gothic.angel
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Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
I really can't help it... ...beleive me, I have been trying for days until now, but just can't get used to fact that, WHILE WORKING ON TRACKS, I have to switch to the Inspector to reach features like "Key transposition", "Snap to scale", ecc, or remember where the Magnifier and Aim Assist (great feature) are now hidden... The previous way was NOT "cluttered" at all, it was handy and comofortable indeed...
Features were ALL there together, handy and easily available, not hidden or scattered like they are now...
These things keep me wanting to stick back to SONAR 8.5... which, having already upgraded to X1, drives me mad...! ...Thus, As I believe it woud not be hard to add them to new "Track Control Manager"... ...Here is a plea: Cakewalk, put those features BACK to their places...!!! Edit: BTW, while you're working on it, also bring back a "dark skin" (v8.5 was terrific to the eyes...), and the classic Sonar LOGO... thanks... 
post edited by gothic.angel - 2010/12/23 13:42:20
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tarsier
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/23 15:08:25
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The previous way was NOT "cluttered" at all, it was handy and comofortable indeed... Features were ALL there together, handy and easily available, not hidden or scattered like they are now... Yes, I agree. While the track inspector is a nice idea and useful for some things, the old track view's track headers had the majority of the needed information all right there in the track. Now there is a disconnect between the track, and for example the invert polarity button on an audio track or the items in the midi tracks mentioned by gothic.angel. It is the opposite of good workflow.
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cornieleous
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/23 15:09:43
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+1 We want options for our workflow, and we don't need you to choose for us. We are thinking beings!  EDIT: By the way, having all the controls in the track headers meant you could do so much with just the arrow keys and +/- keys. Apparently dragging the mouse all over and moving your eyes all over for scattered information that is represented 8 different ways is just much better than the concise representation we were all used to. D
post edited by cornieleous - 2010/12/23 15:12:07
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/23 15:16:23
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As gothic.angel has suggested it'd be good to have everything in the track view header available for selection/de-selection in the "Track Control Manager", not just so more can be added. I'd like to take away sometimes too.
I'd love to be able to get rid of everything except the track name for my comping view.......
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RodC
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/23 19:37:30
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How about the Phase toggle!! you can no longer glance at a set of tracks and see the polarity! You have to use the inspector.
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gothic.angel
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/24 06:04:33
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tarsier
The previous way was NOT "cluttered" at all, it was handy and comofortable indeed... Features were ALL there together, handy and easily available, not hidden or scattered like they are now... Yes, I agree. While the track inspector is a nice idea and useful for some things, the old track view's track headers had the majority of the needed information all right there in the track. Now there is a disconnect between the track, and for example the invert polarity button on an audio track or the items in the midi tracks mentioned by gothic.angel. It is the opposite of good workflow.
cornieleous
+1
We want options for our workflow, and we don't need you to choose for us. We are thinking beings!
EDIT: By the way, having all the controls in the track headers meant you could do so much with just the arrow keys and +/- keys. Apparently dragging the mouse all over and moving your eyes all over for scattered information that is represented 8 different ways is just much better than the concise representation we were all used to.
FastBikerBoy
As gothic.angel has suggested it'd be good to have everything in the track view header available for selection/de-selection in the "Track Control Manager", not just so more can be added. I'd like to take away sometimes too.
I'd love to be able to get rid of everything except the track name for my comping view.......
Thanks, guys... I quote your words above for they express exactly my meaning... Believe me, I love a LOT of new SONAR X1, but in all honesty I'm finding hard to accept such UNBELIEVABLE steps back in terms of CONFIGURATION... SONAR has always been famous for its HUGE flexibility which made it so DEEP AND POWERFUL... so why the heck change something so strong and turn it into something "poorer"...!!! I'm ANGRY because I love this DAW, but I gotta admit I feel (somehow) "betrayed"... I want MY DAW back...
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Keni
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/24 10:25:01
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I'm very bothered about the new selection of tools as well... For me cluttered doesn't mean anything... Yes, I need a lot of tools to do my work efficiently.... If I put them away it takes me far too long to keep taking them out.... and dragging the mouse all over the screen to go from one location to another and one method to another just isn't efficient for me. It was very simple to have all my tools in one place and available.
We had the ability to have them ALL available (via tab) or factory groups (i/o, MIX, FX) and even one tab we could customize.... What was the problem?
Now tools are scattered and even important buttons labels are changed.... things such as record and delete (actually a pet peeve from 8.5).... Where is the thinking in this?
I understand this is a new product, but it was advertised as an upgrade.... NOT a new product.... I've spent years progressivley learning Sonar now forced not only to change my habits, but slowed at the same time...
Yes, there are elements of X1 I like... The Prochannel is cool... I'm getting used to the smart tool and the alterations in MIDI editing (tho there are a few bugs here).... But the graphics of the new UI may be liberating in some ways, but the apparently forced simplistics of imagery as well as the large amount of screen real estate is difficult due to all the changes it's forcing...
I hope a better way can be reached soon...
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gothic.angel
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/24 13:11:42
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Keni
... For me cluttered doesn't mean anything... Yes, I need a lot of tools to do my work efficiently.... If I put them away it takes me far too long to keep taking them out.... ... It was very simple to have all my tools in one place and available.
We had the ability to have them ALL available (via tab) or factory groups (i/o, MIX, FX) and even one tab we could customize.... What was the problem?
Now tools are scattered and even important buttons labels are changed.... things such as record and delete (actually a pet peeve from 8.5).... Where is the thinking in this?
...
I hope a better way can be reached soon...
Yes, Keni... EXACTLY.... those are key points... One thing is for sure, friends... maybe I will become repetitive and pedant, and I beg your pardon in advance for this... ...but I'm not gonna stop my outcry/complaint on the subject... posting over and over until CAKEWALK will listen/answer somehow... Izzat naive..? maybe it is... but, at this point, why not....? It was a DEEP... such a DEEP program... DEEPER than anything else... now seems just "one in the crowd".... 
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John T
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/24 13:15:36
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That posting over and over thing is a serious drag, really. Fill out the friggin bug report form. This is a peer to peer forum, and a significant number of cakewalk staff don't participate in it. All you're doing is annoying other customers.
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gothic.angel
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/24 13:23:00
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John T
That posting over and over thing is a serious drag, really. Fill out the friggin bug report form. This is a peer to peer forum, and a significant number of cakewalk staff don't participate in it. All you're doing is annoying other customers.
1) It's not a question of "bugs" here.... 2) can't annoy customers, for they are not forced to read and/or partecipate... Thank you, anyway, for your interest...
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John T
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/24 13:28:25
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OK, fill out the friggin feature request form.
If you're not talking about bugs, you're being even less reasonable. What you're saying here is that you fully intend to go MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE
Seriously, dude, get a grip.
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gothic.angel
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/24 13:38:43
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To "John T": I don't even quote your "words"... I let you know, We don't need one with the "power" to tell the others what is worth posting and what is not... Especially when YOU are wasting space with "moot", very "useful" replies about "chocolate"... You may like it or not, WE have points to discuss here... Thus...Do US a favour... leave this thread, only if you please, of course... Thank you again...
post edited by gothic.angel - 2010/12/24 14:14:01
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/24 13:46:10
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Can I have some chocolate too please? John T does have a point though, stick a feature request in. That's the only way you're going to know someone at Cakewalk has actually read it. Plus if enough of us do it it may get implemented.
I'm off to do mine now, something along the lines of - Please make the TV header completely customisable.
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gothic.angel
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/24 13:59:12
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FastBikerBoy
Can I have some chocolate too please? John T does have a point though, stick a feature request in. That's the only way you're going to know someone at Cakewalk has actually read it. Plus if enough of us do it it may get implemented.
I'm off to do mine now, something along the lines of - Please make the TV header completely customisable.
Of course, "Biker", that's right (and was understood...) Only... it's unacceptable that someone jumps in snobbing the thread, pretending to have the "knowledge" to teach it can only "annoy customers"... Those not interested, can always keep out... See ya soon, mates...
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...wicked
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/24 14:00:18
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John T
If you're not talking about bugs, you're being even less reasonable. What you're saying here is that you fully intend to go MUMMY I WANT CHOCOLATE
Is there a chocolate dispenser in X1? I haven't found that yet.
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John T
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/24 14:02:12
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NO! ALL THE PRO PROGRAMS HAVE CHOCOLATE, DEAL-BREAKER.
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John T
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/24 14:04:01
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gothic.angel
FastBikerBoy
Can I have some chocolate too please? John T does have a point though, stick a feature request in. That's the only way you're going to know someone at Cakewalk has actually read it. Plus if enough of us do it it may get implemented.
I'm off to do mine now, something along the lines of - Please make the TV header completely customisable.
Of course, "Biker", that's right (and was understood...)
Only... it's unacceptable that someone jumps in snobbing the thread, pretending to have the "knowledge" to teach it can only "annoy customers"...
Hmm. Is it acceptable to pretend to have the "knowledge" to teach it can only be "unacceptable"?
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gothic.angel
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/24 14:22:17
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John T
Hmm. Is it acceptable to pretend to have the "knowledge" to teach it can only be "unacceptable"? Come on, john, don't twist it inside out... give it a cut... ...you are the only one who came in pretending to tell "right from wrong" (not requested...) here... But, you see, we ALL "exceed" at times... ...I'm not offended, so let's shake hands and go on well much as we can...  True Regards...
post edited by gothic.angel - 2010/12/24 14:38:49
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Keni
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/25 00:01:01
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Do yourself a favor.... If you don't like us talking about these issues... Don't participate.... If it bothers you that much... do something else... Don't even read past the subject line as you obviously don't want to hear this... Some of us have different thoughts than yours... But then in the spirit of open forum, go ahead and have attitude... I can ignore it... after this... ;-) But I would like some chocolate if you're giving it away....
post edited by Keni - 2010/12/25 00:03:14
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gothic.angel
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/30 16:05:24
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...come on guys... let your voices be heard loud about this...!
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Keni
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2010/12/30 17:34:47
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I agree that this is a big issue...
They appear to have decided that simply having a monsterous amount of keyboard shortcuts was the way to get around what they were considering "screen clutter"... Very nice for people with an enormous amount of personal memory and a lack of confusion between "hmmm... Is this command ctrl-click or alt-shift-right-click".... the buttons were a way of always having the tools without being forced to memorize such a collection of unruly hidden commands...
Now even if something is available, it's always dependent on memory.... Great for those who can... but the rest of us?
How about this.... Make "ALL', Truly All! And let people customize a screen's tools in the custom view... Oh... We had this in earlier versions of Sonar? Imagine that? A way to unclutter the screen.....and shortcuts....? It seems with the addition of new ones, we've lost a number of old ones... So was there gain? Right now a large number of those that are there aren't even working!
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gothic.angel
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2011/01/01 15:38:09
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Keni
I agree that this is a big issue...
They appear to have decided that simply having a monsterous amount of keyboard shortcuts was the way to get around what they were considering "screen clutter"... Very nice for people with an enormous amount of personal memory and a lack of confusion between "hmmm... Is this command ctrl-click or alt-shift-right-click".... the buttons were a way of always having the tools without being forced to memorize such a collection of unruly hidden commands...
Now even if something is available, it's always dependent on memory.... Great for those who can... but the rest of us?
How about this.... Make "ALL', Truly All! And let people customize a screen's tools in the custom view... Oh... We had this in earlier versions of Sonar? Imagine that? A way to unclutter the screen.....and shortcuts....? It seems with the addition of new ones, we've lost a number of old ones... So was there gain? Right now a large number of those that are there aren't even working!
Yes, mate... The more I spend with X1, the more I can't see why people didn't realize how much power those "buttons" gave to us... ...immediate feature and visual feedback..! but, no...! Many of us (THEM....) thought they just "fulfilled" the GUI, clutter this... clutter that... BLA, BLA...!!! Not the mention the ridiculous story of keyboard commands... when playing, clicking the mouse is the EASIEST way to use JUST one hand to reach ANY feature, anywhere... in fact it's similar to clicking buttons on hardware... I personally hate to "type" on the Keyboard while playing... it's unnatural...!!!!  No peace, really... I STILL CAN'T ACCEPT THE "NEW" WAY....
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Keni
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2011/01/02 10:18:47
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Someone mentioned that I'd be surprized how many of my associates will like all the shortcuts? I don't think they get it... the majority of people I know freak out at shortcuts in ANY program as it means memorizing and remembering instead of looking and grabbing...
Shortcuts are handy for those of us who can enjoy them, but the buttons were far more used even for shortcuts that existed in 8.5...... I watch the way people use them and it takes a long time for them to get comfortable with a few shortcuts let alone depending on them for everything!
There was no clutter... It's a workspace not a showplace!
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jben
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2011/01/02 11:23:28
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Personally,I hated all those buttons.
I would have to put on my reading glasses and go nuts looking for the stupid little button that I was looking for.
Sometimes I would need to go to the tool bar menu and delete and then re-insert the buttons I was looking for so I could watch them pop up so I could find them.
I now that in 8.5 I could eliminate the buttons that I didn't use frequently but then when I did need them I had scroll through menus to find them or add them to the tool bar.
I guess it would be nice if you guys had the option to have it the old way. I don't know what is involved in doing that.
Maybe you can't please all the people all the time.
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Guest
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2011/01/02 11:36:40
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jben
Personally,I hated all those buttons.
I would have to put on my reading glasses and go nuts looking for the stupid little button that I was looking for.
Sometimes I would need to go to the tool bar menu and delete and then re-insert the buttons I was looking for so I could watch them pop up so I could find them.
I now that in 8.5 I could eliminate the buttons that I didn't use frequently but then when I did need them I had scroll through menus to find them or add them to the tool bar.
I guess it would be nice if you guys had the option to have it the old way. I don't know what is involved in doing that.
Maybe you can't please all the people all the time.
This is about the controls in the track header not the menus. In the other versions you could have very little info and instantly get it in the inspector or you could have it all in the TVH. Since I never use the CV I need all that info where I can see it.
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keith
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2011/01/02 12:27:50
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10Ten
This is about the controls in the track header not the menus. In the other versions you could have very little info and instantly get it in the inspector or you could have it all in the TVH. Since I never use the CV I need all that info where I can see it.
The "old people" are probably more likely want to use CV heavily for mixing. The "young people" should... and I mean should... be able to only use TV for just about everything. I hadn't used CV in years, and thought X1 would change that... i.e., I would actually want to use CV, because it's so much better than the old CV. Now I don't have a choice. It's CV or nothing. Well, actually, I do have a choice, but that's another "open letter" thread for a another time... Or maybe "nothing" can be replaced with some Blender-esque alt-ctrl-shift-meta key combination that I have no patience for. We'll see. Need to spend more time with X1. Not having options is a bummer though.
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Guest
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2011/01/02 12:31:57
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If you are a person that likes CV, buy a Blehringer BCF2000 and find Fastbiker's post on it and download the PDF. You will never need to see CV again. Ever.
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keith
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2011/01/02 12:43:27
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That's a sad thing to say about a major UI component! Besides, I have no interest in more hardware trinkets laying upon desk space that I seem to be running short on. 
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Guest
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2011/01/02 12:46:05
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keith
That's a sad thing to say about a major UI component! Besides, I have no interest in more hardware trinkets laying upon desk space that I seem to be running short on.
I thought that too. Then I bought one of them and I'm now trying to figure out who I can steal a real MCU from (for the jog and the LCDs). But, you have to actually know how it works. Until I went through FBB's PDF to see how to change modes and such, I didn't think it was a good thing.
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Keni
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Re:Please, Bring all tools BACK to the track headers...
2011/01/02 12:48:30
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jben
Personally,I hated all those buttons.
I would have to put on my reading glasses and go nuts looking for the stupid little button that I was looking for.
Sometimes I would need to go to the tool bar menu and delete and then re-insert the buttons I was looking for so I could watch them pop up so I could find them.
I now that in 8.5 I could eliminate the buttons that I didn't use frequently but then when I did need them I had scroll through menus to find them or add them to the tool bar.
I guess it would be nice if you guys had the option to have it the old way. I don't know what is involved in doing that.
Maybe you can't please all the people all the time.
Here's the point... If you wanted the buttons off screen 8.5 allowed this... and you could create most shortcuts if you wanted them then too... this is not unique to x1 simply an exclusive method now... (other than menu diving) So while now you have all your shortcuts pre-made, I don't have my choice to add buttons.... This is a big backward step for cakewalk... Reducing options instead of increasing them!
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