TomG
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/14 01:53:25
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Hi all FWIW, see my post here:- http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2076110 I went from a Layla 3G to the Fireface UC. A couple of points to note:- -> I originally went from a Delta 66 to the Layla 3G and the audio quality differnece was immedialty noticeable [ the FFUC is another jump again ] -> the Layla 3G also has a 32 Sample ASIO Buffer setting [ 0.7ms @ 44k ] which is rock-solid - serioulsy - their drivers are virtually crash-proof. -> at the 32 Sample ASIO Buffer setting [ 0.7ms @ 44k ] the Layla 3G gives a CEntrance real-world loop-back-RTL of 3.51ms <- thats not a missprint -> to the best of my knowledge, only the RME's, Lynx's and Echo PCI units can do this - and they all do it rock solid -> the FFUC has a 48 Sample ASIO Buffer setting [ 1.0ms @ 44k ] - plus it employs a small 32 Sample Safety Buffer only on the output stage - even with this, it delivers an astounding CEntrance real-world loop-back-RTL of 4.8ms <- again thats not a missprint and remeber, this is a USB unit - again, if its possible, this unit is even more rock-solid than the Layla 3G -> like some of the others, I too do everything virtual and ITB - amp sims, ezdrummer, all efx live-input monitored etc.... and I can assure you that moving from the 3.51ms RTL of the Layla 3G to the 4.8ms RTL of the FFUC is absolutly and completely undetectable and unnoticeable. So whats my point ? - if you can afford the Layla 3G and it has all the I/O you need think very seriously about it - I know its PCI but it is heaps better sounding than your AP and it will allow you to run at equal-worlds-lowest [ ~3.5ms RTL ] 32 ASIO Sample operation all day long - these are now selling 2nd hand on eBay for ~$270 which quite frankly, all jokes aside, is absurdly cheap for what you are getting - if you must go out of the box, the "ultra" units JimR is sugesting are the best balance of I/O flexibiltiy and good [~5.6ms RTL] latency [ listen to JimR - he knows what he's talking about !! ] - I'm only not suggesting the FFUC because of cost tomg
post edited by TomG - 2010/09/14 02:04:17
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rockreid
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RME Babyface and Beringer AD8000
2010/09/14 09:42:29
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the new RME Babyface USB achieves speedy PCIe- like performance according to RME techs on the RME Forum. They compare real testing vs their Fireface UC and PCIe interfaces on some of their postings. The Babyface debutes RME's new high-speed protocol that surpasses even the Fireface UC latencies. However the Babyface is only an analog 2-in/4-out, but includes ADAT lightpipe to connect an external convertor such as the acclaimed Beringher AD8000 which will give you 8in-out more channels for low $$$ cost. The RME Babyface is rumored to be released Nov 1 2010, but no guarantees. I have one on order already so I'll post a review upon my own testing.
home brew PC as follows: Windows 7 x64 bit Intel Q9550 cpu Gigabyte GA-X48-DQ6 MB Corsair 8GB DDR-2 1066 (PC2 8500) RAM RME UFX interface Sonar X1 64 bit Edirol PCR-800 controller Rapture BFD2 Jamstix3 Korg PadKontrol Guitar Rig 4 Pro mostly PSP and Voxengo VST plugs
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johnnyV
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/14 11:12:15
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Just a follow up on the Tascam us1641 RTL I downloaded that CEntrance utility.. Highly recommend to all who have never tried this. But be warned! it might bring bad news! http://centrance.com/downloads/ltu/ I have been recording with the Tascam set at Normal Latency So my 1st test came back as 36.7 ms!!!! WTF? Lowered it to low and got 25.44 ms Lowered it to lowest (which will crash if I use it) and still only 19.8 ms. Now we know why the unit is on sale! It has not caused a problem for me as I do all my live recording in the studio and then take stuff home to finish. I haven't used it for any MIDI as of yet. At home I have a M-Audio Fast track pro which I will test tonight... So Either these tests are not accurate or I guess I need more than a new computer but a whole new rig!! were does the money stop!! Anyhow once again kodu's to JimR the most valued player of the game once again.
post edited by johnnyV - 2010/09/14 11:21:04
Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional Scarlett 6i6Yamaha Gear= 01v - NSM 10 - DTX 400 - MG82cx Roland Gear= A 49- GR 50 - TR 505 - Boss pedalsTascam Gear= DR 40 - US1641 -Mackie Gear= Mix 8 - SRM 350's i5 Z97 3.2GHZ quad 16 Gig RAM W 8.1 home buildTaylor mini GS - G& L Tribute Tele - 72 Fender Princeton - TC BH 250 - Mooer and Outlaw Pedals Korg 05/RW
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johnnyV
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/14 11:19:40
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Just a quick question! If I upgrade to a W7 i7 quad with 6 Gigs of RAM will these tests come back highly improved???? ( please say yes,,) The test was done on a sad ol' Acer TM 4000 1.7 Mhz 2 Gigs RAM. My home rig is AMD 3800 dual 2.5 mhz 2 Gigs RAM.
Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional Scarlett 6i6Yamaha Gear= 01v - NSM 10 - DTX 400 - MG82cx Roland Gear= A 49- GR 50 - TR 505 - Boss pedalsTascam Gear= DR 40 - US1641 -Mackie Gear= Mix 8 - SRM 350's i5 Z97 3.2GHZ quad 16 Gig RAM W 8.1 home buildTaylor mini GS - G& L Tribute Tele - 72 Fender Princeton - TC BH 250 - Mooer and Outlaw Pedals Korg 05/RW
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Shane_B.
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/14 11:36:09
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Jim Roseberry Can't complain about that at all. No... that's not bad at all Since the driver uses a small hidden safety buffer, you're RTL at any ASIO buffer size will be good. I went home last night and tried the High Performance mode on my FTU. Crashed my system and couldn't get any sound back even when I turned it back off and rebooted. I ended up doing a restore from an image. LOL! No big deal, I have my system set up pretty slick so it only takes 15 minutes to restore. I have my system set up so no project is ever kept on my boot drive so if I ever have a boot drive crash, I'm ok. I was mistaken about my latency. I'm actually getting 4.5ms with my FTU set at 128 samples/96k. I'm getting 10ms with it set to 44.1. Honestly, I couldn't tell a difference. I'm happy with that so I'm not going to even attempt to figure out why High Performance mode would fry my system. :) Shane
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/14 14:57:38
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was mistaken about my latency. I'm actually getting 4.5ms with my FTU set at 128 samples/96k. I'm getting 10ms with it set to 44.1. Honestly, I couldn't tell a difference. I'm happy with that so I'm not going to even attempt to figure out why High Performance mode would fry my system. :) Hi Shane, The problem with high-performance mode is usually due to a conflict with a high-performance video card.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/14 15:01:23
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Just a quick question! If I upgrade to a W7 i7 quad with 6 Gigs of RAM will these tests come back highly improved???? ( please say yes,,) Other than the ability to sustain the load... your computer will have absolutely no bearing on round-trip latency. So unfortunately... upgrading the PC hardware won't lower RTL. Purely down to the audio interface and its driver...
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:RME Babyface and Beringer AD8000
2010/09/14 15:03:17
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The RME Babyface is rumored to be released Nov 1 2010, but no guarantees. I have one on order already so I'll post a review upon my own testing. That's going to be a popular unit...
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johnnyV
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Re:RME Babyface and Beringer AD8000
2010/09/14 15:17:53
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JV Just a quick question! If I upgrade to a W7 i7 quad with 6 Gigs of RAM will these tests come back highly improved???? ( please say yes,,) JR Other than the ability to sustain the load... your computer will have absolutely no bearing on round-trip latency. So unfortunately... upgrading the PC hardware won't lower RTL. Purely down to the audio interface and its driver... OK so but ya, what about 64 bit OS?? will that speed this up ? USB ?? I'm going to start a post in hardware and see what other Tascam us1641 users are getting
Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional Scarlett 6i6Yamaha Gear= 01v - NSM 10 - DTX 400 - MG82cx Roland Gear= A 49- GR 50 - TR 505 - Boss pedalsTascam Gear= DR 40 - US1641 -Mackie Gear= Mix 8 - SRM 350's i5 Z97 3.2GHZ quad 16 Gig RAM W 8.1 home buildTaylor mini GS - G& L Tribute Tele - 72 Fender Princeton - TC BH 250 - Mooer and Outlaw Pedals Korg 05/RW
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:RME Babyface and Beringer AD8000
2010/09/14 15:58:05
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OK so but ya, what about 64 bit OS?? will that speed this up ? USB ?? I'm going to start a post in hardware and see what other Tascam us1641 users are getting No... If there is any difference, it's due to the x64 driver vs. the x86 (32Bit) driver. FWIW, There is no variation in the results. As long as you ran the test properly... the results won't change from machine to machine. Look at the components that make up round-trip latency: - ASIO output buffer
- ASIO input buffer
- D/A and A/D converters
- The driver's hidden safety buffer
Your machine has no influence/affect on the above... RTL is down to the audio interface and its driver. This is why I harp (endlessly I know ![](http://forum.cakewalk.com/upfiles/smiley/s4.gif) ) on this subject.
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dr.hash
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/14 19:34:01
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Jim Roseberry Try and get somthing with 118 db of dynamic range or higher.
As a point of reference: Gear with greater than 117dB dynamic range is getting into world-class territory. To get greater than 118dB of dynamic range in an audio interface (a true measureable figure - not bogus), the OP would have to spend $1700+. The Fireface 400 and UC don't even achieve that... (they're at about 114dB dynamic range) Yea you are right, I was looking at the Presonus stuff and the Firestudio project had 114 db of dynamic range and the Studio Live desk had a dynamic range of 118. I am a little pissed because I had a Presonus Firestudio project and I got rid of it because of compatibility issues and now even though I recommend it have I have converters that are only just reaching over 101 db of dynamic range. OPPS but i can work around this with by using a few tricks. Watch out; by the way does anyone know what the dynamic range of the unit we are talking about??? Finally I have forgotten the guy's moniker plastic does not equal good!!!! “In Search Of The Lost Digital Chord” Down with the false Gods. (Audio Schools) Viva la Revolution Sonar Forever, Pro Tools Never Ben B.C.T (Bachelor of Creative Technology) http://www.myspace.com/audiomystics
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yorolpal
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/14 19:46:09
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I think you left out an exclamation point there, CornedBeef.
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mixmkr
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/14 21:26:10
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How long will motherboards be sporting PCI slots... and or... dumb question??? .. is there a PCIe to PCI converter? I use Echo 3G Layla and I have no complaints with sound quality. I wish Echo would 'upgrade' to PCIe... or have they?
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dr.hash
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/15 02:56:02
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mixmkr How long will motherboards be sporting PCI slots... and or... dumb question??? .. is there a PCIe to PCI converter? I use Echo 3G Layla and I have no complaints with sound quality. I wish Echo would 'upgrade' to PCIe... or have they? This is the great conundrum isn't it I had three PCI Creamware cards and from my reckoning there are not to many motherboards with three PCI slots left in fact when I started to research this I found one or two. I did this research to upgrade my computer then I found out that the cards because I could not get a motherboard with three PCI slots were obsolete and then came to the conclusion that desktops were obsolete, yea UAD laptop cards. Perhaps yorolpal i have jumped ship too soon and my comments were a little hasty but I am a firm believer that desktops are dead. This is the reason for my comments yorolpal. The rest of the motherboards i investigated had at least one some had two but none of the high quality motherboards the ASUS deluxe stuff (I use to love these motherboards) had more than one and maybe two. “In Search Of The Lost Digital Chord” Down with the false Gods. (Audio Schools) Viva la Revolution Sonar Forever, Pro Tools Never Ben B.C.T (Bachelor of Creative Technology) http://www.myspace.com/audiomystics
post edited by dr.hash - 2010/09/15 03:08:47
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Sijel
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/15 09:59:41
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I went home last night and tried the High Performance mode on my FTU. Crashed my system and couldn't get any sound back even when I turned it back off and rebooted. I ended up doing a restore from an image. That's what I mentioned in my post. I needed to do an uninstall/reinstall of the M-Audio drivers. It wasn't a big deal, they install in under a minute on the Alien. I think Jim may be right about potential video card conflicts. I tried the FTU on another machine and it could run Hi-P mode. But that machine's graphics redraw is slow and burdens the CPU - so I don't use it. The great news is (as Jim highlighted): the FTU gives INCREDIBLE RTL even without Hi-P mode on. I highly recommend it as a PCI-card alternative/replacement.
Microsoft Surface Book w/ Surface dock, dual 24-inch HD displays, Sonar Platinum, THD 4, GuitarRig, Amplitube, (Kontakt4), Garritan PO, Trillian Bass 1.3, Roland Octa-Capture, Waves Gold & various Waves, PSP and T-Racks plugins.KRK Rokit6, Lefty Guitars & Bass, racks/pedals galore and many other fun things.
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Sijel
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/15 10:03:03
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My Alien had zero PCI slots available.
Microsoft Surface Book w/ Surface dock, dual 24-inch HD displays, Sonar Platinum, THD 4, GuitarRig, Amplitube, (Kontakt4), Garritan PO, Trillian Bass 1.3, Roland Octa-Capture, Waves Gold & various Waves, PSP and T-Racks plugins.KRK Rokit6, Lefty Guitars & Bass, racks/pedals galore and many other fun things.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/15 10:42:12
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but I am a firm believer that desktops are dead You're about 50 years too early on that one...
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tarsier
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/15 10:59:50
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is there a PCIe to PCI converter? Yes, such things exist. I think Startech has some. Google it.
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Shane_B.
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/15 17:06:43
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Jim Roseberry was mistaken about my latency. I'm actually getting 4.5ms with my FTU set at 128 samples/96k. I'm getting 10ms with it set to 44.1. Honestly, I couldn't tell a difference. I'm happy with that so I'm not going to even attempt to figure out why High Performance mode would fry my system. :) Hi Shane, The problem with high-performance mode is usually due to a conflict with a high-performance video card. That's what I get for buying a Galaxy video card. :) btw ... I bet your PM inbox is always full isn't it? :)
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Shane_B.
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/15 17:12:25
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Sijel My Alien had zero PCI slots available. My Gigabyte mobo has 1 PCI slot (EDIT: Correction, it has 2 PCI slots). I got it so I could use my PCI EMU 0404 or the USB FTU, ended up not being able to use it because it takes over my system and the FTU is unusable when the EMU 0404 is installed. *sIgH* I f*c*ing hate computers. LOL
post edited by Shane_B. - 2010/09/15 17:23:49
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Shane_B.
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Re:RME Babyface and Beringer AD8000
2010/09/15 17:19:58
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Jim Roseberry OK so but ya, what about 64 bit OS?? will that speed this up ? USB ?? I'm going to start a post in hardware and see what other Tascam us1641 users are getting No... If there is any difference, it's due to the x64 driver vs. the x86 (32Bit) driver. FWIW, There is no variation in the results. As long as you ran the test properly... the results won't change from machine to machine. Look at the components that make up round-trip latency: - ASIO output buffer
- ASIO input buffer
- D/A and A/D converters
- The driver's hidden safety buffer
Your machine has no influence/affect on the above... RTL is down to the audio interface and its driver. This is why I harp (endlessly I know ) on this subject. So, what you're telling me is, if I could have somehow used a 64 bit driver on my P4 XP 32 bit DAW that never had a single crash and I loved with all my heart, I could have taken care of my latency problems? Damn it Jim! I'm a musician not a technician! ROFL! :)
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stratman70
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/16 21:44:01
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After much searching I have narrowed things down to 2 options and the best prices I have found: M Audio fast track Ultra (not 8R) $305 shipped. Layla 3G $402 shipped. Any help in making up my mind is greatly appreciated (needed :-) ) Thanks Frank
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yorolpal
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/16 21:50:19
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I have the MAudio FTU and paid more than that...and so far no problems whatsoever. Lovin it. 64bit Sonar and Windows 7 64 bit.
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johnnyV
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/16 21:50:29
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Layla was a cool song, I'd go with that ( and the price) you'll be buying a new one in a year anyhow when we go USB 4.5
Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional Scarlett 6i6Yamaha Gear= 01v - NSM 10 - DTX 400 - MG82cx Roland Gear= A 49- GR 50 - TR 505 - Boss pedalsTascam Gear= DR 40 - US1641 -Mackie Gear= Mix 8 - SRM 350's i5 Z97 3.2GHZ quad 16 Gig RAM W 8.1 home buildTaylor mini GS - G& L Tribute Tele - 72 Fender Princeton - TC BH 250 - Mooer and Outlaw Pedals Korg 05/RW
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Robert H
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/16 22:01:30
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stratman70
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/16 22:59:43
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Shane_B.
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/17 16:54:50
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stratman70 After much searching I have narrowed things down to 2 options and the best prices I have found: M Audio fast track Ultra (not 8R) $305 shipped. Layla 3G $402 shipped. Any help in making up my mind is greatly appreciated (needed :-) ) Thanks Frank Got mine on sale at Guitar Center for $249.00. Got my Yamaha HS-80m's for $249 each, they are normally $499 each ... that's basically buy one, get one free! Guitar Center has some great deals if you keep watching them. The HS-80's were an un-advertised special. Wish I would have bought more of them. The only thing I can tell you about the FTU is, in 32 bit mode I never had a single crash ... EVER. In 64 bit mode, I do get blue screens saying it was my maudio driver, but it doesn't happen very often.
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stratman70
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/19 11:05:04
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Hmm-The dynamic range (if accurate) on ther FTU is the same as my AP2496-103db. The layla 3G is 114db-wow-quite a difference if accurate. I was all set on the FTU, then I see this? any thoughts on the dynamic range? Thanks Frank
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yorolpal
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/19 12:51:28
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I really don't think you'll notice any difference. YMMV.
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stratman70
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/19 13:17:17
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Yoro-do you mean bwtween the layla and FTU or between my ap2496 and the FTU? I was really hoping I was taking a step up in sound quality, not sideways. Thanks
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