OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory

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robert_e_bone
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/20 20:04:23 (permalink)
Way back in 1980, I was experimenting with mathematical expression of musical tones as frequencies of light - just on paper, but pretty fun while massively stoned.  :)
 
I did go on to become a programmer and musician, and stoner - go figure.
 
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Guitarpima
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/20 20:20:20 (permalink)
I can't read that page Noel. It's only comes in the make my eyes hurt version.

Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy.
 
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sharke
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/20 22:30:11 (permalink)
Years ago I took an old book home from the library called "Basic harmony & basic harmonical mode of thinking" by a German jazz guitarist called Werner Pohlert. I really wish I'd spent more time with it because in it he presents a very unique but simple and enlightening way of thinking about any chord progressions and soloing over any changes. Every chord change was some kind of cycle of fifths to this guy, and he explained why with these cool little hand drawn graphs and diagrams. He also outlined how you can solo over any chord progression, no matter how freaky, with pentatonic scales without having to learn very much at all. It was one of those beautiful labor of love kind of books and I know it sounds awful but I wish I'd kept it as "lost" and paid the library for it. I've never seen it in stores since. 

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#33
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/20 22:52:46 (permalink)
Noel - if you leave out the condition of not having two semi-tones next to each other, you get the Melakarta Ragas....so, 72.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 07:28:26 (permalink)
You get into dangerous territory if you leave that constraint out - I left that study for another lifetime :)
 
Robert, not sure if you meant not being able to read that literally. Its just a simple PDF file on google drive so not sure why you cant see it. It opened fine on 3 different computers here.

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#35
robert_e_bone
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 08:06:58 (permalink)
I learned from Gary Burton, echoed by Allan Holdsworth, of thinking of it in terms of intervals, not only for the notes for a given scale, but also in terms of transitional movement from one scale or chord to another, making use of common points when possible.
 
Allan Holdsworth also seems to approach soloing as really just examples of finding melodic lines as subsets of the chords, tempered by the sonic coloration of both the chord and other aspects of the given moment.
 
Gary Burton also expressed those tendencies, with his preference to play melodic, but wide-interval solo notes when soloing.
 
Both players frequently use diminished chord arpeggios to move between chords, to add some ethereal quality to the melodic lines they create.
 
There is also the effects of rhythmic 'pronunciation' - cadence, where variations of sub-divided groups of notes are interspersed in the melodic line, to add emotion, and to create and release tension.
 
There is a beautiful melodic line that has lots of diminished arpeggios moving through chord progressions, in a song by Bill Bruford called Sample and Hold.  Here is a link to a live version:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXgHPk8j0iQ
 
There is a drum into maybe 19-15 seconds, it's also a live version, but you can clearly hear the different chord forms of the melody lines moving through the diminished chords on the ascension.
 
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Grem
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 10:35:32 (permalink)
Thanks for that Bob. Been a long time since I heard some Bruford.

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Guitarpima
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 12:07:51 (permalink)
I saw the page. It's just white. I see that there is fonts and everything but I can't look at white screens anymore. I haven't bought Finale since 2011 because of it. It's painful, for my eyes, to look at white screens. That's why I complain about the lack of color customization in the X series of Sonar.

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Guitarpima
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 12:16:17 (permalink)
I found out how to save it as a PDF. Now I can see it.

Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy.
 
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sharke
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 14:51:34 (permalink)
Guitarpima, have you tried installing Flux on your computer? It warms the colors so they aren't so white/blue. In normal usage it warms and dims colors after sundown, but I'm sure you can set it up to tone them down all day. Don't know what I'd do without Flux, bright white screens at night were playing havoc with my sleep.

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Guitarpima
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 15:01:46 (permalink)
I use a high contrast, white on black, theme. I'm done with staring at a light. I'll never understand why people continue to do that. My monitor does have that ability as I've noticed the brightness changes. It has several presets as well. I use a dimmer preset for the internet and if I watch movies, either online or DVD, I use a brighter. I'll check out flux though.

Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy.
 
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robert_e_bone
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 18:06:15 (permalink)
Grem
Thanks for that Bob. Been a long time since I heard some Bruford.

Grems - I worked up that version of Sample and Hold a year or two back, but cannot find local musicians to play that kind of stuff out.  It is quite frustrating.  I'd like to play out Karn Evil Nine as well - all three impressions - I am like a surfer in the middle of the musical Sahara.
 
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mettelus
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 21:54:56 (permalink)
I cannot help but comment this - I am glad this thread gave folks the opportunity to "geek out" (gave me a bigger chuckle when Chic's "Le Freak (Freak Out)" popped into my head).
 
@Noel - Thank you for the file. A question came to mind for me in that the constraint of "cannot have 2 or more consecutive semi-tones" alone adds serious constraints to a "permutation;" so much so that I would have simply attacked it with a piano keyboard at first. The wording of the question did not make sense till I saw the pdf, and I was curious if that approach was ever considered? Ironically I am often intrigued by the interactions between pure mathematicians (theory) and engineers (application); I guess this is why I chose physics as my undergrad.

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mettelus
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 21:55:13 (permalink)
*dupe*

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Paul P
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 22:21:29 (permalink)
sharke
Years ago I took an old book home from the library called "Basic harmony & basic harmonical mode of thinking" by a German jazz guitarist called Werner Pohlert.





Abebooks has a used copy for 47$US...
 
 

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Guitarpima
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 22:24:34 (permalink)
Probably not a hard one. How many fully diminished, diminished chord with a diminished 7th, chords are there?

Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy.
 
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sharke
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 22:26:53 (permalink)
Paul P
sharke
Years ago I took an old book home from the library called "Basic harmony & basic harmonical mode of thinking" by a German jazz guitarist called Werner Pohlert.





Abebooks has a used copy for 47$US...
 
 




Wow that's not a bad deal at all...

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 22:51:48 (permalink)
mettelus
A question came to mind for me in that the constraint of "cannot have 2 or more consecutive semi-tones" alone adds serious constraints to a "permutation;" so much so that I would have simply attacked it with a piano keyboard at first. 

 
Unless you have a highly organized way of doing it most musicians would not arrive at the answer that easily. The 7 tone scale problem is the easiest. Try doing it with hexatonics or pentatonics where the number of choices is huge :) 
Also the constraint is not arbitrary. Building harmony from scales that have consecutive half steps is problematic so they are relatively less frequently used.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2014/07/21 22:58:07

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Grem
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/21 23:24:02 (permalink)
robert_e_bone

Grems - I worked up that version of Sample and Hold a year or two back, but cannot find local musicians to play that kind of stuff out.  It is quite frustrating.  I'd like to play out Karn Evil Nine as well - all three impressions - I am like a surfer in the middle of the musical Sahara.
 
Bob Bone
 



I must have listen to his stuff for a couple of hours today. A lot of the second version of Earthworks. Sounded great.
 
Keep looking. Somebody will pop up!!

Grem

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#49
robert_e_bone
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/22 06:11:36 (permalink)
Thanks - got to talk on the phone with Mr Bruford once, way back in the early 90's. and saw Earthworks live once.  (seen him play with Yes and UK as well).
 
Sorry for interrupting the thread - the diminished arpeggio discussion led me to a Bruford fan, and I got all happy and had to post.  :)
 
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dubdisciple
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/23 18:04:47 (permalink)
I'm already behind on this course. I may just peak in  get fully immersed next time it is offered
#51
robert_e_bone
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/23 18:26:08 (permalink)
I have taken Coursera courses in the past - including one from Gary Burton (world-class vibes/marimba player).  They are FABULOUS.
 
I completely appreciate that these course sites are out there, and encourage folks to look for something they might enjoy learning about - you can't beat free, BUT you do need to put in some time and effort into the courses, or you will quickly get behind.
 
Bob Bone
 

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#52
DRanck
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/23 19:14:08 (permalink)
This is a really fun thread! I love how a discussion of music theory degrades, er rather mutates into a discussion about programming!  
 
dubdisciple - Great lyrics but they are the old rendition. The new version was recorded up one semi-tone - in C#! 
 
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"Write in C."

Write in C, Write in C,
Write in C, oh, Write in C.
BASIC's dead and buried,
Write in C.
...

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#53
mettelus
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/23 20:11:18 (permalink)
dubdisciple
I'm already behind on this course. I may just peak in  get fully immersed next time it is offered


Hey Dub, this class is actually structured very oddly... it has no assignments, only quizzes and a final exam... and all things are due on the same date - August 24th!! Someone familiar with the staff already could come in late and finish it pretty easily.
 
Caveat to this - each week has about 30 minutes of pre-done videos, but they are adding additional ones for further explanation based on the forums. I also made a suggestion to shift interval explanation into week 1 and explicitly tell students that quizzes are not "due" on a given week, since the following weeks clarify information (although they did drop a couple pieces of info in Week 2 and said "this will be explained further in Week 4"). Based on this syllabus being in its infancy, waiting may make for a better structured course.
 
My concern with this course from an instructional standpoint if for the true novices in the class... some have no musical background at all, so the "brief mentions" of significant topics have been why I have been posting in the forums there. Week 1 trundled many novices since they present the stave (symmetrical) yet never correlate that to the chromatic scale (asymmetrical), then quizzed students on the stave and where the m2's are (yikes!!). The comedy is in these MOOC's, folks in the forums will contradict before expounding info... if you want a chuckle, read my "The black keys matter!" in there.

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mettelus
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/29 04:10:58 (permalink)
I may have to take my last comment back... this course is trundling people left, right, and sideways now. So much material is being introduced at a superficial level without adequate explanation, but then tested in detail. It is definitely worth downloading the videos/notes from; but based on level of knowledge going in, it can be significantly difficult (this is not a beginner course by any means IMO).

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stevethompson
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/29 11:36:05 (permalink)
robert_e_bone
Noel, if I can answer either of those 2 questions, could I win as a prize either: A Sonar coffee mug, or the ability to use an 1/8th note as the meter base in Step Sequencer?
 
I would put in the time and effort to figure those out, if I could win one of the above prizes.  :)
(and I am sorry if this opens a can of worms)
 
Bob Bone


 
Wait - there's a Sonar coffee mug ???? I missed that....

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#56
Kroneborge
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/07/29 20:10:43 (permalink)
Maybe I will try it then AFTER I brush up on my basics.


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mettelus
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/08/13 10:21:39 (permalink)
Hmmm, I am not sure whether to be discouraged or angry about this class now. The upside is that this is the first run, and the instructors are taking a very active role in it (and responding to criticisms, which are many).
 
The downside is that a lot of content is done in a very cursory fashion, and then quizzes go "two steps beyond" the material presented. Not really an issue, as they are untimed and open book.
 
Then comes the final... this is actually the reason I signed up for this course!! It is harmonic analysis of a piece of Mozart's work (and rather lengthy). Unfortunately... the lectures never covered a methodology of doing such analysis, and an "example" of what is expected was never provided. Luckily, the final is not even needed for the "certificate" most seem to focus on, but I am sort of depressed that the part I wanted to learn/master was never covered!
 
In coming runs of this course, it should improve... but (ironically) what I wanted to learn is actually in this link I found searching for "how to do" the final (and voice leading was not included in the class!).
 
Anyway... FYI for those that were following this thread... I may post one more when the fallout from this final has concluded. 5 PhD's in music, and their ability to "communicate" practical examples is limited (yikes, but common).

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robert_e_bone
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/08/13 10:44:34 (permalink)
I have taken a few courses through Coursera, and the quality of the course varies among the courses.
 
There was a pretty good Jazz improvisation class taught by none other than the legendary Gary Burton, which I thought was pretty good.
 
Another one on mixing was OK, but pretty basic.
 
Still - free is a good thing, and I think they will learn to make things better, since the point is to attract paying students to the various colleges.
 
Bob Bone

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CoteRotie
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory 2014/08/20 11:27:14 (permalink)
sharke
Years ago I took an old book home from the library called "Basic harmony & basic harmonical mode of thinking" by a German jazz guitarist called Werner Pohlert. I really wish I'd spent more time with it because in it he presents a very unique but simple and enlightening way of thinking about any chord progressions and soloing over any changes.

 
I have a copy of this book-  I was originally put off by the egregiously bad English translation from the German, but I'm going to have another look through it now.  Thanks for reminding me about it!
 
John
 

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