Hi all

FWIW, see my post here:- http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2076110

I went from a Layla 3G to the Fireface UC.

A couple of points to note:-

-> I originally went from a Delta 66 to the Layla 3G and the audio quality differnece was immedialty noticeable [ the FFUC is another jump again ]

-> the Layla 3G also has a 32 Sample ASIO Buffer setting  [ 0.7ms @ 44k ]  which is rock-solid - serioulsy - their drivers are virtually crash-proof.

-> at the 32 Sample ASIO Buffer setting  [ 0.7ms @ 44k ]  the Layla 3G  gives a CEntrance real-world loop-back-RTL of 3.51ms <- thats not a missprint

-> to the best of my knowledge, only the RME's, Lynx's and  Echo PCI units can do this - and they all do it rock solid

-> the FFUC  has a 48 Sample ASIO Buffer setting  [ 1.0ms @ 44k ]  -  plus it employs a small 32 Sample Safety Buffer only on the output stage - even with this, it delivers an astounding CEntrance real-world loop-back-RTL of 4.8ms <- again thats not a missprint and remeber, this is a USB unit - again, if its possible,  this unit is even more rock-solid than the Layla 3G

-> like some of the others, I too do everything virtual and ITB - amp sims, ezdrummer, all efx live-input monitored etc.... and I can assure you that moving from the  3.51ms RTL of the Layla 3G to the 4.8ms RTL of the FFUC is absolutly and completely undetectable and unnoticeable.

So whats my point ?

- if you can afford the Layla 3G and it has all the I/O you need  think very seriously about it - I know its PCI but it is heaps better sounding than your AP   and it will allow you to run at  equal-worlds-lowest  [ ~3.5ms RTL ]  32 ASIO Sample operation all day long - these are now selling  2nd hand on eBay for  ~$270  which quite frankly, all jokes aside, is absurdly cheap for what you are getting

- if you must go out of the box, the  "ultra" units JimR is sugesting are the best balance of  I/O flexibiltiy and good  [~5.6ms RTL]  latency  [ listen to JimR - he knows what he's talking about !! ]

- I'm only not suggesting the FFUC because of cost

tomg

Just a follow up on the Tascam us1641 RTL
I downloaded that CEntrance utility.. Highly recommend to all who have never tried this. But be warned! it might bring bad news!
http://centrance.com/downloads/ltu/  

I have been recording with the Tascam set at Normal Latency
  So my 1st test came back as  36.7 ms!!!! WTF?
Lowered it to low and got 25.44 ms
Lowered it to lowest (which will crash if I use it) and still only 19.8 ms. Now we know why the unit is on sale!
It has not caused a problem for me as I do all my live recording in the studio and then take stuff home to finish. I haven't used it for any MIDI as of yet. At home I have a M-Audio Fast track pro which I will test tonight... So
Either these tests are not accurate or I guess I need more than a new computer but a whole new rig!! were does the money stop!!

Anyhow once again kodu's to JimR the most valued player of the game once again.

Jim Roseberry

Can't complain about that at all.

 
No... that's not bad at all
Since the driver uses a small hidden safety buffer, you're RTL at any ASIO buffer size will be good.

I went home last night and tried the High Performance mode on my FTU. Crashed my system and couldn't get any sound back even when I turned it back off and rebooted. I ended up doing a restore from an image. LOL! No big deal, I have my system set up pretty slick so it only takes 15 minutes to restore. I have my system set up so no project is ever kept on my boot drive so if I ever have a boot drive crash, I'm ok.

I was mistaken about my latency. I'm actually getting 4.5ms with my FTU set at 128 samples/96k. I'm getting 10ms with it set to 44.1. Honestly, I couldn't tell a difference. I'm happy with that so I'm not going to even attempt to figure out why High Performance mode would fry my system. :)

Shane

Just a quick question! If I upgrade to a W7 i7 quad with 6 Gigs of RAM will these tests come back highly improved???? ( please say yes,,)

 
Other than the ability to sustain the load... your computer will have absolutely no bearing on round-trip latency.
So unfortunately... upgrading the PC hardware won't lower RTL.  Purely down to the audio interface and its driver...

JV
Just a quick question! If I upgrade to a W7 i7 quad with 6 Gigs of RAM will these tests come back highly improved???? ( please say yes,,)
  JR
Other than the ability to sustain the load... your computer will have absolutely no bearing on round-trip latency.
So unfortunately... upgrading the PC hardware won't lower RTL.  Purely down to the audio interface and its driver...

OK so but ya, what about 64 bit OS?? will that speed this up ?

USB ?? I'm going to start a post in hardware and see what other Tascam us1641 users are getting

Jim Roseberry

Try and get somthing with 118 db of dynamic range or higher.

 
As a point of reference:
Gear with greater than 117dB dynamic range is getting into world-class territory.
To get greater than 118dB of dynamic range in an audio interface (a true measureable figure - not bogus), the OP would have to spend $1700+.  The Fireface 400 and UC don't even achieve that... (they're at about 114dB dynamic range)

 
Yea you are right, I was looking at the Presonus stuff and the Firestudio project had 114 db of dynamic range and the Studio Live desk had a dynamic range of 118.  I am a little pissed because I had a Presonus Firestudio project and I got rid of it because of compatibility issues and now even though I recommend it have I have converters that are only just reaching over 101 db of dynamic range.  OPPS but i can work around this with by using a few tricks.
 
Watch out; by the way does anyone know what the dynamic range of the unit we are talking about???
 
Finally I have forgotten the guy's moniker plastic does not equal good!!!!
 
“In Search Of The Lost Digital Chord”
Down with the false Gods. (Audio Schools)
Viva la Revolution
Sonar Forever, Pro Tools Never
Ben B.C.T (Bachelor of Creative Technology)
http://www.myspace.com/audiomystics

 

How long will motherboards be sporting PCI slots...

and or... dumb question??? .. is there a PCIe to PCI converter?

I use Echo 3G Layla and I have no complaints with sound quality.  I wish Echo would 'upgrade' to PCIe...  or have they?

I went home last night and tried the High Performance mode on my FTU. Crashed my system and couldn't get any sound back even when I turned it back off and rebooted. I ended up doing a restore from an image.

That's what I mentioned in my post.  I needed to do an uninstall/reinstall of the M-Audio drivers.
It wasn't a big deal, they install in under a minute on the Alien.
 
I think Jim may be right about potential video card conflicts.  I tried the FTU on another machine and it could run Hi-P mode.  But that machine's graphics redraw is slow and burdens the CPU - so I don't use it.
The great news is (as Jim highlighted): the FTU gives INCREDIBLE RTL even without Hi-P mode on.
I highly recommend it as a PCI-card alternative/replacement.

but I am a firm believer that desktops are dead

 
You're about 50 years too early on that one...
 

Jim Roseberry

was mistaken about my latency. I'm actually getting 4.5ms with my FTU set at 128 samples/96k. I'm getting 10ms with it set to 44.1. Honestly, I couldn't tell a difference. I'm happy with that so I'm not going to even attempt to figure out why High Performance mode would fry my system. :)

 
Hi Shane,
 
The problem with high-performance mode is usually due to a conflict with a high-performance video card.

That's what I get for buying a Galaxy video card. :)

btw ... I bet your PM inbox is always full isn't it? :)

Jim Roseberry

OK so but ya, what about 64 bit OS?? will that speed this up ? USB ?? I'm going to start a post in hardware and see what other Tascam us1641 users are getting

No...
If there is any difference, it's due to the x64 driver vs. the x86 (32Bit) driver.

FWIW, There is no variation in the results.
As long as you ran the test properly... the results won't change from machine to machine.

Look at the components that make up round-trip latency:

• ASIO output buffer
• ASIO input buffer
• D/A and A/D converters
• The driver's hidden safety buffer

Your machine has no influence/affect on the above...
RTL is down to the audio interface and its driver.
This is why I harp (endlessly I know ) on this subject.

So, what you're telling me is, if I could have somehow used a 64 bit driver on my P4 XP 32 bit DAW that never had a single crash and I loved with all my heart, I could have taken care of my latency problems?

Damn it Jim! I'm a musician not a technician! ROFL!

:)

I have the MAudio FTU and paid more than that...and so far no problems whatsoever.  Lovin it. 64bit Sonar and Windows 7 64 bit.

Frank,

If you go with the Fast Track Ultra you can get it here for $279.00 shipped.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532252-REG/M_Audio_9900_52729_00_Fast_Track_Ultra_.html

I just ordered mine. : )

stratman70


After much searching I have narrowed things down to 2 options and the best prices I have found:
 
M Audio fast track Ultra (not 8R) $305 shipped.
 
Layla 3G $402 shipped.
 
Any help in making up my mind is greatly appreciated (needed :-) )
Thanks
Frank

Got mine on sale at Guitar Center for $249.00. Got my Yamaha HS-80m's for $249 each, they are normally $499 each ... that's basically buy one, get one free! Guitar Center has some great deals if you keep watching them. The HS-80's were an un-advertised special. Wish I would have bought more of them.

The only thing I can tell you about the FTU is, in 32 bit mode I never had a single crash ... EVER. In 64 bit mode, I do get blue screens saying it was my maudio driver, but it doesn't happen very often.

I really don't think you'll notice any difference.  YMMV.