P5 Terms/names like envelop generator etc. are they universal?

Hello everyone. I am studying the program and trying to grasp what certain things mean. I am new to the music arena still and trying to find out if project5 uses names/terms that are universal and all the music industry uses or as well as other music software.

For example, is the name envelop generator that project5 uses in the program used through out the music industry?

Thank you all for your help.

Jeff

Thank you Fac. That helped. The next step is to research.

I hope that cakewalk will start producing more up to date indepth tutorials and more explanation on what certain things mean. It seems like the help guide etc. is geared for some understanding of music in general. Atleast thats what it seems to me. There are people like me who are really new and need more indepth explanation.

If anybody else has more advice please don't hesitate to.

ORIGINAL: Nick Haddad [Cakewalk]

Project5 does have one overloaded term (that I know of) - "pattern". In other apps and/or hardware a pattern can mean any number of things. In Roland hardware for instance, a pattern often refers to a full 16 part song or part of a song that can be looped.

Thank you Nick. Do you think you guys will start producing up to date tutorials for p5v2 users? or more indepth guides for people like myself who are really new?

I have found some terms etc. from researching the net. Thank you again.

ORIGINAL: fac

Have you registered at www.project5.com ? There are some tutorials and videos up there.

Actually, I should of mentioned. Yes, I have looked everywhere. The tutorials that I found are fine, but I am looking for more indepth explanation on how certain things work. Right now I am studying the Modulators section in dimension. I am trying to find out what certain things mean and why? I will start playing around and see what happens. I am sure I will have a thread on this soon.

ORIGINAL: Nick Haddad [Cakewalk]

mrje1,

There is also some great resources on the Project5 Wiki, including more documentation, tutorials, and tips for lots of P5's instruments.

Also, this forum is a great place to get your questions answered! The Project5-ers in who frequent this forum are top notch!

Thanks Nick. Yes, I have been there before. Great resource. Right now I am studying the Modulators section in dimension and looking for more indepth information on it. I am kind of stuck.

ORIGINAL: b rock

Right now I am studying the Modulators section in dimension and looking for more indepth information on it. I am kind of stuck.

That was going to be my next Dimension Semi-Pro tutorial topic, Jeff. It was postponed by 'inclement weather'. Is there anything specific that I can answer to help dig you out of the rut, or can you wait a while for the entire overview? Either way, Jeff, or both.

It's half-written in my head, but it might be delayed a little further. Specific questions, though: I'd be willing to attempt an answer anytime.

Thank you B Rock. Appreciate your help. Cool. Can't wait for it to come out. Yes, I am probably going to have a huge list for you. Here is a few ?'s to start off with.

In the modulators section you have p pitch-c cutoff-r resonance-p pan-a amplitude selectors. Are these called envelops? What do they mean and do? Are these universal terms? Where could I find more info about them?

What is the main function of the modulators section?
When they say in the help files note-on, do they mean when the eg status is set to on?
In the graph area where you create nodes that turn into lines, what do they do in terms of how it affects the sample?

I will stop here and give you some more later. Thank you again for your time B.

Jeff

ORIGINAL: b rock

Now play a few notes on a keyboard, and listen to how the pitch sweeps will follow your curves. Now drag around the nodes all over, and even try changing the curve shape by clicking in the middle and dragging. Play those same few notes, and listen to how that has changed the pitch sweeping.

Wow, thank you B Rock for your answer. You are a great. I skimmed through it and some is coming to me. I wanted to get back to you because this could take time to read and process it in my brain.

One thing I would like to clarify since you mentioned keyboard. Do you mean a MIDI keyboard or musical keyboard or computer keyboard? If you are talking about a non computer keyboard, I do not own one yet.

I guess my question is, does the modulator section require a use of a musical or MIDI keyboard for it to work?

Thank you again. I shall get back to you with other ?'s once I am finished reading your response and other sources you sent me.

Thank you again B Rock. Cool. I will start practicing and see what happens. Thank you for that link. Perfect. Seems pretty cool to have a virtual MIDI Keyboard. This could help me learn in the meantime until I get my very own. Otherwise, I shall keep you posted on how I am doing. I probably will have more ?'s for you soon.

This is cool, Jeff. I can tell from the nature of these questions that you're starting to "get it". I'll try to answer them in order:

General synthesizer parameters are usually found across the board on different synth models. Filter parameters, the amplitude section, and many others are pretty much universal. The reason for this is that the overall structure is based on the early hardware analog synths. Of course, newer synths are going to contain wrinkles and terminology that aren't found in a general sense, especially something that exists in computer-based software. Even hardware synths nowadays are software-based, but there might be limitations on hardware features [sample memory; physical knobs and switches; attached keyboard, and the associated costs] that don't really apply to "pure software code" (for lack of a better term). So if you learn filters in one, the knowledge is transferrable to most synths. One thing, though: every synth's individual modules will have a distinctive sound to it, and perhaps a unique range of parameters; be it hardware or software. The differences are what makes the world go 'round.

TDIF in Dimension refers to the time difference between nodes on the horizontal axis. It's the amount of time between the selected node, and the one that comes before it. For example: you have three nodes set: one at the start [0.0], one 50.0 ms. from the start, and the third 500.0 ms. from the beginning of the envelope. The TDIF of the first node would be zero (no node before it), the second TDIF would be 50.0 ms., and the third TDIF will be 450.0 ms. It just does the math for you between nodes, so that you can adjust different stages of the envelope, defined by two nodes.

Not only do Dimension's envelope generators look different, they act differently. It might be better to say that they expand on what other EGs do. In my ADSR example above, you have an EG divided into four distinct components. In Dimension, it can be as many as you want. Each set of two nodes and a curve between represents the same thing as one of the ADSR components, so you could duplicate that setup with only five nodes. And in Dimension, you have control over the shape of the curved lines between, and several other options. It's an EG on steroids, with the ability to add envelope components or configure existing ones with a drag of the mouse. It can do the exact same things as other envelope generators, with a whole lot more on top of that.

Each of the four Elements in Dimension is like it's own synth, so it's like getting four synths in one under common control. Since there's five EGs for each Element, times four Elements in total, you get 20 EGs in all (and 20 LFOs, and 20 Keytracking controls). The five parameters [P-C-R-P-A] apply to only that selected Element [determined by those E1-E4 switches at the top). But you get 5 for each of the Elements.

I shouldn't have used "hard-wired" in the description. What I was saying was that Dimension's Pitch envelope is already connected to an Element's pitch function, and can't be routed to anything else. There are other synths that just have an assignable [general-purpose] EG, and you have to consciously choose the destination that you want it to effect. In that scenario, an assignable EG would do nothing until you "connected" it (virtually) to a parameter like pitch, cutoff, etc. Two different roads to the same place: one more versatile; the other more hassle-free.

The majority of the "action" happening with the first two nodes means that either the note that you're triggering the synth with (in the Editor) is too short to hear everything, or the envelope that you drew is too long (same thing, really). Try adjusting things until the envelope is more obvious. I had you explore Pitch because it gives the fastest results. The others can be a little tricky. For example, if you have a filter in a patch that isn't too steep, you might not hear much difference by sweeping the cutoff frequency. Some of the filters don't feature resonance, so you won't hear much there with the "R" envelope, either. Try switching the filter to something serious like a LP 6p filter, and bring up the Resonance knob a little. [Careful of your speakers and ears.]

The panning envelope should be obvious with stereo playback, but the Amplitude one can present some problems for new users, too. I don't want to confuse you, but there's a 'hidden' EG that works silently in the background. Check out Rene's DimensionalTips on the Wiki for an explanation. The 'visible' EG kinda overrides the 'hidden' one. It's just a way to control loudness over time. Think of a plucked guitar or piano string. Besides all of the harmonic changes going on, it starts out loud (with the pluck), decays to a sustained level, and gradually fades out as the string ceases to vibrate any more. So, to roughly emulate this, you'd have the intial node up high, the 2nd maybe a quarter down from the top, a 3rd one close to but under the second level, but way down the time axis, and a 4th at zero further still. There's more fine-tuning involved to get it right, but that's the general "shape".

Presets are great, but it might be confusing to use them for envelope explorations. There might be a whole lot going on already, and it's hard to track down exactly what goes where. So here's my suggestion: Load up a bare instance of Dimension, and bring it up where you can see it. Instead of selecting a pre-made Program from the Program Browser [Empty Program line at the top], click on the Empty Multisample line a little further down. It'll open up a browser window, and you want to navigate to 00 - Wavetables. Choose any one of these, and start your EG explorations. Make sure that the EGs are enabled [EG On], and the Depth is set to 100% (for now).

The advantages to this while learning are that you're only dealing with a single sound in one Element, and the EGs all have nothing in them. It's a lot more apparent when you start making changes and adding nodes under this situation, and the results will be easier to hear. Remember that moving the curves is more subtle than moving the nodes around. After you get a little more familiar with how everything works in the EGs, and what to expect from moving the nodes, the curve changes will jump out at you. In effect, you're changing how the parameter moves between two nodes, like slowly at first, and then faster, or straight through like an arrow. Don't worry about this yet, Jeff. It'll come.

You don't have to use the Modulator section at all. You can keep a parameter static, and come up with some good sounds. You can even use your mouse to change the knob settings on, say, the cutoff frequency of your filter, and if you're good enough at it, come very close to what a "C" envelope would do for you. But what if you want to do *two* things at the same time, or more? [Trust me: you will.] Or what happens when you get that MIDI controller? The envelopes gives you extra sets of hands, like you had 31 talented people playing a synth and controlling the parameters at the same time. It's an automatic process to animate your sounds, and one that can be repeatable every time a note passes through Dimension. You can change a TV channel at the set, but everyone eventually comes to prefer using the remote.

Did I catch them all, Jeff? Gee, you're being too easy on me. What else 'ya got? <g>

I was just kidding a little about the "easy" part, Jeff. There's nothing easy or basic about starting out with sound design programming, because there are so many interlocking concepts to wrap your head around. Dimension: even more so, because it's so deep. And it's not really that easy for me to explain, because these are things that I've learned, but I've gotten to the point where I don't think about the actual process and terminology. So this is good for both of us, and it forces me to reinforce my procedures & re-check the accuracy of what I'm telling you. Keep 'em coming.

There's nothing to the "IF" in TDIF. It truncated and contracted like this: Time Difference. The Help file refers to this readout as "delta", which just means a change; the difference between one value and another. These values are just readouts that help you to navigate through the nodes, and know where you are at a glance. You'll see the EG type and node number together [like Amplitude - #0/0], the time from the beginning of the envelope, the time difference of the node from the previous node, and the level (vertical height) of that particular node.

For now, don't get too bogged down on the exact numbers. A few fractional milliseconds either way won't make much audible difference. Soon you'll be relying solely on your ears to finetune an envelope, and only occasionally glance at the readouts for reference. Dimension already "knows" the values; the readouts are there to help you along.

Say you want a relatively slow buildup in the initial Attack of a note (between the first & second nodes), and 786 ms. sounds just right. You want the whole envelope of the note to complete within 2 seconds, but an abrupt release of the note sounds unnatural, so you give it a 98 ms. drift to zero (between the third & fourth nodes). You can get out the calculator, or you can look at the TDIF between the second & third nodes, and adjust until you see 1116 ms., and that would be your initial Decay stage length. I'm trying not to make this sound complicated (like it does), but it's just a way to check back in "the middle" of an envelope that's already partially constructed.

When I get a chance a little later on, I'll try to come up with an easy example to demonstrate the cutoff and resonance envelopes. It seems that you've already discovered how powerful certain resonance settings can be. That's because it's actually a feedback parameter, and takes a portion of the filter's output, and cycles it back to the input. Just like that classic microphone feedback sound, it can easily turn into "runaway" feedback and get out of control. Be careful when you do this, and click on that Limiter On button as a safety device. It'll help to clamp down on the craziness, and keeping your synth and track levels low during experimentation will save your speakers and your ears. Flirting with "self-oscillation" (yes, you can actually turn a filter into another oscillator doing this) is a delicate thing, but it can produce the most awesome sounds by "riding the edge" without going over the brink.

You might try this: Load up a multisample from the folder that I described above [00- Wavetables]. Go to the Amplitude envelope turn it On, , and set a second node (first one's there as a default) way up at the upper-right of the graph (around 1000 ms.). Drag the curve down towards the bottom of the graph, so you have a gradual fade-in. Now right-click on the "A" button, and select Copy Envelope. Right click on both the "C" and "R" buttons, and select Paste Envelope. You now have identical envelopes in amplitude, cutoff and resonance. Go up to the Filter section, and choose LP 6p. Turn the Cutoff knob to around 9 o'clock (up a quarter of the way), and the Resonance knob up 3/4 (around 3 o'clock). You'll now have cutoff and resonance "sweeps" that follow the gradual volume buildup of the amplitude envelope. I think that'll get you started, and you can take it from there.

Project5 is digital synthesis. Everything in software is, including modern hardware synths. If you happen to find an old analog hardware synth from the early '80's or earlier ... let me know. I'll buy it. Those were true analog synths, which used physical components like capacitors, resistors, and op-amps to produce their sounds. People used to **** about how complicated, unreliable, and unstable they were, and production died off for a time. It became more cost-effective and reliable to produce synthersizers using digital circuits. Then computers came along, and the cost-ratio dropped when folks realized that they were now powerful enough to use as a general sound design device.

But something was missing. People now started complaining that digital synthesis sounded too perfect and sterile, and began to re-discover what true analog had to offer. Thing is, true analogs wear out, and were becoming too expensive to produce, and too rare to find intact. So manufacturers and programmers looked to ways to "model" or emulate the sound of analog synthesis within a totally digital environment. That's where the confusion lies. These synths are called "virtual analog", or "analog-modeled": copies of analog synthesis in a digital package.

Most of the same naming conventions and component names (like envelope, oscillator, low-frequency oscillator, patch, etc.) have stuck, providing a nice continuity in the learning curve, but adding to the confusion. There's another development: some manufacturers have gone back to true analog synth production in search of capturing that original sound. Here's a very general rule of thumb: if you can't afford it, it's true analog. <g> Look to synths like the Alesis Andromeda, the Moog Voyager, or Dave Smith's Poly Evolver for modern examples of true analog.

So, 99 out of a hundred times, you're dealing with digital synthesis. Some methods embrace that, some synths ride the line between, and some seek to emulate the analog synths from the past. But there's all digital; even a hardware synth like my Alesis Ion which "models" analog behavior. Dimension uses samples, wavetables (single-cycle "drawings" of an oscillator), and physical modeling (waveguide) synthesis. So you'll get a little "flavor" of true analog with the samples (which are digitized, often real-world examples), but it all just ones and zeros.

It's how you creatively do the math that counts. It's all about the final sound, Jeff. Doesn't really matter how you get there. HTH

ORIGINAL: fac
Somebody please PDF this thread.

I'm all ears! However, it is so dynamic at the moment I'm not going to touch it. However, I reorganized the Project5 Wiki: Project5 Documentation and Tutorials section to include General Synth Programming tips and I listed a link to this thread for now. http://p5.sonarama.com/p5/index.php/Tutorial_List#General_Synth_Programming_and_Sound_Effects_Tips

Thank you again. I am very happy that I have produced a thread that will be beneficial for everyone. I am all about helping people. Once I really learn this program maybe I can be like you (B Rock and everone alike) and put my 2 cents in. I am glad that I am helping you reiterate what you have learned. I am feeling really good.

There's nothing to the "IF" in TDIF. It truncated and contracted like this: Time Difference

Perfect, Now I see. T=Time DIF=Difference. Duh, normally I see these things.


The reason why I asked about digital and anolog synthesis is because I picked up some articles that were about analog synthesis and I wanted to make sure I wasn't reading the wrong material. From what I understand and please tell me if I am wrong and As you said: "So manufacturers and programmers looked toways to "model" or emulate the sound of analog synthesis within a totally digital environment. That's where the confusion lies. These synths are called "virtual analog", or "analog-modeled": copies of analog synthesis in a digital package. Most of the same naming conventions and component names (like envelope, oscillator, low-frequency oscillator, patch, etc.) have stuck, providing a nice continuity in the learning curve, but adding to the confusion." That basically tells it all. Is that Project 5 uses Digital Synthesis, but uses the concepts of Analog Synthesis like envelope, oscillator, low-frequency oscillator and etc. So, if I were to read an article on Analog Synthesis like From HereI would be ok and it would apply to what I am trying to learn now, which is Project5.

So, am I on the ball?

When I get a chance a little later on, I'll try to come up with an easy example to demonstrate the cutoff and resonance envelopes. It seems that you've already discovered how powerful certain resonance settings can be. That's because it's actually a feedback parameter, and takes a portion of the filter's output, and cycles it back to the input. Just like that classic microphone feedback sound, it can easily turn into "runaway" feedback and get out of control. Be careful when you do this, and click on that Limiter On button as a safety device. It'll help to clamp down on the craziness, and keeping your synth and track levels low during experimentation will save your speakers and your ears. Flirting with "self-oscillation" (yes, you can actually turn a filter into another oscillator doing this) is a delicate thing, but it can produce the most awesome sounds by "riding the edge" without going over the brink.

Because I am still new and I am sure I can do research on this, but as for the benefit of everyone if you can elaborate what is feedback in general.

When comes to the "Limiter Button" Should you keep this on at all times? As you said: "it is a safety device." Could you give a few more instances on when you should have the limiter button on.

You might try this: Load up a multisample from the folder that I described above [00- Wavetables]. Go to the Amplitude envelope turn it On, , and set a second node (first one's there as a default) way up at the upper-right of the graph (around 1000 ms.). Drag the curve down towards the bottom of the graph, so you have a gradual fade-in. Now right-click on the "A" button, and select Copy Envelope. Right click on both the "C" and "R" buttons, and select Paste Envelope. You now have identical envelopes in amplitude, cutoff and resonance. Go up to the Filter section, and choose LP 6p. Turn the Cutoff knob to around 9 o'clock (up a quarter of the way), and the Resonance knob up 3/4 (around 3 o'clock). You'll now have cutoff and resonance "sweeps" that follow the gradual volume buildup of the amplitude envelope. I think that'll get you started, and you can take it from there.

As I tried this, the default node at its default setting and the second node at the upper right corner and dragged the curve toward the bottom. I played my sample and didn't get any sound, but when I moved the default node up a bit I then heard the sound and played with the cutoff and resonance knob and heard the changes. To clarify as I am still new with some terms. When you say "Sweeps" what do you mean? Maybe I need more practice, but I am not hearing the gradual volume build up. Is it subtle?

I think this could be a stupid question. When it comes to "Level", does this mean the level of which you hear things etc.? I want to get a bit more technical with this.

I hope I am not being redundant of anything. If I am, sorry.

B Rock, I was going to ask some questions on LFO section. Should I in this thread?

Excellent.

You got it, Jeff. Analog synthesis concepts apply to most synths in a digital environment, so none of the research and learning process is wasted. The concepts are all transferable, even if some specifics are different. Learn envelopes in Dimension, and you can apply that to anything else. Once you get past the thought that the others are so primitive, that is.

Perfect. Now we can move on.

Since I have to run out for the day, I was going to get into these parameters in the envelope section. The Vel->Tim, Vel->int and veltrack. I read on somewhat how it does in the help files. Maybe you can get into more depth on how it affects samples.

Well, Jeff, my weekend got a little crazy starting Thursday night. Let's see if I can recover these questions (and some brain cells), and get back on track.

To back up to the earlier reply: Vel->Tim, Vel->Int and VelTrack all use the velocity messages that accompany a MIDI Note On to vary the envelope affected. Whenever you hit a key on a MIDI controller, it sends out a composite message in three parts: First, there's a "code" for the current MIDI channel that's transmitting. This keeps one controller's notes separated from any of 15 others (or more with Ports). Next, a MIDI note number from 1 to 128. The third message, velocity, indicates how fast (or subjectively how hard) you hit a particular key. This is usually used with loudness levels to give an expressive variation of level from note to note.

But you can use the message for just about anything in P5. I use it all the time to control any parameter that I need hands-on control for, and use the 128 different variations to input some nuance under fingertip control. I think that the virtual KB that I pointed you to earlier sends a different velocity value depending on how "high" or "low" you click on the GUI key itself. At any rate, if you're using patterns in the Editor, velocity is the default MIDI message that comes up, and you can draw in variations with the Automation Tool. If there's no variation (all velocities are at the same level), it'll be difficult to hear what the Dimension parameters are doing.

Once again, let's go to the Pitch Envelope. Load up an fm multisample, and draw a node or two in the P section; close to the beginning. If you trigger velocity variations now, you'll hear the same pitch envelope with each note. But try this: don't even turn the Status to On, but raise the Depth to +2400 [2 octaves]. Now "hard" notes of a velocity value of 128 produce a "pitch sweep" that climbs up to two octaves above, and "softer" notes produce sweeps anywhere from that point down to a pitch change of zero. That is, the original pitch envelope will always still be intact (if it's been turned On), but how high it goes as a maximum can be controlled by your note's velocity value. The Depth also goes down to -2400, and always is displayed in units that are appropriate to that type of envvelope (like percentages of amplitude levels). As you can tell, this parameter is always "On".

For Vel -> Tim, I'm going to send you to the source: read DimensionalTips Attack with Velocity by Rene. As you know, it has to do with using your individual note velocities to expand or contract the timings that you've set in your node position in the envelope. This'll scale your envelope up and down, changing a two second total envelope to a four second one, by using a multiplier of 2.0, or a one second envelope with .5. It's got a huge range [.01 to 100], and it'll affect each segment setting (from left to right), but maintain the proportional distance beteen segments.

Vel -> Int. This is tough to describe for me. It translates note velocity to intensity, which regulates how much the envelope gets involved. It's almost like VelTrack, but ... let's just try an example instead of confusing the issue. Go to that little Pitch Envelope example above, and double-click on VelTrack to reset it to defaults, and take it out of the equation. This is kinda interesting: Set the Depth to a maximum value, and the Vel -> Int parameter to the minimum [-2400]. Now if you hit the "hardest" velocity of 128, there is absolutely no pitch change. The two parameters offset each other perfectly. Anything less than 128, and you'll hear the pitch sweeping come in. I may be way off, but I think of this one as an "expression" device, and VelTrack as an "overall" control.

You can see that these three velocity parameters would all be useful wiith live keyboard input. I'm going to give you the scoop on the ADSR stuff a little later on (it deserves a separate post in this thread), but I'll give you a head start on what's coming. First of all, remember that each node in Dimension represents both a level and a point in time simultaneously. So when comparing to an ADSR, an Attack time can also be an Attack level, and a Sustain level can also be bookended by Sustain "times". It's a little different approach; it really covers two modules with 3 nodes and two curves, and it's a whole lot more versatile.

Something else to chew on before the next explanation arrives: DimensionalTips: Naturally Released. That'll help you with the whole Release stage concept, which can happen after your note is done "playing".
Here's the one I mentioned that explained the 'hidden' Amplitude Envelope: DimensionalTips: Master of the Amplitude Envelopes.

That'll get you going. Why get your financial information from the tabloids when you can read the Wall Street Journal? <g> I'll be back ...

Edit: I'm just full of links tonight. Does that make me lazy? I'll still get to a step-by step reply to your last set of questions, but I need a little time for regeneration (Hehe. Yet another term for that feedback concept).

Here's another set of Computer Music tutorials that includes ADSRs, and it's geared towards the beginning user. There's a great complete MIDI tutorial here at the MMA site. Make sure to cruise the whole main site for reference purposes from time to time.

I'm going to take a somewhat unusual tact next. I'll use a specific synth's documentation to illustrate some general concepts; instead of the other way around. That Alesis Ion I mentioned earlier "models" the behavior of an analog synthesizer. The documentation is very complete in describing each section, or module of the synth, and it makes for an excellent primer on analog synthesis in general. If you get the time, try downloading the .pdf here, and read it in your spare time. Make sure to check out the Envelope section, and study the parameter descriptions. It's unusually good. HTH

ORIGINAL: b rock
...but I need a little time for regeneration (Hehe. Yet another term for that feedback concept).

The "feedback" concept or the "café cubano" concept?