dislike Win8. Most businesses will not upgrade because of the lost productivity learning Win8 causes. My Dell business rep has sold a whopping 3 laptops with Win8 since it's introduction.
 

 The best way to optimize W8 is uninstall, install W7.   If I switch to W8, I'd have to replace a lot of legacy gear.

Scarlett's are not great RTL performers. They run around 20- 50 ms at a safe setting. 
But this is no big deal unless you toggle the Input echo on an audio track. Just don't. 
You won't experience any latency issues otherwise. Timing is rock solid on mine. 
And of course MIDI latency will happen if you have certain effects turned on. 

Kewl.
 
Bob Bone