Please excuse my excitement for Bapu

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spacey
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/02 08:35:27 (permalink)
UbiquitousBubba


Beautiful work.  There's real artistry in your creation.  I'm sure you'll be pleased when it's done.  (Don't forget to autograph it.)

Thank you Bubba! Sorry for the bad pic...the label has...name> Custom 2011  S.N. 001
The reason for such a big cavity cover ...I though if modification for active or more controls I'd
leave room and make it an easy job.
 
And thanks Wookiee and Greg...appreciate you guys.
 

#31
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2011/02/02 09:10:17 (permalink)
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2019/01/09 18:52:53


#32
spacey
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/02 09:39:43 (permalink)
mike_mccue


Wow!!!

I had noticed the 4 *holes* and was wondering what was planned.

That is such a smart idea for a cavity cover... great stuff.

The idea of possible expansion is also very cool... although I'd just tell bapsi he just needs to order another bass. :-)


best regards,
mike

Shhhh...I stole that from Pedulla...top secret stuff..
#33
Positively Charged
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/03 00:11:03 (permalink)
Impressive!

I would like you to expand more on the effort you made to get the fret spacings correct.  I mean it's REALLY gotta be correct or the intonation will be off and will get worse as one plays up the fret board.

I find the critical measurements would be the scale length, then the spacings from nut to fret 1; then from fret to fret all the way up.

Do you have a company to machine your slots, or did you do all that yourself?  What safeguards did you take to ensure that the first fret is the correct distance from the nut and the slots are correctly spaced between each other?  Also, what would you do if you find one or two frets slightly off?  Even a discrepancy of a millimeter or two might make an error progressively worse with each fret up the board...

The math behind this fascinates me because if the instrument is off target, individual string intonation adjusters might not be able to fully correct the problem.  In the worst case, the instrument will be unplayable.  No, maybe the worst case is if the intrument is only partially playable, because the player will keep trying and trying and trying, and fighting ear fatigue all the way.  

I am curious how instrument builders prevent such a disaster from happening.
#34
spacey
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/03 08:45:38 (permalink)
PC,
The fret spacing is easy to obtain for any scale length.
It can be had as a ruler or a ruler in part of a jig.

Methods of cutting the slot may determine ruler of choice.

I make my fretboards. I radius them, slot, install the fret, file and dress them.
All of these steps have different methods of preference to builders and I will not
say that one is better or worse, only what I prefer and why.
I'll also note that any choice may be changed due to design. An example; A neck that
is also the fretboard or "one-piece" as opposed to a "two-piece" with fretboard attached.

To answer the question of what I'd do if one or two frets where off?...The method (jig) that I use will not have one or two off. If I messed up they all would be off as far as
in scale length.
The discrepancy you mention will only be in intonation adjustment that will be compensated for at bridge adjusting saddles. ( not including the math issues of determining fret distance and one fret to make the division for all six strings)

You are absolutely correct in thinking "critical measurements" although I'd like to
mention that fret spacing is not the only factor. The frets crowning and installation
are critical too.
I have to expand "critical" to every part of the build. It is mindset. My opinion is one
cannot drill holes for tuning machines with the mindset that placement and size and
the quality of the drilling is not critical. Those holes need to be as precise without chips and approached with the same mindset as any other "critical" aspect of the instrument.

My process is;
I made a table saw and jig (slide) to cut the frets. It is designed and setup for that
function only.
The metal scale is attached to fretboard wood and is set in place by a notch/pin setting
for each fret location of the given scale.
Slot depth is a determined adjustment by thickness of wood and depth of fret tang.
Depending on the fretboard and fret installation the depth of slot may be set for choice.
An example is a bound fretboard. Or when tang is cut back and fretboard filled so the
tang is not visible at edge.
At the time of cutting the fret slots one may also cut a slot or completely cut of the board at nut placement. Example- Fender nuts set in the fretboard as Gibson LP end at the nut.
Design is factor. Of course is choice.

Once the slots are cut I radius the board.

There are choice of methods for fret installation.
They may be hammered in or pressed.
I prefer to press. I use an arbor press with a radiused brass plate that fits
on the fret. I also use glue. After pressing the frets I like to give the fretwire
a little tap with my hammer to assure they have set at the edge of the fretboard
then I trim them off.
I lightly run a file down the edge just to remove and sharp metal. Nothing else will be
done until end of build. Then I file and dress the frets.
One may also realize that the size of fret and crown are factors in intonation and a critical
part as well.

Another critical stage is attaching the fretboard to the neck. I mentioned the issue
of it sliding around and how to assure that it's kept in place by pinning and that length
is not the only factor but also centerline.

You may realize that during all of this the bridge has not be installed.
One may think that's good, if the fretboards off a little the bridge placement can
correct that. True but not the mindset that I personally choose.
That can get you in trouble. Example; A pickguard is to used. Well it may be designed
to go around the bridge....oops...if you don't have the right mindset. One may spend more
time trying to get out of a bind or worst case, lose the instrument.

PC I can tell you after building one guitar and trying to finish this bass....Critical starts
at the very beginning when picking out the wood and doesn't letup until it's done.
It's only after building that all that becomes so real. The instrument will not tolerate
anything less.

I hope I did good here...you can go to Stu Mac's and see all kinds of tools for
fretwork and also the scale length rulers and jigs. Very cool stuff.

Regards,
Michael

#35
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2011/02/03 09:48:24 (permalink)
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2019/01/09 18:53:20


#36
dlogan
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/03 11:27:40 (permalink)
Wow that is already looking gorgeous!! You are a true talent. Very impressive...
#37
bapu
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/03 11:28:45 (permalink)
dlogan


Wow that is already looking gorgeous!! You are a true talent. Very impressive...

Thanks. But what about the bass spacey is making?


#38
Jonbouy
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/03 11:45:11 (permalink)
bapu


dlogan


Wow that is already looking gorgeous!! You are a true talent. Very impressive...

Thanks. But what about the space Bapu is taking?

Fixed?


"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles.
In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
#39
bapu
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/03 12:05:39 (permalink)
Jonbouy


bapu


dlogan


Wow that is already looking gorgeous!! You are a true talent. Very impressive...

Thanks. But what about the space Bapu is taking?

Fixed?

Yup.


#40
drumstixkev
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/03 21:37:50 (permalink)
INCREDIBLE detail in your work!  That is sooooooo awesome.

Kev

VoxBoxStudio music made with SONAR & SONiCA AUDIO LAB computers.   Website http://drumstixkev.wix.com/voxboxstudio 

#41
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/04 01:13:03 (permalink)
Spacey, thanks for the detailed response.  I feel a lot better knowing your process.  Someday we may talk about doing business...

Mike Mc:  Although it sounds plausible on the surface, I disagree with the practice of just making a tracing of a "known good fretboard".  As Spacey covered quite thoroughly, there are a lot of factors involved.  In my original query I had neglected to mention the "radiusing" of the fretboard, which will have a major impact, as will the material, shape, and dressing of the fret wires.

You can make two fretboards, both being "rubbings" (tracings) from the most heavenly guitar ever and still end up with two instruments sounding completely different from the template instrument.  And the copies could very well have serious (okay, I really mean FATAL) intonation flaws.

Personally, I believe the math is 90% of the problem (as well as 90% of the solution), but that remaining 10% is the ear and expertise of the builder, and it's the factor that separates the "great" fretted instrument builder from all others.  That 10% is how he makes his money, because it is his 10% that will be the ultimate make-or-break for the instrument.

And really, the math is the easy part, with today's jigs and tools.  The 10% is the hard part!

I think good workmanship is what's been done before the paint goes on.  The math has to be correct and the 10% has to be correct or the instrument will not be playable.  At least not by anybody who must play with other musicians whos instruments are tuned to any coherent pitch, concert or otherwise.

I'll take an ugly but accurate and playable instrument over a pretty face any day.  If it's a solid body and it already plays correctly, then it's already got everything going for it and just about every cosmetic failing can either be fixed or ignored!

Anyway, I'm just bloviating here.  But I did try playing an improperly intonated instrument once.  It was in fact, an "epic fail" situation, corrected only by major surgery, which I did have done, and at great expense to me.  

It was worth every penny.  But I won't do that again, not ever.  The instrument must be correct from the beginning or I won't take the leap.
#42
spacey
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/04 08:47:34 (permalink)
PC, thank you for the vote of confidence.
I apologize If you were misled into thinking I build guitars to sell or that I am in "business" as I'm not.

It's no more than a newly acquired hobby.
I feel if I were "in business" it would not be ethical for me to be bringing it here.

The guitar I built for myself, the bass and guitar I'm building or will be building are
for long time associates here that I consider friends. There is no profit in the instruments.
If the builds are a success I'll send them so they can play them. If not...I don't send them or they send them back.
I ask not, and would not accept a profit and a complete build sheet will be included when I ship the instruments. ( and only if I think they're good enough to ship....I've yet to hear or play the bass and I'm choosing wood for the guitar)

Regards,
Michael

post edited by spacey - 2011/02/04 08:49:50
#43
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2011/02/04 08:56:23 (permalink)
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2019/01/09 18:53:31


#44
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/08 00:55:14 (permalink)
Very well, thanks for the info Spacey and Mike. 
#45
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2011/02/08 08:40:46 (permalink)
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2019/01/09 18:53:43


#46
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/08 18:16:18 (permalink)
Mike, I agree. 

That nut-to-first fret measurement is critical, and an error here cannot be fixed by intonation adjustments, because the error will get progressively/geometrically worse with each fret up the board, eventually surpassing the ability of the maker to take up the slack by shaping the frets.

An error there will make it exhaustingly hard on any musician who can actually HEAR pitches and can ruin an otherwise beautiful instrument.

Of course some might never hear a problem.  Like the people who hired the Black Eyed Peas to play the superbowl.
#47
spacey
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Re:Please excuse my excitement for Bapu 2011/02/10 12:06:23 (permalink)
PC,
I feel although I didn't go into specific details with the nut placement
and Equal Temperment I assumed that mentioning the
pinned ruler would explain well enough.

I was surely not avoiding your very important question and point of interest.

Even though the pinned metal scale has a high degree of accuracy I don't believe
it allows for the critical issue that you raise.
This area of importance is not only in the critical length of the distance from the
nut to the first fret but also in the accuracy of the point of rest per string and what
I refer to as "nut action" or "nut tolerance" which is the depth of cut in the nut
in relation to the height of the first fret.
All of which are critical adjustments made in "thousanths" of an inch.
And then one may consider also the opinions of some that believe the "standard"
distance supplied in predetermined scales is to great and one may consider shortening
it.
And not to forget the nut placement in being verticle ( not slanted) to maintain this
critical distance.

If you felt I didn't answer you or avoided your point I indeed apologize.
The "nut" has been a topic of a few threads here and it seems to be an area
where folks would benefit by looking at it a little closer.

Regards,
Michael
#48
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