One week later

OK, we're just over one week into the birth of X1b.  Is it everything you hoped it would be?  Has anybody made the switch from 8.5.3 yet?  Happy with the bug fixes?  For me, so far, it has been very stable, and thanks to Benstat and SonarPlus, very functional.  I'm still annoyed by the implementation of automation because I think it takes far too many keystrokes to use, but it shines elsewhere such as the smart tool.  My bug was taken care of when they fixed the lasso function.  How is AudioSnap working for you?  I rarely use it, but I may start if it's fixed.  I have used V-Vocal with no problems, but I've noticed others still having troubles with it.

I was just curious because I seem to notice less hostility in this forum than there was a few week ago.  Some of the chronic complainers seem to be quiet, so can I assume that some of us are spending more time creating?  I hope so.  Still, I hope that CW keeps working on whatever loose ends that are left and puts out another patch or two before the next version comes out.  I hope that in the next version, CW puts back some of the right click functions that are missing in this version, but it's too early to worry about stuff like that.  To the CW staff:  good job, but don't rest on your laurels.

I own X1, and have downloaded the A and B patches, but why in the world would I switch to it when I have active client work?  I mean, what's the rush?  Has 8.5.3 stopped working?  Wasn't it doing just fine before X1 came out?  I hate to say it, but you guys are gonna be the guinea pigs, not me.  By the time I start using X (anything), it will work to the same degree (or better) than my current version, or I simply won't switch.  Most of my clients have no idea what the X1 interface looks like, and don't care which version I use.  What they DO care about is how quickly I can turn the work around.

This thing of going for the new for newness' sake is truly baffling.  Want to know what would really make Cake get their act together?  That would happen if nobody used the new product until it works right...  All the way through.  That would certainly instill a "sense of urgency" in the management team.

Do you realize that by using what is admittedly a very sloppy implementation you are enabling that sloppy model?  The way to get prompt (ok, even more prompt) bullet proof releases is to hold Roland's (yes it's Roland now - Get used to it) feet to the fire by simply uninstalling X1, telling everyone that you've done that, and using a perfectly good 8.5.3 until the vast majority of the reports made by those who insist on using the latest-greatest are wonderfully positive.  This way you can let them be the guinea pigs.

I have yet to see that, and until I do, I will merrily make music using a great product whose interface I am adept with, and whose short comings I know well, and know how to avoid.  I guess some people just enjoy suffering.  Not me.  This X1 issue does not bother me at all, because I don't use it.  If something tastes bad, stop eating it.  It's probably not good for you.

Stop enabling, and behavior will change.  That is a universal concept.

Lynn

Poco


I own X1, and have downloaded the A and B patches, but why in the world would I switch to it when I have active client work?  I mean, what's the rush?  Has 8.5.3 stopped working?  Wasn't it doing just fine before X1 came out?  I hate to say it, but you guys are gonna be the guinea pigs, not me.  By the time I start using X (anything), it will work to the same degree (or better) than my current version, or I simply won't switch.  Most of my clients have no idea what the X1 interface looks like, and don't care which version I use.  What they DO care about is how quickly I can turn the work around.

This thing of going for the new for newness' sake is truly baffling.  Want to know what would really make Cake get their act together?  That would happen if nobody used the new product until it works right...  All the way through.  That would certainly instill a "sense of urgency" in the management team.

Do you realize that by using what is admittedly a very sloppy implementation you are enabling that sloppy model?  The way to get prompt (ok, even more prompt) bullet proof releases is to hold Roland's (yes it's Roland now - Get used to it) feet to the fire by simply uninstalling X1, telling everyone that you've done that, and using a perfectly good 8.5.3 until the vast majority of the reports made by those who insist on using the latest-greatest are wonderfully positive.  This way you can let them be the guinea pigs.

I have yet to see that, and until I do, I will merrily make music using a great product whose interface I am adept with, and whose short comings I know well, and know how to avoid.  I guess some people just enjoy suffering.  Not me.  This X1 issue does not bother me at all, because I don't use it.  If something tastes bad, stop eating it.  It's probably not good for you.

Stop enabling, and behavior will change.  That is a universal concept.

You make some good points.  Why upgrade if your version works for you?  I know I've been guilty of the upgrade fever every year, but we're getting close to saturation as far as new features are concerned.  As long as Sonar plays nice with third party plug ins the need for change gets less and less.  Yet, I'm sure many would like to see more stability and a better audio engine among other things.  As for me, I'm happy to be your guinea pig, and I would not hesitate to start a commercial production center based on X1b.

I wouldn't say I'm suffering through this at all!. In fact, I enjoy the process of learning the features and working through some of the challenges. With few exceptions, I've been able to work through most of the issues that I have come across, and by doing so, I'm becoming increasingly familiar with X1 (this is usually the case when learning to use any new software product).  Maybe I've been lucky, but X1 has been stable, feature rich, and is becoming an important tool in my creative process (knocking on wood)! That said... if there's no need, and you're happy with what you have (and it continues to make you money by allowing you to keep your clients happy).... then why would you change?! Makes perfect sense to me.

I switched at X1 never mind x1b, and aside from the initial bugs I'm finding most things quicker the 'new way', once I get used to the change, most of them seem to make sense.

The only thing I've found with X1b is there are a few 'quirky' moments. They haven't stopped me working yet, just oddities.

The most persistent but not consistent one is when I get a message to say my audio device doesn't work at the current sample rate. Usually while the audio is still playing back. I click the ok button and it goes away, it doesn't usually happen more than once per project but it does seem to happen at least once in a project.

This started in X1b, never saw it in X1 or X1a.

Using audiosnap without any troubles but mainly just for correcting timing issues on single tracks rather than anything more complex. V-Vocal has always worked for me anyway and that doesn't seem to have changed.

The way to get prompt (ok, even more prompt) bullet proof releases is to hold Roland's (yes it's Roland now - Get used to it) feet to the fire by simply uninstalling X1, telling everyone that you've done that, and using a perfectly good 8.5.3 until the vast majority of the reports made by those who insist on using the latest-greatest are wonderfully positive.  This way you can let them be the guinea pigs.

'fraid you've got a little logic problem there, Einstein. You're telling all the guinea pigs to stop being guinea pigs until the guinea pigs have identified and reported all the bugs so Cakewalk can fix them. If we all stop using X1, there won't be any guinea pigs, nothing will get reported, and little will get fixed.


You should give thanks to all who have sacrificed their time and energy to help Cakewalk improve the product so you can have the fruits of their labor without lifting a finger to help.


Got privilege?

I am angry too!! ^5 on the rude sarcasm!!

Less painful to let the steam out through my internet connection than through my ears.

Lynn

Poco


I own X1, and have downloaded the A and B patches, but why in the world would I switch to it when I have active client work?  I mean, what's the rush?  Has 8.5.3 stopped working?  Wasn't it doing just fine before X1 came out?  I hate to say it, but you guys are gonna be the guinea pigs, not me.  By the time I start using X (anything), it will work to the same degree (or better) than my current version, or I simply won't switch.  Most of my clients have no idea what the X1 interface looks like, and don't care which version I use.  What they DO care about is how quickly I can turn the work around.

This thing of going for the new for newness' sake is truly baffling.  Want to know what would really make Cake get their act together?  That would happen if nobody used the new product until it works right...  All the way through.  That would certainly instill a "sense of urgency" in the management team.

Do you realize that by using what is admittedly a very sloppy implementation you are enabling that sloppy model?  The way to get prompt (ok, even more prompt) bullet proof releases is to hold Roland's (yes it's Roland now - Get used to it) feet to the fire by simply uninstalling X1, telling everyone that you've done that, and using a perfectly good 8.5.3 until the vast majority of the reports made by those who insist on using the latest-greatest are wonderfully positive.  This way you can let them be the guinea pigs.

I have yet to see that, and until I do, I will merrily make music using a great product whose interface I am adept with, and whose short comings I know well, and know how to avoid.  I guess some people just enjoy suffering.  Not me.  This X1 issue does not bother me at all, because I don't use it.  If something tastes bad, stop eating it.  It's probably not good for you.

Stop enabling, and behavior will change.  That is a universal concept.

You make some good points.  Why upgrade if your version works for you?  I know I've been guilty of the upgrade fever every year, but we're getting close to saturation as far as new features are concerned.  As long as Sonar plays nice with third party plug ins the need for change gets less and less.  Yet, I'm sure many would like to see more stability and a better audio engine among other things.  As for me, I'm happy to be your guinea pig, and I would not hesitate to start a commercial production center based on X1b.

 
I think you are kind of missing my point.  It's not just that 8.5.3 works for me, it's that 8.5.3 works, and X1 by many accounts does not work as well as 8.5.3.  Now, granted, I don't use V-Vocal, I have Melodyne, and I don't use Audio Snap.  Insofar as building a commercial production center based on X1 in it's current form...  I would not stake my professional reputation on a product that was released with no fewer than 174 bugs (and that's not even counting the X1a patch, just the X1b).  I mean, why wreck your reputation on a product that is very obviously not "fully baked" (pun intended). 
 
Let's take a poll:
 
How many lost takes\blue screens\freezes does it take for the client to never book another project with your studio?
 
I say 2
 
Poco
 

 

Poco

Lynn

Poco


I own X1, and have downloaded the A and B patches, but why in the world would I switch to it when I have active client work?  I mean, what's the rush?  Has 8.5.3 stopped working?  Wasn't it doing just fine before X1 came out?  I hate to say it, but you guys are gonna be the guinea pigs, not me.  By the time I start using X (anything), it will work to the same degree (or better) than my current version, or I simply won't switch.  Most of my clients have no idea what the X1 interface looks like, and don't care which version I use.  What they DO care about is how quickly I can turn the work around.

This thing of going for the new for newness' sake is truly baffling.  Want to know what would really make Cake get their act together?  That would happen if nobody used the new product until it works right...  All the way through.  That would certainly instill a "sense of urgency" in the management team.

Do you realize that by using what is admittedly a very sloppy implementation you are enabling that sloppy model?  The way to get prompt (ok, even more prompt) bullet proof releases is to hold Roland's (yes it's Roland now - Get used to it) feet to the fire by simply uninstalling X1, telling everyone that you've done that, and using a perfectly good 8.5.3 until the vast majority of the reports made by those who insist on using the latest-greatest are wonderfully positive.  This way you can let them be the guinea pigs.

I have yet to see that, and until I do, I will merrily make music using a great product whose interface I am adept with, and whose short comings I know well, and know how to avoid.  I guess some people just enjoy suffering.  Not me.  This X1 issue does not bother me at all, because I don't use it.  If something tastes bad, stop eating it.  It's probably not good for you.

Stop enabling, and behavior will change.  That is a universal concept.

You make some good points.  Why upgrade if your version works for you?  I know I've been guilty of the upgrade fever every year, but we're getting close to saturation as far as new features are concerned.  As long as Sonar plays nice with third party plug ins the need for change gets less and less.  Yet, I'm sure many would like to see more stability and a better audio engine among other things.  As for me, I'm happy to be your guinea pig, and I would not hesitate to start a commercial production center based on X1b.

 
I think you are kind of missing my point.  It's not just that 8.5.3 works for me, it's that 8.5.3 works, and X1 by many accounts does not work as well as 8.5.3.  Now, granted, I don't use V-Vocal, I have Melodyne, and I don't use Audio Snap.  Insofar as building a commercial production center based on X1 in it's current form...  I would not stake my professional reputation on a product that was released with no fewer than 174 bugs (and that's not even counting the X1a patch, just the X1b).  I mean, why wreck your reputation on a product that is very obviously not "fully baked" (pun intended). 
 
Let's take a poll:
 
How many lost takes\blue screens\freezes does it take for the client to never book another project with your studio?
 
I say 2
 
Poco
 

 

I don't think I missed your point at all.  If 8.5.3 works for you then stay with it.  In the years I've been with CW, every version had a long list of fixes that were addressed through numerous patches.  All my Sony software has been patched several times correcting small or large problems, so it's not unique to CW.  That doesn't make any of my software less effective.  I do appreciate you opinion because, hopefully, it will spur CW into making a better product in the long run.

Excellent advice Jim.  Any software used in a professional environment should be approached in the conservative and methodical manner you describe.  Causes you and your clients fewer headaches.   In my case, I bought the X1 update, played around with it, discovered some problems, and put it away until X1b - which I am finding much more stable.  In the meanwhile, 8.5.3 still worked fine.

Regards

Yes... I do agree with most of what Jim has said...

I've had X1 since it came out and tho it has bugs then and now (as does all software) it has run reasonably stable here all this time...

I agree about the clean-up process for a new release (and every adjustment made at any time) and I'm more than willing to deal with that...

My main issues here are with design changes not all of which have improved the system for all of us. Cakewalk has always surpassed itself at giving it's users what they ask for and typically throwing in a few extras they think of along the way... So I'm not surprised that they attacked the issues that they did. ...and as with any new ideas they often (???) need further refinement before they are solid to the majority...

So my 'need' of X1c is mostly that of design adaptation. I'm sure by now they see that some of the changes need more development and are hard at work doing so. (Go Get 'em Bakers!)

In it's current situation I find it too slow/cumbersome for me to use and charge the rates I do as no matter how I approach it, my workflow is slowed... and as there is nothing in it that's not in 8.5.3 (except the Prochannel which I have plenty of plugins to replace it with), I stay in 8.5.3.... If I thought their music would sound better or get done easier I would move them, but alas this is not the case...

I use what many would consider only a medium amount of automation, but in this day and age it is crucial, the the envelope issues are too difficult for me to get around... I don't use audiosnap (tho I have tried on occassion in any of it's releases)... I DO use VV quite a bit for both pitch and time correction and it's mostly fine tho I do have some issues with it... My opinion? Roland should spend more time fixing/updating their plugin than interfering (???) in Sonar decisions.... Stick to marketing/distribution! ;-)

So... without any further adieu, I'd love to hear from Cakewalk themselves (tho I do not for a moment expect to) that they are busy making these things happen so that X1c will finally bring those with my type issues back into the fold... I know they don't worry about losing a user or two.. it happens, But losing a user who has been such strong support will mean more than losing 100 new sales... (figurative)... ;-)

Keni

Poco


I AM NOT ANGRY!  I AM JUST BARKING REAL LOUD RIGHT NOW.  THERE IS A CHICKEN LOOSE, SO I AM BARKING!!

I love it!

Mudgel,

That last sentence in your post is my experience. Except I use Sonar PE 7.

I havent given up on X1. I never even upgraded. It seems to me that the whole thing was rushed out according to the things I have read here.

As a Reason 4 owner I am updating to Reason 5 as soon as I get my new Laptop in May or June but  I think I will hold off until X12 to upgrade or else see what other options are out there. I will make up my mind in late May early June about it.

I was quite excited when X1 came out. I've been a Cakewalk user since the DOS days and have been using their products primarily as a hobby and sometimes semi-professionally.

I had recently started some new projects right around the release of X1. Unfortunately I started having serious crash problems with X1 and I started to look at alternative products. I sort of settled into using Reaper.

Now that X1b is out I gave it a shot ...but.... I've come to value some Reaper features. For example, I've got a lot of tracks that I like to group into folders and sub-mixes (like 2 guitar amp mics or bass DI and mic, snare top/bottom etc). Also sub-mixes for drum bus etc. Reaper has the ability to hierarchically arrange tracks so you can create very flexible routing and  buss groupings. Reaper's folders can act as sub-mixes and folders can have sub folders all of which act as sub-mixes. I've found this very powerful and "streamlined". Also, Reaper has an envelope feature set that has improved my work flow.

The only way to handle sub-mixes in X1 I see is to route to buses. This means I've got to scroll back and forth between the main track view and the buses. X1 follows the more "traditional" old style hardware mixer analogy. I think Sonar has to migrate away from this old model.

Having gotten used to Reaper's implementation I find it hard to go back to X1 now. I'll bet others are in a similar situation now. Cakewalk may have lost market share because of the reliability debacle.

And I'm disappointed to see Cakewalk's slow turn-around. Again I've seen that in some cases the Reaper devs turn out fixes on a daily basis. This tells me that any ideas or feature requests presented to Cakewalk will most likely sit for quite some time while "bugs" are worked out.

And on another rant: Pro-channel. Looks like a great idea conceptually, and when it works it sounds good. But from the threads here it seems there are still issues. It also seems that Cakewalk took a strange approach at implementing pro channel. It seems that it has unique behavior (like when automating or controlling from another surface) it does not work like standard plug-ins. Speaking as a professional software developer... I would have implemented pro channel as a VST or DX plugin behind the scenes with the GUI (display panels) visible as they are now. This way all of the behavior of VSTs would have been "built in" and it would have functioned properly from the start.

Anyway, sorry for the rant..... I'm just disappointed because of all the years/dollars I've spent upgrading through each version of Cakewalk software. I hope they can speed up thier developement process and I would highly recommend a "public beta" test phase.

OK, we're just over one week into the birth of X1b.  Is it everything you hoped it would be?  Has anybody made the switch from 8.5.3 yet? 

I switched to X1 the day I got it and never looked back. The subsequent X1a and b bug fixes just kept making it better.

Happy with the bug fixes?  For me, so far, it has been very stable, and thanks to Benstat and SonarPlus, very functional.

Yes. I looked at SonarPlus for a bit and while it is very nicely done, it just seems too fiddly for me. I don't use it, but different strokes.

I'm still annoyed by the implementation of automation because I think it takes far too many keystrokes to use, but it shines elsewhere such as the smart tool. 

Yes to both. The smart tool is just that.

My bug was taken care of when they fixed the lasso function.  How is AudioSnap working for you?  I rarely use it, but I may start if it's fixed.  I have used V-Vocal with no problems, but I've noticed others still having troubles with it.

Some bugs were annoying, but weren't deal killers for me. I'm ashamed to admit that AudioSnap remains a mystery for me. I tried it when it first appeared in Sonar, didn't find it particularly useful and moved on. One of these days, though...

I use Melodyne (although I prefer the old school approach of trying to get the perfect take!) so, no particular interest in the past, present, or future of V-Vocal.

I was just curious because I seem to notice less hostility in this forum than there was a few week ago.  Some of the chronic complainers seem to be quiet, so can I assume that some of us are spending more time creating?

I kept quiet through the whole affair rather than add to the noise. Chronic complainers seemed to fall into three groups from my perspective. (1) Super-users who really did find bugs--in fairness there were too many bugs in the initial release, (2) people who had troubles overcoming the hurdles of learning a new GUI and therefore declared it "buggy," and (3) people with kludgy systems who blamed their hardware problems on the software. I suspect there were more in categories #2 and #3 than #1.

I was surprised at how few people acknowledged that Cakewalk engaged in a bet-your-company strategy and how terrifying it must have been for them to attempt a quantum leap for Sonar. As musicians, we all know how critically important it is to push ourselves and take risks. I'm proud of them. In the past few versions of Sonar, I felt that the company had fallen into the trap of incrementally improving the base DAW while relying on innovations in plug-ins to sell the new versions. I thought it was a failed strategy because specialists will always produce a superior solution (ex. V-Vocal vs. Melodyne) and the base DAW was becoming archaic. I got my wish, at least. For my part, I made a commitment to throw away long-time habits from the old interface and adapt to the new one. It only took a little while and is paying off daily.

I hope so.  Still, I hope that CW keeps working on whatever loose ends that are left and puts out another patch or two before the next version comes out.  I hope that in the next version, CW puts back some of the right click functions that are missing in this version, but it's too early to worry about stuff like that.  To the CW staff:  good job, but don't rest on your laurels.

Agree on all that. I'm thoroughly enjoying X1 and look forward to more improvements.

KeithAdv

I was surprised at how few people acknowledged that Cakewalk engaged in a bet-your-company strategy and how terrifying it must have been for them to attempt a quantum leap for Sonar. As musicians, we all know how critically important it is to push ourselves and take risks. I'm proud of them. In the past few versions of Sonar, I felt that the company had fallen into the trap of incrementally improving the base DAW while relying on innovations in plug-ins to sell the new versions. I thought it was a failed strategy because specialists will always produce a superior solution (ex. V-Vocal vs. Melodyne) and the base DAW was becoming archaic. I got my wish, at least. For my part, I made a commitment to throw away long-time habits from the old interface and adapt to the new one. It only took a little while and is paying off daily. 

That's a rather pithy paragraph... interesting thoughts and well presented. I'm pretty much in the same frame of mind about it all... though I'm not as far along the path of getting used to it yet. My basic reaction is quite positive though; I just hope that some of the remaining issues can be improved, so I'm really hopeful that X1b isn't the end of the road for this first iteration of the new paradigm.