mettelus
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OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
I signed up for this a couple months ago and it just came online this week. I "believe" this is the first run of this course, but already in week 1 they touched upon modes, which I did not see in a previous course. This course is offered by Coursera.org and can be found here if anyone is interested.
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dubdisciple
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/18 22:30:07
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Thanks. I could use a brush up course
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robert_e_bone
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 08:39:16
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I remember learning about the 'Circle of Fifths', but it was centered around the different alcohols that went into a Long Island Iced Tea.
It was much later that I got the 'corrected' information on that from theory classes as a local college and private lessons.
Who knew? :)
Thanks for the tip - I LOVE the Coursera offerings - there are a bunch of other free classes at a whole bunch of other online universities and such.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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emwhy
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 09:21:19
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My theory on theory if you'll excuse the play on words is that it is important to have a background, but take care to not let the rules restrain your creativity. Some of the best, most daring music has been done by people who ignore the hardcore rules especially of classical theory. Robert Fripp of King Crimson fame said once you learn it, unlearn it to be creative.
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mettelus
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 11:50:50
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This class caught me off guard in that I did a quick pass on the forums before starting and there were several threads about people dropping the class (never seen this before). When I reviewed the videos it starts incredibly basic then takes off like a rocket and only briefly touches on how to get from here to there. Intervals got glossed over and suddenly chords got thrown out by name. I can see where novices would hit a brick walk with this course.... But this is the only course I have seen where the instructors are reading the forums (they actually added another video to week one because of comments about modes).
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azslow3
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 12:12:03
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When I have understood I completely forgot what I have learned in the (music) school looong time ago, I took old college grade russian books "Elementary theory of music" (1963) and "Garmony" (1965). Getting throw ~600 pages in total was not easy, and you can imagine which kind of music is in examples, but what was covered was covered slowly and complete. I guess something like that exists in english as well.
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Guitarpima
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 12:27:58
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I have to laugh every time I hear music theory called, "rules". They are not rules at all. It is only a way of understanding what the music is doing. There are no rules.
As far as modes go. I think music educators make this more complicated than it should be. Yes, all modes are a series of half and whole steps but so is anything else. It's good to think that way but they should present this first:
cdefgabc Ionian
defgabcd dorian
efgabcde phrygian
fgabcdef lydian
gabcdefg mixolydian
abcdefga aeolian
bcdefgab lochrian (my personal favorite)
Every music educator should use that first. Everyone understands major and minor but for some reason, they just don't get modes. That was my experience, anyway, when I was in college.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 14:30:41
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The way modes are taught in most theory books is by rote which is silly. Modes are a simple mathematical concept that apply to any series of intervals and yet they are normally only referenced with respect to a few scales. They are best learned as interval series but most people don't teach them that way. When I was initially studying music the lack of information in this area frustrated me, so when I started programming in the 80's, I wrote some code using simple cyclic permutation math, to iteratively generate all possibilities of scales and modes in 12 tone music - 7, 8 tone scales, pentatonics and hexatonics... The code was written in COBOL btw, and it ran overnight to compute that stuff on a Z80 microprocessor and print out pages of scales! That was my first music software project :) The stuff I learned from that exercise changed the way I thought about scales forever. Pop trivia questions - I'll be impressed if anyone knows answer to these :) - How many possibilities of 7 tone scales exist in 12 tone music. - How many possibilities of pentatonic scales exist in 12 tone music. Exclude modes, transpositions of the scales, and scales that have 2 or more consecutive semitones.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2014/07/19 17:53:01
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robert_e_bone
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 15:47:44
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Noel, if I can answer either of those 2 questions, could I win as a prize either: A Sonar coffee mug, or the ability to use an 1/8th note as the meter base in Step Sequencer?
I would put in the time and effort to figure those out, if I could win one of the above prizes. :)
(and I am sorry if this opens a can of worms)
Bob Bone
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robert_e_bone
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 15:48:58
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Oh - I also just saw a nice comment about music theory from Allan Holdsworth: "Music theory is just observation turned into rules".
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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azslow3
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 16:22:44
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I am not sure I am right, but from pure mathematical point of view: Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Pop trivia questions - I'll be impressed if anyone knows answer to these :)
- How many possibilities of 7 tone scales exist in 12 tone music. (exclude modes)
792... 
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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Katnip
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 16:44:04
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robert_e_bone
I remember learning about the 'Circle of Fifths', but it was centered around the different alcohols that went into a Long Island Iced Tea.
It was much later that I got the 'corrected' information on that from theory classes as a local college and private lessons.
Who knew? :)
Thanks for the tip - I LOVE the Coursera offerings - there are a bunch of other free classes at a whole bunch of other online universities and such.
Bob Bone
Is an augmented fifth the same as a fermented fifth? I think I need to brush up on my alcohol theory.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 17:51:06
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azslow3
I am not sure I am right, but from pure mathematical point of view:
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Pop trivia questions - I'll be impressed if anyone knows answer to these :)
- How many possibilities of 7 tone scales exist in 12 tone music. (exclude modes)
792...
I probably should have been more clear but exclude modes, transpositions of the scales, and scales that have 2 or more consecutive semitones in the result. The latter yields scales that are less harmonically "useful".i.e C maj and D dorian, C# maj should be treated as the same basic scale. There is a bit more to it than just permutations :)
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Grem
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 17:54:25
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
There is a bit more to it than just permutations :)
So I'm going to take that as a big no!!😃😃😃
Grem
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Guitarpima
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 18:21:53
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It could only be 1. All major or minor scales has 2 consecutive semitones. The only one that has not consecutive semitones is the whole tone scale.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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bayoubill
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/19 18:29:11
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I had my time studying theory in college. I have to say I liked it much better than algebra  After my 5 years at it the way I understand music theory is that music composed before now and the practices they used to make compositions are guidelines set forth for me (you) to use for direction and example (what they did) Music theory comes after the music is written. Theory helped me understand instead of using 135 for a triad and chord scale use 127 then build from there kind of things. It's one of those things you gotta have, like practicing to get chops. It's the end result that makes it worth the time!
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azslow3
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 06:55:19
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I probably should have been more clear but exclude modes, transpositions of the scales, and scales that have 2 or more consecutive semitones in the result. The latter yields scales that are less harmonically "useful".
i.e C maj and D dorian, C# maj should be treated as the same basic scale. There is a bit more to it than just permutations :)
Then the answer is : 6 And 4 from them have one and half tone interval (you have not mentioned that is not allowed). Still calculated with pure combinatorial approach...
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 07:53:14
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Exactly correct! 4 of them have minor third intervals in them. Color me impressed :)
I'd be interested to see how you calculated the answer. Did your method also allow you to list the scale contents or just compute the final count of scales? Two of the scales in this list are not traditionally known.
PS: Your ACT controller looks interesting. Did you use the new control surface SDK's that we posted recently to help build it?
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azslow3
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 08:52:57
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Exactly correct! 4 of them have minor third intervals in them. Color me impressed :)
I'd be interested to see how you calculated the answer. Did your method also allow you to list the scale contents or just compute the final count of scales? Two of the scales in this list are not traditionally known.
The same way as you originally, small C program. I have realized that analytical approach can take more brain activity and I need the program to check results in any case. It was not working the whole night so, my laptop is faster then Z80. In former time I could white it directly in codes, but with age I prefer to use C (or assembly for system toys  ) To be fair, I must say I could not foreseen the existence of scales with minor third till I saw them printed. PS: Your ACT controller looks interesting. Did you use the new control surface SDK's that we posted recently to help build it? I use IDL only (manually converted to C). My whole code is in C (not C++), compiled with cross GCC under Linux. I have not used new COM interfaces yet. I have tried "StepSize", but it is not really working as I expected. Sorry for off topic, but since your are "here"... There are several threads about PC in Mackie plug-in. I do not have such device, but I am just wonder why it is not "work arounded" in plug-in till API is fixed in SONAR? May be it is already done on github, I have not checked, but in case it is not I can write the approach I have used.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 09:05:58
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Indeed, doing it analytically demystifies it. It was a revelation to me when I first did this. Minor thirds are common. The harmonic minor and harmonic major both have this intervals. Regarding the surface stuff, you did it the hard way :) Its much easier to start with the C++ ACT control surface and work from there for most people, I would think... Regarding Mackie, not sure which issue you are referring to, but the surface is not act aware. So it would need to be modified to handle that. Feel free to try adding support to the surface on github. You can refer to the VS700 or one of the other surfaces to see how its done there. azslow3
The same way as you originally, small C program. I have realized that analytical approach can take more brain activity and I need the program to check results in any case. It was not working the whole night so, my laptop is faster then Z80. In former time I could white it directly in codes, but with age I prefer to use C (or assembly for system toys )
To be fair, I must say I could not foreseen the existence of scales with minor third till I saw them printed.
PS: Your ACT controller looks interesting. Did you use the new control surface SDK's that we posted recently to help build it?
I use IDL only (manually converted to C). My whole code is in C (not C++), compiled with cross GCC under Linux. I have not used new COM interfaces yet. I have tried "StepSize", but it is not really working as I expected.
Sorry for off topic, but since your are "here"... There are several threads about PC in Mackie plug-in. I do not have such device, but I am just wonder why it is not "work arounded" in plug-in till API is fixed in SONAR? May be it is already done on github, I have not checked, but in case it is not I can write the approach I have used.
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azslow3
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 10:03:31
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Indeed, doing it analytically demystifies it. It was a revelation to me when I first did this.
Minor thirds are common. The harmonic minor and harmonic major both have this intervals.
My first idea was to use half/full intervals only. But then I put "any" there. I mean I could forget harmonic scales without that. In addition I have got a prove that major third (or more) is not possible ;) Regarding the surface stuff, you did it the hard way :) Its much easier to start with the C++ ACT control surface and work from there for most people, I would think... I am "old school" programmer, why use wrapper when you can work directly? In most cases (and sorry to say, this SDK is not an exception), to use a wrapper "right" you should understand underlying API in any case. I have tried to use free VS first, does not work (no MFC). GCC C++ lib is one more potential problem for distribution, so I used C. May be I am just not from "most people" category. Regarding Mackie, not sure which issue you are referring to, but the surface is not act aware. So it would need to be modified to handle that. If I understand people correctly, there was possibility to control at least EQ (without ACT). And it was working (MCU, BCF, ...). With introduction of PC, it no longer works as before. The problem is a feature (but I think a bug or several of them) in SONAR that the filter ID is no longer "stable". When some strip is not in focus, only "old fashion" filters are exposed. And "EQ" has (as it was before) the id 0 (not sure that in all cases). As soon as the channel is focused (note that plug-in is not (always) informed when it is changed), filters get "natural" PC order, other PC modules are accessible and EQ is no longer "0" (till it is on the first place in PC).
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 10:59:38
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OK got it. I understand the problem if you dont have the VS IDE. Feel free to contact me off list if you are interested and we can try and get a resolution to the eq issue. Send me a pm and we can correspond.
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sharke
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 13:34:58
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
The way modes are taught in most theory books is by rote which is silly. Modes are a simple mathematical concept that apply to any series of intervals and yet they are normally only referenced with respect to a few scales. They are best learned as interval series but most people don't teach them that way.
When I was initially studying music the lack of information in this area frustrated me, so when I started programming in the 80's, I wrote some code using simple cyclic permutation math, to iteratively generate all possibilities of scales and modes in 12 tone music - 7, 8 tone scales, pentatonics and hexatonics...
The code was written in COBOL btw, and it ran overnight to compute that stuff on a Z80 microprocessor and print out pages of scales! That was my first music software project :) The stuff I learned from that exercise changed the way I thought about scales forever.
I toyed with BASIC and machine code as a kid but never really did anything much with it. Then in the early 90's I picked up a language called AMOS on the Amiga, read the reference manual from start to finish, and then set about writing a huge guitar/music utility from scratch. It basically self-taught me how to program (I didn't know anything about common practices, patterns or algorithms, I literally had to sit down and figure them out myself, albeit clumsily). One of the features I implemented in my program was to be able to give it any chord, scale or random sequence of notes and to get back every possible chord, inversion and scale that was either included within those notes, or which those notes were a part of. So you could give it the notes of a G major scale and it would tell you all the modes, as well as which exotic pentatonic and jazz scales were included in those notes. God knows what my algorithms would look like now if I looked at them again. I have a feeling they were not the "correct" way of doing it, but it worked perfectly and I remember spending hours with my guitar at the computer because the results it gave taught me a ton about chord substitution and what scales could be played with chords etc. I was incorporating all sorts of exotic scales and modes into my playing after that, and my understanding of chord substitution increased exponentially 
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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robert_e_bone
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 14:13:44
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
OK got it. I understand the problem if you dont have the VS IDE. Feel free to contact me off list if you are interested and we can try and get a resolution to the eq issue. Send me a pm and we can correspond.
If you were referring to the full-blown Visual Studio IDE, couldn't they use the freely downloadable Visual Studio Express? Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Guitarpima
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 14:28:54
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I should have changed by answer to 2 since there are 2 whole tone scales. What are the other 4? I would like to learn them.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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azslow3
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 14:33:13
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The output from my program, 0/1/2 - minor second/major second/minor third ;)
0110111
0101111
1010102
0110102
0101102
0101012
Number of scales: 6
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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dubdisciple
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 15:18:30
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The Write in C song
When I find my code in tons of trouble,
Friends and colleagues come to me,
Speaking words of wisdom:
"Write in C."
As the deadline fast approaches,
And bugs are all that I can see,
Somewhere, someone whispers:
"Write in C."
Write in C, Write in C,
Write in C, oh, Write in C.
BASIC's dead and buried,
Write in C.
I used to write a lot of FORTRAN,
For science it worked flawlessly.
Try using it for graphics!
Write in C.
If you've just spent nearly 30 hours,
Debugging some assembly,
Soon you will be glad to
Write in C.
Write in C, Write in C,
Write in C, yeah, Write in C.
LOGO's not the answer.
Write in C.
Write in C, Write in C
Write in C, oh, Write in C.
Pascal won't quite cut it.
Write in C.
Date posted: 28th March 2000
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robert_e_bone
Moderator
- Total Posts : 8968
- Joined: 2007/12/26 22:09:28
- Location: Palatine, IL
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 17:12:09
(permalink)
There ain't no cure, for the subroutine blues.....
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Cakewalk Staff
- Total Posts : 6475
- Joined: 2003/11/03 17:22:50
- Location: Boston, MA, USA
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 19:34:31
(permalink)
Nice. Here is a link to my 7 tone scale theory that might be a slightly more understandable :) azslow3
The output from my program, 0/1/2 - minor second/major second/minor third ;)
0110111
0101111
1010102
0110102
0101102
0101012
Number of scales: 6
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Cakewalk Staff
- Total Posts : 6475
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- Location: Boston, MA, USA
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Re: OT: Fundamentals of Music Theory
2014/07/20 19:39:17
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sharke
I toyed with BASIC and machine code as a kid but never really did anything much with it. Then in the early 90's I picked up a language called AMOS on the Amiga, read the reference manual from start to finish, and then set about writing a huge guitar/music utility from scratch. It basically self-taught me how to program (I didn't know anything about common practices, patterns or algorithms, I literally had to sit down and figure them out myself, albeit clumsily). One of the features I implemented in my program was to be able to give it any chord, scale or random sequence of notes and to get back every possible chord, inversion and scale that was either included within those notes, or which those notes were a part of. So you could give it the notes of a G major scale and it would tell you all the modes, as well as which exotic pentatonic and jazz scales were included in those notes. God knows what my algorithms would look like now if I looked at them again. I have a feeling they were not the "correct" way of doing it, but it worked perfectly and I remember spending hours with my guitar at the computer because the results it gave taught me a ton about chord substitution and what scales could be played with chords etc. I was incorporating all sorts of exotic scales and modes into my playing after that, and my understanding of chord substitution increased exponentially
Very cool. There are lots of ideas you can unlock using a computer to help you visualize stuff this way.
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