stratman70
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PCI interface going to USB Help Please
Hi
well, I have tried everything, but I just need at least 6 inputs for recording. I have been using the AP2496 for ions now. I only recvord guitars and vocals-everything else is midi. The only thing in my range with that many inputs (PCI) is the M Audio1010 or the 1010LT. I was thinking of just going to the CW USB or the maudio USB, the ones with 8 ins and outs.
Here is my question: I have enjoyed "Zero" latency when recording my guitars or vocals. I do use a mackie mixer into PC. If I go to USB will now be entering the world of annoying latency? I still would use the mackie 1203vlz3 (or maybe just to monitor-never had all the options that come with the 2 USB AI I mentioned. Or just get the 1010LT cheap way out (<$200)?
Thanks
Frank
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Guitarman1
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/12 13:58:02
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personally I would stick with the pci cards. I use the delta 44 which as 4 ins and 4 outs.. and have no trouble at all.
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slartabartfast
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/12 14:16:04
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Well true zero latency implies that the signal is not going into the computer and back out before you hear it. That is typically achieved by tapping into an audio line at the input and routing it to your phones or monitors somehow. That can be done with a mixer, and is built in to many digital audio interfaces. In that circumstance the USB vs PCI connection to the computer is irrelevant. So long as you are not adding in the box effects or processing to your input before you play it, the latency added by the USB bus itself will likely not be noticeable. PCI is faster than USB, but typically problematic latency is an order of magnitude greater than that speed difference.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/12 15:07:12
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I was thinking of just going to the CW USB or the maudio USB, the ones with 8 ins and outs. If you go USB, I'd stick with either the RME Fireface UC... or the FastTrack Ultra/8R. Both of these units provide low round-trip latency on par with the best PCI/e audio interfaces. The Fireface UC yields 5.6ms total round-trip latency at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k. The Fireface UC also provides a 48-sample ASIO buffer size. The Fireface UC yields 4.8ms total round-trip latency at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k The FastTrack Ultra/8R yields 5.5ms total round-trip latency at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k As a point of reference, the best PCI/e units yield 5ms total round-trip latency at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k All other USB audio interfaces have higher round-trip latency. Some have literally double the round-trip latency of the units mentioned above... (depends on the size of the driver's hidden safety buffer)
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dr.hash 
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/12 18:43:39
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I'm using a Lexicon IOnix US42 this is a 4 in box but I have been using it with Guitar Rig 4 and I have felt no discernible latency. There is an 8 in box. The only caveat is only two outs but I have figured a work around by buying a Behringer Ultra Patch Pro and hooking that to my spdif ports so I now have two stereo outs and the ability to patch compressors and the like into the signal path. I have to disagree with guitar man M-Audio 1010's and Delta 44-66 are over 10 years old and a guy on this forum was complaining about them the other day. Plus you will never get zero latency running a PCI card. So if you wanted to play the Guitar Rig it would not be at zero latency and as I say I can feel no latency when I play that baby. Finally stay clear if you can of all M-Audio, the build quality is crap all their 4 in boxes are plastic, and I find their preamps to have too much in the mid range. The Lexicon is built of metal and has great metering, it does not have an off switch which is a bit of problem having to pull the cable out every time you want to turn it off and I really haven't tried the preamps that much. Finally there is a Motu unit that is hybrid, it will run off USB and Firewire, stay clear of Firewire, some people have no problems with it, some do. I’m not being conceited or arrogant, I just want to give away the formula for turning lead into gold. Down with the false Gods. (Audio Schools) Viva la Revolution Sonar Forever, Pro Tools Never Ben B.C.T (Bachelor of Creative Technology) http://www.myspace.com/audiomystics
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yorolpal
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/12 18:50:06
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+1 for the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra.
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wormser
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/12 19:27:36
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Stick with PCI.
RME or MAudio.
Both are rock solid wrt latency.
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johnnyV
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/12 19:38:52
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PCI--- is that like a floppy drive ? Do they even have that in now? The Tascam us1641 is under $300 has 16 ins 4 outs. The pre amps are good. Not sure about round trip latency but I have not had any problems "hearing" any delays while tracking both MIDI and live bands and overdubs. This thread was started a few years back and was brought back a few weeks ago, you'll see that all who have used this interface are pleased with it. Only guy who had trouble would have had trouble starting his car! http://forum.cakewalk.com...?m=1222650
post edited by johnnyV - 2010/09/12 19:43:56
Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional Scarlett 6i6Yamaha Gear= 01v - NSM 10 - DTX 400 - MG82cx Roland Gear= A 49- GR 50 - TR 505 - Boss pedalsTascam Gear= DR 40 - US1641 -Mackie Gear= Mix 8 - SRM 350's i5 Z97 3.2GHZ quad 16 Gig RAM W 8.1 home buildTaylor mini GS - G& L Tribute Tele - 72 Fender Princeton - TC BH 250 - Mooer and Outlaw Pedals Korg 05/RW
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 00:46:45
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If you want the tightest possible timing when playing/monitoring in realtime thru software, you need the total round-trip latency as low as possible. In this type of scenario, 8-12ms total round-trip latency isn't particularly good. A player/perfomer sensitive to timing will definitely start to feel lag if the RTL gets above about 6ms. Mentioning that you don't hear latency when monitoring via hardware... well... of course.... you're not dealing with RTL when monitoring via hardware.  I don't experience heartburn from pizza... if I avoid pepperoni.  Even if you don't think this is a priority today, it's wise to invest in an audio interface that provides low RTL. In the future, should you ever want the ability to effectively play/monitor in realtime thru software EFX/processing, there's nothing you can do to mitigate the problem (if your audio interface uses a large hidden safety buffer)... other than doubling the sample-rate (which will hit your CPU hard). If your audio interface provides low RTL, you always have the capability to effectively monitor thru software. AmpSim plugins are an obvious example: With the latest generation of AmpSim plugins sounding pretty good (and getting better each revision), it's pretty convenient to be able to plug in your favorite electic guitar/bass and be able to work (silently and effectively) late at night... or other times when mic'ing an amp might be impractical/inconvenient/impossible. As a test, play thru your favorite AmpSim plugin at 5.5ms total round-trip latency. Then, have a go at playing thru your favorite AmpSim with 10-12ms total round-trip latency. Report back with which feels more comfortable... The latest generation of native reverb plugins (like the new LX-480 or Lexicon's own PCM collection) is also reason to want low RTL capabilities. As time goes on, there will be more and more compelling reasons... If I was looking to upgrade from a PCI audio interface, I wouldn't want to take a step backwards feature-wise. Yes, the Delta units are a little long in the tooth... but they still sound pretty good, provide low round-trip latency, and have solid drivers. In my eyes, slightly better fidelity at the expensive of higher RTL is a lateral move.
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stratman70
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 08:36:03
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I am going to look into the Fast Track Ultra 8R-depending on $$ I may have to go with the Fast Track Ultra. Guess it won't do what you say but I can only buy within my means
Thanks for your help-It's greatly appreciated.
Frank
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 13:16:50
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I may have to go with the Fast Track Ultra. The Ultra has the same performance... Just make sure to get one of the "Ultra" units... as these are the models with the low round-trip latency. Having low RTL doesn't necessarily cost any more...
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Shane_B.
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 14:50:30
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Jim Roseberry
I was thinking of just going to the CW USB or the maudio USB, the ones with 8 ins and outs.
If you go USB, I'd stick with either the RME Fireface UC... or the FastTrack Ultra/8R.
Both of these units provide low round-trip latency on par with the best PCI/e audio interfaces.
The Fireface UC yields 5.6ms total round-trip latency at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k.
The Fireface UC also provides a 48-sample ASIO buffer size.
The Fireface UC yields 4.8ms total round-trip latency at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k
The FastTrack Ultra/8R yields 5.5ms total round-trip latency at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k
As a point of reference, the best PCI/e units yield 5ms total round-trip latency at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k
All other USB audio interfaces have higher round-trip latency.
Some have literally double the round-trip latency of the units mentioned above... (depends on the size of the driver's hidden safety buffer)
Hi Jim, I have a Fast Track Ultra. You said above it yeilds 5.5ms TRT @ 64-Samples ASIO when set to 44.1. Mine only goes down to 128 so I'm a little confused. Are you sure about the 64-sample setting or am I not looking in the right place? I change this setting via the M-Audio control panel by double clicking the M-Audio icon in the quick launch bar. I can only go down to 128 samples using the 32 bit and the 64 bit driver. Thanks, Shane
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Shane_B.
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 14:59:36
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stratman70
I am going to look into the Fast Track Ultra 8R-depending on $$ I may have to go with the Fast Track Ultra. Guess it won't do what you say but I can only buy within my means
Thanks for your help-It's greatly appreciated.
Frank
Hi Frank, I see in your sig that you are running 64-bit. Just an FYI ... I'm running 64 bit and I have had some issues with the Fast Track Ultra ... while others have had none. That being said, I ran it on a 32 bit system and had zero problems. Just thought I'd throw that in there to help with your decision making. I really like working with the Fast Track Ultra. Oh another thing ... if you go with it, don't rely on the built in record latency adjustment, do a manual one. I made a custom CWB just for doing the record latency adjustment on the Fast Track Ultra. I set all the routing and simplified the process so it can be done with a few simple clicks and drags without counting the samples manually. PM me if you would like me to send it to you. Good Luck. Shane
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 15:13:03
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have a Fast Track Ultra. You said above it yeilds 5.5ms TRT @ 64-Samples ASIO when set to 44.1. Mine only goes down to 128 so I'm a little confused. Are you sure about the 64-sample setting or am I not looking in the right place? I change this setting via the M-Audio control panel by double clicking the M-Audio icon in the quick launch bar. I can only go down to 128 samples using the 32 bit and the 64 bit driver. Hi Shane, Go into the M-Audio Control Panel and put the unit in High Performance mode. Power down the unit... and power it back up. You should now be able to choose the 64-sample ASIO buffer size.
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Shane_B.
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 15:24:17
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Jim Roseberry
have a Fast Track Ultra. You said above it yeilds 5.5ms TRT @ 64-Samples ASIO when set to 44.1. Mine only goes down to 128 so I'm a little confused. Are you sure about the 64-sample setting or am I not looking in the right place? I change this setting via the M-Audio control panel by double clicking the M-Audio icon in the quick launch bar. I can only go down to 128 samples using the 32 bit and the 64 bit driver.
Hi Shane,
Go into the M-Audio Control Panel and put the unit in High Performance mode.
Power down the unit... and power it back up.
You should now be able to choose the 64-sample ASIO buffer size.
A-ha! I'll try that when I get home. At 128 samples I'm very happy with my current latency. I'm getting 6ms @ 128samples @96k. Can't complain about that at all. Thanks! Shane
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 15:47:33
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Can't complain about that at all. No... that's not bad at all Since the driver uses a small hidden safety buffer, you're RTL at any ASIO buffer size will be good.
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wintaper
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 16:02:14
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FYI, the latest RME PCI/PCIE cards go down to 32 samples - 0.7ms @ 44.1k/24b.
I'm doing exactly what jim described - using amp sims and slate drums realtime for a fully virtual live session driven by sonar. its awesome and you can't be the peace and quiet!
Intel i7 @ 3.60GHz, 12GB DDR3 1600MHz, Win7 / OSX 10.6.6, Sonar 8.53 / Pro Tools 9.0.1, RME RayDAT, UAD2-Quad, Focusrite OctoPre (x4), Euphonix MC Mix, Tascam US2400, Monette Ajna (x2), 15' Macbook Pro
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johnnyV
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 16:16:12
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Jim- Anyone? I was trying to find out what the RTL of the Tascam us1641 would be. Is there a web site were someone bench tested these units? I looked in the manual, I Googled it etc. Can't find the spec for this. Thanks..
Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional Scarlett 6i6Yamaha Gear= 01v - NSM 10 - DTX 400 - MG82cx Roland Gear= A 49- GR 50 - TR 505 - Boss pedalsTascam Gear= DR 40 - US1641 -Mackie Gear= Mix 8 - SRM 350's i5 Z97 3.2GHZ quad 16 Gig RAM W 8.1 home buildTaylor mini GS - G& L Tribute Tele - 72 Fender Princeton - TC BH 250 - Mooer and Outlaw Pedals Korg 05/RW
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Sijel
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 16:27:19
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Go into the M-Audio Control Panel and put the unit in High Performance mode.
CAREFUL when you do try this... I've found the Ultra works EXCELLENTLY on my Alien without this. And when I have gotten greedy and tried "High Performance" mode, stability issues have crept in. Unfortunately, the only way I've found to then undo HiPerf mode is to uninstall/re-install the Ultra (since the control panel won't let me uncheck this mode once I turn it on  ). This issue aside - I totally agree with your recommendation for the M-Audio Fast Track Pro ULTRA. I get very low RTL even without Hi-perf mode. AmpSim's work fine and I don't "feel" a difference in almost all my guitars. (I was a Delta 66 user before I bought the Alienware - which doesn't have a PCI slot - only PCIe's. So, I needed to change interfaces and I landed on the Ultra.) One other thought: there IS that NEW Cakewalk interface available very soon!
post edited by Sijel - 2010/09/13 16:58:59
Microsoft Surface Book w/ Surface dock, dual 24-inch HD displays,
Sonar Platinum, THD 4, GuitarRig, Amplitube, (Kontakt4), Garritan PO, Trillian Bass 1.3, Roland Octa-Capture, Waves Gold & various Waves, PSP and T-Racks plugins.KRK Rokit6, Lefty Guitars & Bass, racks/pedals galore and many other fun things.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 16:52:11
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Jim- Anyone? I was trying to find out what the RTL of the Tascam us1641 would be. Is there a web site were someone bench tested these units? I looked in the manual, I Googled it etc. Can't find the spec for this. Thanks.. Hi Johnny, You have to measure the RTL using an analog "loop-back" test. You won't see any manufacturer tout RTL as a feature/spec. Not even the better units... 5ms RTL would be easily confused (and is - typically by inexperienced users) with the 1.5ms latency reported in specs (which is only the ASIO output buffer - which doesn't account for ASIO input buffer, A/D D/A converter latency, and the latency of the driver's hidden safety buffer). Even when talking about one-way (playback) latency, that 1.5ms leaves out the latency of the D/A converters and the driver's hidden safety buffer. CEntrance has an RTL test (doesn't work under Win7x64)... and there is another by Cycling '74 (that does work under Win7 x64). You connect an analog output (via audio cable) back to an analog input (making sure not to enable any onboard routing/mixing)... and run the test. The test is a short transient 'spike' that's sent thru the outputs... received back at the inputs... and measured for latency (compared to the time the signal was originally sent). This is your total round-trip latency Round-trip Latency is the sum of: - ASIO output buffer
- ASIO input buffer
- D/A and A/D converter
- The driver's hidden safety buffer
The best PCI/e units yield 5ms RTL at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k. That's as good as it gets. The best USB 2.0 and Firewire units yield 5.5ms RTL at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k Typical USB and Firewire unit that use a larger hidden safety buffer have RTL from about 8-12.5ms at those same settings. The larger the hidden safety buffer, the higher the RTL. If the Tascam allows a 64-sample ASIO buffer size, I'm going to guestimate its RTL at 10-12+ms. If the smallest ASIO buffer size is 128-samples, that figure is likely (significantly) higher. Thus far, only RME and M-Audio (in the Ultra units) have USB drivers that deliver RTL performance on par with the best PCI/e units. Based on their previous USB offerings, I don't expect the US1641 to offer particularly low RTL.
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dr.hash
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 19:16:16
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stratman70
I am going to look into the Fast Track Ultra 8R-depending on $$ I may have to go with the Fast Track Ultra. Guess it won't do what you say but I can only buy within my means
Thanks for your help-It's greatly appreciated.
Frank
Statman didn't you read my post M-Audio=danger. One thing check out the stats about dynamic range of convertors. This is somthing I have just learnt over the last few days' Try and get somthing with 118 db of dynamic range or higher. I had a look of a photo of the unit your looking in buying and as I thought it looks very plasticy and cheep. Really if you don;t need all the extra outs try Lexicon. Just my three cents!!! “In Search Of The Lost Digital Chord” Down with the false Gods. (Audio Schools) Viva la Revolution Sonar Forever, Pro Tools Never Ben B.C.T (Bachelor of Creative Technology) http://www.myspace.com/audiomystics
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yorolpal
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 19:28:02
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Well the Ultra is made of plastic. But it does not look or feel cheap. And mine is rock solid stable and provides me with 2.8ms latency (one way) @128. I've had no trouble running W7 64bit at all. Don't automatically believe everything you read CornBeef, ol pal (that is your first name isn't it?). Or what you just learned "recently".
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Bonzos Ghost
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 19:28:43
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If the Audiophile 24/96 card has worked out well so far, you can always add another one (or two) They'll work together like one card.
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stratman70
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 20:02:01
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dr.hash
stratman70
I am going to look into the Fast Track Ultra 8R-depending on $$ I may have to go with the Fast Track Ultra. Guess it won't do what you say but I can only buy within my means
Thanks for your help-It's greatly appreciated.
Frank
Statman didn't you read my post M-Audio=danger. One thing check out the stats about dynamic range of convertors. This is somthing I have just learnt over the last few days' Try and get somthing with 118 db of dynamic range or higher.
I had a look of a photo of the unit your looking in buying and as I thought it looks very plasticy and cheep. Really if you don;t need all the extra outs try Lexicon. Just my three cents!!!
“In Search Of The Lost Digital Chord”
Down with the false Gods. (Audio Schools)
Viva la Revolution
Sonar Forever, Pro Tools Never
Ben B.C.T (Bachelor of Creative Technology)
http://www.myspace.com/audiomystics
Dr H-I did read it-But I have been using m audio AP2496 (2 installed) for , I don't know 10 years or whatever. Never an issue-Drivers have been rock solid for me. But thanks for the post.
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stratman70
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 20:03:03
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Bonzos Ghost
If the Audiophile 24/96 card has worked out well so far, you can always add another one (or two) They'll work together like one card.
I have 2 installed now-but I am out of PCI slots and would rather just move to one unit. Thanks
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 23:10:21
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CAREFUL when you do try this... I've found the Ultra works EXCELLENTLY on my Alien without this. And when I have gotten greedy and tried "High Performance" mode, stability issues have crept in. Unfortunately, the only way I've found to then undo HiPerf mode is to uninstall/re-install the Ultra (since the control panel won't let me uncheck this mode once I turn it on ). That's generally an issue with laptops that have a higher end video card...
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johnnyV
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 23:24:58
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Thanks Jim, I did find something explaining that in the Sonar Help section under Latency. I didn't understand what they were explaining , now I do. It would seem like good marketing to me if your unit had the good specs to shout it out.
post edited by johnnyV - 2010/09/13 23:26:22
Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional Scarlett 6i6Yamaha Gear= 01v - NSM 10 - DTX 400 - MG82cx Roland Gear= A 49- GR 50 - TR 505 - Boss pedalsTascam Gear= DR 40 - US1641 -Mackie Gear= Mix 8 - SRM 350's i5 Z97 3.2GHZ quad 16 Gig RAM W 8.1 home buildTaylor mini GS - G& L Tribute Tele - 72 Fender Princeton - TC BH 250 - Mooer and Outlaw Pedals Korg 05/RW
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 23:27:53
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Try and get somthing with 118 db of dynamic range or higher. As a point of reference: Gear with greater than 117dB dynamic range is getting into world-class territory. To get greater than 118dB of dynamic range in an audio interface (a true measureable figure - not bogus), the OP would have to spend $1700+. The Fireface 400 and UC don't even achieve that... (they're at about 114dB dynamic range)
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 23:36:11
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It would seem like good marketing to me if your unit had the good specs to shout it out. I certainly agree with you in that I'd like to see the spec published for all audio interfaces. It would save a great deal of time/energy for many folks...
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:PCI interface going to USB Help Please
2010/09/13 23:58:37
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FYI, the latest RME PCI/PCIE cards go down to 32 samples - 0.7ms @ 44.1k/24b. I'm doing exactly what jim described - using amp sims and slate drums realtime for a fully virtual live session driven by sonar. its awesome and you can't be the peace and quiet! Now that's some *tight* timing... I wish all audio interfaces offered a 32-sample ASIO buffer size. With the speed of a well configured i7 based DAW, you can work effectively at a 32-sample ASIO buffer size.
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