COQUITO
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PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
Audio interfaces come in three flavors from what I researched. Is one better than the other?
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 07:43:38
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The key is making the right choice  If you make a good choice, you'll achieve excellent performance from USB 2.0, Firewire, or PCI/e. ie: The Fireface UC's performance is right on par with the best PCI/e units. That said, don't expect most USB units to offer this level of performance. Most USB audio interfaces suffer from high round-trip latency... as do many Firewire audio interfaces. USB - you have three good options that provide low round-trip latency: - RME Fireface UC (soon you can add the UFX and Babyface)
- M-Audio FastTrack Ultra 8R
- M-Audio FastTrack Ultra
Firewire - stick with one of these options for low round-trip latency: PCI/e - most of these units provide low round-trip latency... so you have many good choices: Round-trip latency is the sum of the following: - ASIO input buffer
- ASIO output buffer
- A/D and D/A coverter latency
- The driver's hidden safety buffer
Many typical USB and Firewire units use a large hidden safety-buffer to prevent glitches on playback. That assures most users experience glitch-free playback (even under less than ideal circumstances)... But that comes at the expense of high round-trip latency... and the bad part is that you usually have no control over the hidden safety buffer (so there's no means of adjusting/lowering it).
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Guitarhacker
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 08:13:14
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Jim covered that pretty well.
My experience:
I bought a Focusrite Saffire firewire interface at the recommendation of the sales guy. He did a good job in explaining the differences between the existing USB and firewire interfaces of the time ( 3yrs ago) and it seemed to me , at the time, that the firewire had the edge when it came to speed. I understand that is not necessarily the case now, as the USB interfaces have had nice improvements in many areas, including speed of data transfer.
I don't do alot of research or keep up with trends since I have a working interface, but I think I recall hearing that the firewire interface was slowly phasing out as the interface of choice...... (?)
Since I had a laptop, the PCI was not an option.
I have been very satisfied with the Focusrite firewire. Latency has not been an issue for me.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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COQUITO
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 09:24:42
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AT
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 10:23:04
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USB is probably the best choice if you plan to keep your interface a long, long time. PCI is only included in new computers, if at all, as a legacy, the technology moving onto PCIe. Same w/ FW. However, for the next few years both are doable - PCI will limit your computer choices somewhat but you can get a PCI/(e) card w/ FW for most desktops.
For the record, FW had a better practical speed earlier in the game - not anymore. It sounds like your reading goes back to USB 1, which was bandwidth limited. USB 2 is about the same speed as FW 400 and the drivers have caught up, so there is no theoritical difference. It is, as Jim sez, all in the drivers. If low latency is your main need, go w/ Jim's recommendations - he's the man.
PCIe or USB is futured proof - as much as possible, anyway. I hate to be dependent on motherboard slots, tho, since I've upgraded computers and have then had to upgrade my interface, or more often, my dual-screen card.
USB drivers are just now catching up w/ FW. If you can find something to fit your needs via USB, that is probably the better choice and the drivers will just keep getting better. FW is more mature, but a dying standard, tho there are still plenty of great deals out there. You should figure out your needs - inputs, etc. If you don't need more than stereo today having ADAt is a great way to buy now and spend money later when you do need i/o (and upgrade your preamps w/ something like the quad Focusrite or UA preamps w/ ADAT A/D).
There really isn't too much difference between the lower end cards sonic wise. It is all in the features and drivers - the best sounding interface doesn't do you any good if it won't work w/ your system. As always, find a seller that will let you return the unit if it won't work, for whatever reason, well enough for you. Get another brand in exchange, and their drivers should do the trick on your specific system. Even RME doesn't always play nice, and they have the least complaints I've seen.
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http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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batsbrew
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 10:46:40
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i went with a pci card, a maudio audiophile 192.
it's a great card, i have no issues with it.
but i'm also running 6PE, on winXP.
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windsurfer25x
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 11:07:01
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The question is not so much which interface is best for Sonar, but which interface is best for your computer or DAW as a whole (combo of operating system, computer hardware and host sequencer).
Jim covered a lot of stuff,
If you've got a local music store with some interfaces in stock, I would talk to the store and see if you would be able to test any of them out on your computer in store. My local store has been very helpful in that regard, seeing as how there are so many variables which contribute to performance, it is a highly over-simplified view to say this interface is better than that because you're on a PC.
Basically I'd be posting your computer OS and hardware and what you want to be doing musically, and ask the same question.
Driver stability is just as important if not more than important then the actual interface hardware itself...
From my experience, I'd want to have as much information as I could and hopefully test things out before I made a decision
Sonar X1 Expanded PE 64 bit
Intel i7 2600k oc'd, 16Gb DDR3 RAM, intel 320 SSD OS drive, 7200RPM HDDx2, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit VS 100, Tascam US-2000, UAD2 - Izotope, Fabfilter, NI Komplete 7/Kore2 & +, Spectrasonics+ http://www.maskensmobilestudio.com
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 11:07:42
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Next time around I'm going with a PCI-E card.
I've read that the FireFace USB stuff is really fast but that RME was very aggressive about the design and eliminated (I'm simplifying quite a bit here) a hidden safety buffer to achieve high speed... which made me wonder what happens when the hidden safety buffer isn't there any more?
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timidi
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 12:23:25
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I think of firewire and especially USB audio cards as the MP3s of audio cards wherein PCI/E cards are more the wavs if you catch my drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrift..
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jcschild
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 13:52:23
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Jim Roseberry
The key is making the right choice
If you make a good choice, you'll achieve excellent performance from USB 2.0, Firewire, or PCI/e.
ie: The Fireface UC's performance is right on par with the best PCI/e units. That said, don't expect most USB units to offer this level of performance. Most USB audio interfaces suffer from high round-trip latency... as do many Firewire audio interfaces.
USB - you have three good options that provide low round-trip latency:
- RME Fireface UC (soon you can add the UFX and Babyface)
- M-Audio FastTrack Ultra 8R
- M-Audio FastTrack Ultra
Firewire - stick with one of these options for low round-trip latency:
PCI/e - most of these units provide low round-trip latency... so you have many good choices:
Round-trip latency is the sum of the following:
- ASIO input buffer
- ASIO output buffer
- A/D and D/A coverter latency
- The driver's hidden safety buffer
Many typical USB and Firewire units use a large hidden safety-buffer to prevent glitches on playback.
That assures most users experience glitch-free playback (even under less than ideal circumstances)...
But that comes at the expense of high round-trip latency... and the bad part is that you usually have no control over the hidden safety buffer (so there's no means of adjusting/lowering it).
i agree with most of what Jim posted... a few comments UFX is available now.. i have 5 in stock :-) to firewire i would add M-Audio Profire (nothing else FW from them) Motu i would personally stay away from thier drivers are once again flaky in windows... Lynx aurora can have a firewire added to it but they are not cheap. if low latency is not a big deal then cakewalk vs 100/700 Focusrite sound great.. but really 256 buffer with a decent sized project is all you will get from those above.
Scott ADK Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
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jcschild
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 13:54:55
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mike_mccue
Next time around I'm going with a PCI-E card.
I've read that the FireFace USB stuff is really fast but that RME was very aggressive about the design and eliminated (I'm simplifying quite a bit here) a hidden safety buffer to achieve high speed... which made me wonder what happens when the hidden safety buffer isn't there any more?
i can assure you it works flawlessly... i was skeptical at first even being RME as most USB interfaces suck. UFX same thing..
Scott ADK Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
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jcschild
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 13:56:47
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timidi
I think of firewire and especially USB audio cards as the MP3s of audio cards wherein PCI/E cards are more the wavs if you catch my drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrift..
thats a tad silly... rme Fireface/UFX/UC MP3s? vs oh an audiophile 192 caddy vs bettle...
Scott ADK Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 16:47:29
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I read somewhere that Firewire allows for higher resolution recording over USB. Is that still true today. It's down to the exact choice you make... USB 2.0 has plenty of bandwidth for high-res. audio... (witness the new RME Fireface UFX) That said, few USB units offer excellent low round-trip latency performance (for the reason I mentioned above). RME's Fireface UC (UFX and Babyface will soon be available) and M-Audio's FastTrack Ultra 8R and FastTrack Ultra offer performance right on par with the best PCI/e units. Rather than focusing on the bus type, you need to be sure you choose a proven top performer. Make a good choice... and you won't care whether the unit is PCI/e, Firewire, or USB. ie: If you get a Fireface UC, you won't spend time/energy wishing it was a PCIe or Firewire unit. It offers the same features/performance as their Fireface 400 (which is a Firewire unit). Bottom line: Rock-solid drivers, good sound, low round-trip latency. That's as good as it gets...
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 17:07:04
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UFX is available now.. i have 5 in stock :-) Good timing on your part... You're one of the very few who has them in stock. First shipment went *fast* FWIW, My MOTU units are working pretty well under Win7x64. Streaming Internet audio can cause a little flurry of crackle... but that's about the only issue I've had. Opening/closing the MOTU audio console clears the crackle. Ultimately a UFX will replace the 896HD What gets me about the ProFire is that their cheaper USB 2.0 unit (Ultra 8R) provides lower round-trip latency. Not by a lot... but still...
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 17:15:30
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which made me wonder what happens when the hidden safety buffer isn't there any more? FWIW, RME also uses a safety buffer with their PCIe units... In all seriousness, just choose a good unit (one that's a proven solid perfomer)... and you won't give it a second thought. Anything RME makes is a good perfomer... (that dates back prior to the original Hammerfall series)
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 17:41:44
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Yes, What I was reading suggested that RME's USB devices and drivers have a very small safety buffer because they simply eliminated the use of it so as to achieve the fast turn around.
It seems as if the PCI-E systems can have both the safety buffer you mention and a faster round trip.
It also seems like I'd want to keep my usb hub free for doing more mundane things... like communicate with my mouse/tablet, midi keyboards, etc.
If the laptop situation ever gets better I look forward to a RME usb package... but I also want to end up with 24I/O on a PCI-E for my DAW.
best regards,
mike
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timidi
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 18:16:09
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thats a tad silly... jcschild
timidi
I think of firewire and especially USB audio cards as the MP3s of audio cards wherein PCI/E cards are more the wavs if you catch my drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrift..
thats a tad silly...
rme Fireface/UFX/UC MP3s? vs oh an audiophile 192
caddy vs bettle...
I guess it is silly. Just kind of the way my brain thinks of it as I have limited understanding of the technicalities of each protocol. Maybe you could answer me a question Scott. The thing I wonder about USB is that, say you have a USB midi interface, a USB drum controller and a USB sound card, are they all fighting for the same "USB pipe" ? Thanks.
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bvideo
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 19:01:03
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Each usb socket of a typical motherboard has dedicated resources to carry the full usb capacity. When an external hub is used, a single usb's resources are shared among all the hub's active sockets. For a midi interface or a drum controller, that would be no problem. For a disk and an audio interface, that could cause latency due to scheduling conflicts.
Bill B
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timidi
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/02 22:05:12
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jcschild
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/03 10:48:31
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bvideo
Each usb socket of a typical motherboard has dedicated resources to carry the full usb capacity. When an external hub is used, a single usb's resources are shared among all the hub's active sockets. For a midi interface or a drum controller, that would be no problem. For a disk and an audio interface, that could cause latency due to scheduling conflicts.
Bill B
actually this is NOT correct. especially on laptops. a good number of the usb ports share resources (esata for one) Timidi, the bigest concern is the USB interface. once you have a good port for that midi i/o usb kb are not bandwidth heavy... midi data is very small
Scott ADK Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
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jcschild
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/03 10:50:53
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Jim Roseberry
UFX is available now.. i have 5 in stock :-)
Good timing on your part...
You're one of the very few who has them in stock.
First shipment went *fast*
actually i was the very first to have them.. first shipment of them into the US i got 4 (1 was bad) Sourwater got 4 1 of theirs was bad.. next shipment i got 6... down to 3 left now.. 
Scott ADK Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
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bvideo
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/03 13:39:17
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Scott, it sounds like your reply to me is saying that the usb ports on such a laptop could not all run at best speed at the same time. Is that what you mean? Edit - or maybe you are saying there is an interconnect channel that doesn't have the capacity to run esata and all the USB's at once? Bill B
post edited by bvideo - 2010/12/03 17:46:00
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jcschild
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/06 09:20:19
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USB ports desktop or laptop, but particularly laptops have shared resources.
here is an example. when the Fireface UC first came out. the first thing we did was try it on a laptop of ours.
at first we seen pretty bad results. (like 1/2 as good as the FF 400/800)
then we tried in on a desktop. thats when we seen the claimed performance. and yes a hair better than firewire..
moving around the laptops ports would change performance but it was never as good as a desktop... (close)
so our first attempt was in a port that was heavily shared.
Scott ADK Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
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windsurfer25x
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/06 09:26:06
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What about on a Clevo d900F?
Sonar X1 Expanded PE 64 bit
Intel i7 2600k oc'd, 16Gb DDR3 RAM, intel 320 SSD OS drive, 7200RPM HDDx2, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit VS 100, Tascam US-2000, UAD2 - Izotope, Fabfilter, NI Komplete 7/Kore2 & +, Spectrasonics+ http://www.maskensmobilestudio.com
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SubSample
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/06 19:12:18
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I'd just like to add an PCI card to avoid at the moment.
Infrasonic Quartet by SIMS audio.
There seems to be an IRQ conflict as soon as you install any of the drivers that are available on their site with many systems which have more than just the sound card in one of the PCI slots despite moving the sound card to a different slot.
Fortunately the drivers which came with the card work with my system even thogh they are so old that they are not even on their website.
I have had to upload the driver for the community as it seems Infrasonic either do not have the version anymore or are not responding to customers complaints.
Ironically the person who asked for the drivers has not replied since downloading them even though I have asked the person to reply if successful.
Possibly an undercover infrasonic dev wanting the old driver for a new driver version that will work?
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jcschild
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/07 08:28:47
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windsurfer25x
What about on a Clevo d900F?
thats what we tried it on (UC) an updated bios and an updated UC now works better however still not as good as a desktop with an unshared port..
Scott ADK Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
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kab
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/14 13:51:26
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So if you were to use, for example, an RME Babyface on a laptop, and stream your sound library (softsynths) from an external eSATA drive, you'd run into issues due to port sharing?
Genuinely curious, as this is a route I'm considering going with my current laptop (Toshiba Qosmio, i7 processor, etc... 3 usb ports, 1 is shared with esata)
educational thread guys, thank you.
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jcschild
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/15 08:51:04
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you just have to keep moving things around... may work well may not.. laptops are a nightmare...
and its going to get worse in Jan.
Scott ADK Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
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Beagle
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/15 10:27:12
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jcschild
you just have to keep moving things around... may work well may not.. laptops are a nightmare...
and its going to get worse in Jan.
I'm sure you've probably already explained this in some other thread, but I've missed it. why will it get worse in Jan?
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algeraadrian
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Re:PCI, USB or Firewire. Which is Best for Sonar 8?
2010/12/16 11:26:05
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PCI is still the fastest, but I found a FireWire port to work well, too. I recently received a new Cakewalk Sonar Power Studio 660 points and it works great.
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