dbmusic
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Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
Please, this has gone on long enough. How can CW continue to sell new upgrades and still not fix this buggy mess? Every project I work on in Sonar, and I do mean literally EVERY project, I find weird, unpredictable clip and track envelope bugs when working in track layers. Tonight I had multiple envelope clips in the same layered track at the same time. In trying to fix the mess I had sections of both track and clip envelopes get deleted when deleting a clip. Sometimes when trying to move an envelope on a clip, a clip on a frozen envelope in a different layer just above would move. Things generally start out when you notice that one or more clip envelopes are not working. Then soon after you'll find a group of frozen volume envelopes (and this is apart from the long standing issue of being able to freeze a clip envelope by right-clicking your mouse while dragging a node, requiring a restart of Sonar to resolve). Sometimes moving the clip to a different layer will unfreeze it. Most often, not. Rebooting Sonar does not help (except when a frozen clip envelope is created via right-clicking as mentioned above). Most often I have to resolve the issue by dragging the clip to the desktop, dragging it back into Sonar, and deleting the original clip. And when you start deleting clips with envelopes in track layers with other clips with envelopes, all hell breaks loose (entire envelopes disappearing on other clips, sections of both track and clip envelopes disappearing. I just don't understand why such things get no developmental priority. Plenty of people complaining, fundamental audio tools that are defective, problem reports submitted...yet nothing gets done. Yet they always manage to throw together another razzle-dazzle "upgrade". Regards, DB
post edited by dbmusic - 2009/09/22 02:40:44
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Keni
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/20 10:12:38
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I'm with you on this one...
Working with envelopes on layered tracks has become a real nightmare... I experience mostly the situation of deleting one envelope and having others (often many) getting deleted... But it's not only with envelopes... I have had clips act the same way... Deleting one and others get deleted.... Extremely frustrating and causing a huge amount of labor to find work arounds...
I was hoping this got fixed in 8.5 as I haven't done enuf work to come across this again... yet... <sigh>... I'm not looking forward to it.
I hope they're realizingthe need for fixing such... Maybe part of the reason this is still called version 8?
Keni
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shakey.oberon
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/20 10:16:12
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/20 10:32:16
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DW_Mike
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/20 10:40:54
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I almost cried when I heard they didn't fix the envelopes again. But hey at least they included a pretty picture of a drum set with SD3. That's important too ya know.  Mike
Sonar X3 ~ Scarlett 18i6 ~ Home Build DAW
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UnderTow
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/20 10:55:17
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*sigh*
I hope they don't "fix it". I hope they do a complete overhaul of the envelope/automation system in Sonar. In the mean time I have been playing with Reaper. Regardless of anything else, the envelopes rock. :)
UnderTow
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arkiruthis
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/20 12:23:18
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UnderTow
*sigh*
I hope they don't "fix it". I hope they do a complete overhaul of the envelope/automation system in Sonar. In the mean time I have been playing with Reaper. Regardless of anything else, the envelopes rock. :)
UnderTow
+1 Honestly, I think it is time to rip out the envelope code completely and start from scratch. Inexplicable things like deleting a node and other nodes around it dissapear, lines become "jump" lines if you delete a node between 2 linear points, crashes from orphaned envelopes, instrument track envelopes can't be copied, etc. Many of us seem to encounter problems with envelopes and many of us encounter vastly different but equally frustrating problems with them. Time to give envelopes a "back, crack and sack". 
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Marah
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/21 00:34:11
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UnderTow
*sigh*
I hope they don't "fix it". I hope they do a complete overhaul of the envelope/automation system in Sonar. In the mean time I have been playing with Reaper. Regardless of anything else, the envelopes rock. :)
UnderTow
Reaper's envelope/automation system is one of the main reasons it's now my main platform. For me, at both clip-level and track/bus-level, for envelope creation, editing, and management, in terms of both ease and sophistication (a difficult combo) AND reliability, Reaper is so far ahead of Sonar that going back to Sonar simply isn't possible. Does Sonar 8.5 let you keybind clip envelopes, or is its absence still one of the great imponderables of the Sonar saga? (The continued lack of clip envelope keybinding -- a basic function for which the underlying keybind-command system has been in place for years! -- is what forces my conclusion that no one at CW actually uses Sonar in a way even remotely like I do. That why it goes deeper than just kvetching about this feature or that and hoping against hope for maybe next year... it's a systemic and cultural thing.) (PS This forum software is unfortunately too consistent with all of the above.)
post edited by Marah - 2009/09/21 00:37:52
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LixiSoft
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/21 09:45:20
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STILL NOT FIXED............OK,
This has been an issue for too long to have not been fixed. Sorry but I won't upgrade until this most BASIC OF DAW FEATURES is working as expected.
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mudgel
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/21 09:52:38
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Haven't you read the Whos having the best time with SONAR 8.5 thread. There's nothing at all wrong with the program. All the regulars have said so.
How dare you suggest that there's something wrong.
I've had a license for "R" so i guess I'll just start using it so I can get past all this rubbish of old unfixed bugs just glossed over with more baubles to do the razzle dazzle but then even the new toys are poorly implemented.
I've had enough for now. Maybe by SONAR 10 they'll get their act together if they're still going.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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Keni
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/21 10:06:02
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Yes...
This has been a very surprising issue that's been acknowledged for a long time. ...and as many users are pointing out, this is truly a basic tool of the DAW that is used (and misused) by the majority.
I'm guessing that it's so intertwined with the code that the fix isn't as simple as imagined.... and now that The Bakers have to make ovens as well as cakes (couldn't resist the image), Too many man-hours are needed on these 'priority' topics...
But how could they (in good conscience) spend those hours on developing a new drum machine, yet another market, instead of fixing such a glaring issue! I'm sure that the sexiness of including a drum machine helps sales, but a solid DAW will sell even more! Make the public believe that by creating it. A DAW that actually fills it's promises before adding glitz...
Well... Let's hope they're listening as this is an important issue to the majority including the hardware users...
Keni
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RTGraham
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/21 10:13:58
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LixiSoft
STILL NOT FIXED............OK,
This has been an issue for too long to have not been fixed. Sorry but I won't upgrade until this most BASIC OF DAW FEATURES is working as expected.
I think I'm in the same boat. I'm still on SONAR 6, as a matter of fact. At first I was delaying upgrading because I was in the middle of a large project that I needed to complete without dealing with new updates, configurations, etc. Then I found out that S7 didn't fix the envelope bugs. Then I found out that S8 didn't fix the envelope bugs! Now 8.5 still has buggy envelopes? I was thinking about finally moving up from S6, but this thread is convincing me otherwise.
~~~~~~~~~~ Russell T. Graham Keys, Vocals, Songwriting, Production russell DOT graham AT rtgproductions DOT com www DOT myspace DOT com SLASH russelltgraham
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vocalid
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/21 10:15:51
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Marah
UnderTow
*sigh*
I hope they don't "fix it". I hope they do a complete overhaul of the envelope/automation system in Sonar. In the mean time I have been playing with Reaper. Regardless of anything else, the envelopes rock. :)
UnderTow
Reaper's envelope/automation system is one of the main reasons it's now my main platform. For me, at both clip-level and track/bus-level, for envelope creation, editing, and management, in terms of both ease and sophistication (a difficult combo) AND reliability, Reaper is so far ahead of Sonar that going back to Sonar simply isn't possible.
Does Sonar 8.5 let you keybind clip envelopes, or is its absence still one of the great imponderables of the Sonar saga? (The continued lack of clip envelope keybinding -- a basic function for which the underlying keybind-command system has been in place for years! -- is what forces my conclusion that no one at CW actually uses Sonar in a way even remotely like I do. That why it goes deeper than just kvetching about this feature or that and hoping against hope for maybe next year... it's a systemic and cultural thing.)
(PS This forum software is unfortunately too consistent with all of the above.)
quote: Refugees Welcome If you currently use another DAW, you might be reading this because you're contemplating shelling out $150 for the next overhyped version that doesn't address any of the bugs you've been complaining about for five years while adding a bunch of features you couldn't care less about. What does REAPER have to offer you? Zey haf spies here and zey know all ze dirty secrets ja? ...honestly, I keep hearing more and more about Reaper.... starting to get tempted!
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Glennbo 
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/21 10:15:53
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Marah
Reaper's envelope/automation system is one of the main reasons it's now my main platform. For me, at both clip-level and track/bus-level, for envelope creation, editing, and management, in terms of both ease and sophistication (a difficult combo) AND reliability, Reaper is so far ahead of Sonar that going back to Sonar simply isn't possible.
It was a bug I'd seen through 3 versions of Sonar that made me switch to Reaper.
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dbmusic
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 03:03:22
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Marah
UnderTow
*sigh*
I hope they don't "fix it". I hope they do a complete overhaul of the envelope/automation system in Sonar. In the mean time I have been playing with Reaper. Regardless of anything else, the envelopes rock. :)
UnderTow
Reaper's envelope/automation system is one of the main reasons it's now my main platform. For me, at both clip-level and track/bus-level, for envelope creation, editing, and management, in terms of both ease and sophistication (a difficult combo) AND reliability, Reaper is so far ahead of Sonar that going back to Sonar simply isn't possible.
Does Sonar 8.5 let you keybind clip envelopes, or is its absence still one of the great imponderables of the Sonar saga? (The continued lack of clip envelope keybinding -- a basic function for which the underlying keybind-command system has been in place for years! -- is what forces my conclusion that no one at CW actually uses Sonar in a way even remotely like I do. That why it goes deeper than just kvetching about this feature or that and hoping against hope for maybe next year... it's a systemic and cultural thing.)
(PS This forum software is unfortunately too consistent with all of the above.)
I'm totally with you on the implications of this continued lack of clip envelope key binding. It may be a little thing to some, but it implies a great deal to me about the direction Sonar has taken. I too have recently joined the Reaper camp. Imagine my delight when I realized you could key bind Take (clip) pan and volume envelopes...and when splitting audio clips they automatically add fades at the split segments...and that all takes, midi and audio alike, are designed as loops from the moment they are created. I'm just getting started, but what this says to me is that someone over there actually understands the importance of solid, fundamental audio production/editing tools and workflow. It took me all of 2 days to decide to purchase a license. Meanwhile, Sonar 8.3.1 crashed twice tonight while simply attempting to copy and paste an envelope from a layered track. There are so many things I like about Sonar and the way it suits my workflow. But this lack of attention to a fundamental audio feature that is riddled with bugs, is unacceptable...and speaks volumes to the regard held toward DAW features that are important to me. Regards, DB
post edited by dbmusic - 2009/09/22 03:05:01
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Jose7822
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 03:26:19
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UnderTow
*sigh*
I hope they don't "fix it". I hope they do a complete overhaul of the envelope/automation system in Sonar.
UnderTow
+1000
Intel Q9400 2.66 GHz 8 GB of RAM @ 800 Mhz ATI Radeon HD 3650 Windows 7 Professional (SP1) x64 Cubase 6.03 x64 Sonar PE 8.5.3 x64 RME FireFace 400 Frontier Design Alpha Track Studio Logic VMK-188 Plus http://www.youtube.com/user/SonarHD
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Marah
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 04:06:49
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dbmusic
I just don't understand why such things get no developmental priority. Plenty of people complaining, fundamental audio tools that are defective, problem reports submitted...yet nothing gets done. Yet they always manage to throw together another razzle-dazzle "upgrade".
Regards,
DB
The way I see it, the reason they don't fix it is because they either don't think it's important, or it simply can't be done with the current codebase and development resources. I'm in the "can't be done" camp, mainly because it would be just too depressing to think that my DAW's developer doesn't appreciate the importance of flexible and reliable modern automation. It also seems like a more glass-half-full point of view than glass-half-empty. But not by a lot. Either way, having started with Sonar 2 and ending up at 7, skipping 8 and waiting with interest for 8.5 (and doing my best not to let the the tonedeaf promotions and offers leading up to 8.5 color my perception of the cokpany), my conclusion is that no matter how many more Sonar updates and upgrades they're able to squeeze out, the "Sonar" line itself is a dead end. Up and down the feature set, the balance between "fix it" vs. "complete overhaul" is past the tipping point. And that doesn't address must-have features that haven't seen an initial implementation. Does anyone seriously think that an upgrade to the current codebase will ever include a good implementation of varispeed? Or a UI/keyboard/toolbar command customization system that's not out of the 1940s in DAW years?
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cyberzip
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 07:17:08
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vocalid
...honestly, I keep hearing more and more about Reaper.... starting to get tempted!
I tried Reaper on my laptop recently and was impressed with the usability! The quick looping feature is very sweet (enabled by default) - when you drag a selection on the timeline, playback automatically loops. And when you paste measures, it automatically places the cursor at the end of the newly pasted measures, so that you very conveniently can paste it again and again, building up a track. I think it's mainly these kind of usability enhancements that Sonar could use. The competition has some smart things going on!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 07:39:02
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It feels like they are trying to squeeze every last cent of of each of us before as individuals we just stop upgrading. It's a weird strategy. Maybe it's there best option?
I like what Celemony just did. They made me a promise. I bought in to their program. They were honest about being unable to deliver on time... but they insisted on maintaining a standard of quality... and apparently have done what it takes to deliver the goods. Thanks for setting a high standard Celemony.
Cakewalk is acting as if they have abandoned the DAW as an open appliance (which comes with universal expectations of usability and quality) and are racing themselves to define a new product category... namely and all in one instrument that seems intended to be a band in a box for "emerging customers".
I wonder if they know they are trying to compete with Garage Band? When they could have been a Pro Tools killer.
It's a strategy that seems to be turning off existing customers faster than it's capturing emerging customers.
Learning recently that the excuse is that it is too hard to fix glaring problems makes it obvious that the current marketing strategy is to hide the problems behind a new layer of new add ons.
The envelope debacle is a case of Cakewalk having delivered a broken product... the product is broken... it was not delivered to paying customers in good faith... anybody that chooses to work around this while cheering Cakewalk on for their latest efforts will eventually be sold out, disregarded, and treated as disrepectfully as those of us who currently recognize that delivering and NEVER FIXING a broken product is unacceptable.
Bummer.
When people gang up to complain about people like ourselves who complain... they bolster and enable Cakewalk's ability perpetuate this pattern of delivering broken products and they encourage Cakewalk to repeat the pattern of abandoning any commitment to fixing problems that they have already sold us.
best regards,
mike
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mudgel
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 07:58:23
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Well said mike mc.
A few years back I couldn't see what all the fuss was about with this glitch or another but as my skills have developed and I now use the deeper aspects of SONAR I find I'm up against one annoyance or another all the time.
I'm hanging around here but don't consider myself a regular SONAR user any more even though I'd like nothing more. It just doesn't cut it anymore and I'm sick of fighting it (SONAR) and facing the sanctimonious and self righteous "Well its working for me so what's your problem and don't forget all your specs".
I don't need help for work arounds I need a DAW that works and delivers what it says on the box I paid for.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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subtlearts
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 09:47:30
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Despite having waited on 8 and then gone for the 'buy 8 get 8.5 free' deal, and despite being really very impressed with a number of aspects of it, I am afraid I have to agree with basically everything above. I mean, the clip-envelope-keybinding thing, which I have a lot of trouble figuring out how it could possibly be more than a 1-hour (or less) fix for someone given the other things being developed, has been talked about openly on the forum, probably feature-requested 2 or 3 dozen times, and continually missing for 3 or 4 years (and versions) running. Huh?
The deeper automation bugs I am afraid Marah (and Untertow and others) is (are) probably right about - the current codebase is just too gummed up and patched together on this level to warrant fixing, and even if it were possible or practical it's impossible to market as a major new feature to entice new users - "Sonar X.x - now with automation that isn't fundamentally unstable and unusable!"
This does not diminish my appreciation for the work that does go into each update, and the drive to continue to provide a broad, flexible and competitive featureset in a tough market. But these long-standing, unaddressed and serious issues, openly and clearly described by some of the heavier users here for years, make it difficult to justify my continued support.
oh well. Back to work...
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keith
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 10:11:33
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subtlearts
the current codebase is just too gummed up and patched together on this level to warrant fixing,
I won't disagree with any sentiments regarding what's broken and why it needs fixin' ASAP... I will disagree with the above -- there is no piece of code in any software that can not be ripped out, layed out on the floor, and put back together. Look at what they did for 8.3... major optimizations to the thread scheduling. By any measure that is major surgery, but a necessary one. Cakewalk have shown in the past they're not afraid, from a technical perspective, to totally overhaul major componentry -- bussing architecture, MIDI editing, threading, etc. So it comes down to priority, IMO.
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vocalid
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 10:20:14
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keith
subtlearts
the current codebase is just too gummed up and patched together on this level to warrant fixing,
I won't disagree with any sentiments regarding what's broken and why it needs fixin' ASAP... I will disagree with the above -- there is no piece of code in any software that can not be ripped out, layed out on the floor, and put back together. Look at what they did for 8.3... major optimizations to the thread scheduling. By any measure that is major surgery, but a necessary one. Cakewalk have shown in the past they're not afraid, from a technical perspective, to totally overhaul major componentry -- bussing architecture, MIDI editing, threading, etc. So it comes down to priority, IMO.
yep, I totally agree with you, it's not like they have to reverse engineer the programm (Which I have done repeatedly to get old programs compatible at work). It's definitely "Don't want to" not "Can't" and I'm not blaming the coders; I guess this is the result of a marketing driven company structure (Perhaps came with Roland?)
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Fret Wizz
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 10:21:09
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I don't use layers because I don't use Loop Recording.
I always do 1 pass and then stop, rewind and start again till I get it right.
Comping seems like way too much work to me.
Remembering what's on what track and all the editing that entails.
It's easier to just rewind and record the track again.
I prefer to play than edit.
So therefore I've never come across this "envelopes in layers" bug.
Intrigued by the number of people complaining about it I had a look
at the help file entry on "Take Management and Comping Takes"
and came across this:
"Note 2: A multi-layer layer track has only one set of track automation envelopes."
Do you think this might have something to do with the problem?
Maybe track layers are meant to be comped to 1 track before you get too fancy with the
envelopes?
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Marah
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 11:08:38
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mike_mccue wrote << racing themselves to define a new product category... namely and all in one instrument that seems intended to be a band in a box for "emerging customers". >>
Whether or not that's CW's strategy, I think you've described the Sonar product perfectly: An all-in-one band in a box for "emerging consumers."
I was once an emerging consumer for what CW made. It throws a lot of powerful stuff at you. Especially at first. But the more I used it, the less usable it became, and the more I knew what I was doing, the more I realized that Sonar made doing it more difficult than it needed to be.
I started with 2XL. There's been lots of significant and useful things added to Sonar over the years, but at the most basic level, the program has not changed since I've been using it. Using it was never an especially elegant experience. But at this point my Sonar experience is like performing tasks and chores. Lots of procedures without flow.
I like to work at low volume. When the sound of Sonar's feature set calling out for overhauls started drowning out my work, I took my work elsewhere.
<<< ...anybody that chooses to work around this while cheering Cakewalk on for their latest efforts will eventually be sold out, disregarded, and treated as disrepectfully as those of us who currently recognize that delivering and NEVER FIXING a broken product is unacceptable.
Bummer. >>>
Yes Mike and that's what makes it especially sad. Someone in a recent thread said something to the effect that understanding and patience with CW was necessary because they only had so many people working for them. (Go tell them that on the Reaper forum.) It's that kind of customer CW is increasingly dependent on, so that's increasingly the kind of customer they develop for and market to.
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Marah
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 11:26:02
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<< It's a strategy that seems to be turning off existing customers faster than it's capturing emerging customers. >>
"Looks just like real drums."
That's how CW addresses its Sonar customers.
(And this is the forum software CW provides its customers to communicate with each other and to them about their products.)
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Keni
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 12:15:21
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vocalid
keith
subtlearts
the current codebase is just too gummed up and patched together on this level to warrant fixing,
I won't disagree with any sentiments regarding what's broken and why it needs fixin' ASAP... I will disagree with the above -- there is no piece of code in any software that can not be ripped out, layed out on the floor, and put back together. Look at what they did for 8.3... major optimizations to the thread scheduling. By any measure that is major surgery, but a necessary one. Cakewalk have shown in the past they're not afraid, from a technical perspective, to totally overhaul major componentry -- bussing architecture, MIDI editing, threading, etc. So it comes down to priority, IMO.
yep, I totally agree with you, it's not like they have to reverse engineer the programm (Which I have done repeatedly to get old programs compatible at work). It's definitely "Don't want to" not "Can't" and I'm not blaming the coders; I guess this is the result of a marketing driven company structure (Perhaps came with Roland?)
Sad to say but I agree... It's very obvious that since the incorporation of Roland as major player in Cakewalk's design, the direction and priorities have gotten muddled and re-directed. It's a shame as they have had such a wonderful ongoing relationship with their' users for so long... I can't believe that there are enuf hardware buyers out there to make this such a priority for cakewalk... But for Roland, well... they ARE a hardware company. I'm guessing that there are some users out there who found this upgrade to contain important things, but along with the inability to call it v9 is the obvious "we didn't do much" with this release. Added some pumped up P5 features along with actual P5 plugins (Not going anywhere as they stopped that development)... and left far too many known bugs in plane sight... So far the only thing of value to me in this release are the archive and freeze buttons I've been clamoring for since it's inception.... I'm waiting to notice any improvements to the engine but it appears to be running as 8.3.1... All these little add-ins are nothing compared to the proper running of the main editing features! C'mon Bakers.... Yell at the bosses and wake them up!!! Love Ya' Anyway... Keni
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UnderTow
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 14:26:38
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Keni
vocalid
keith
subtlearts
the current codebase is just too gummed up and patched together on this level to warrant fixing,
I won't disagree with any sentiments regarding what's broken and why it needs fixin' ASAP... I will disagree with the above -- there is no piece of code in any software that can not be ripped out, layed out on the floor, and put back together. Look at what they did for 8.3... major optimizations to the thread scheduling. By any measure that is major surgery, but a necessary one. Cakewalk have shown in the past they're not afraid, from a technical perspective, to totally overhaul major componentry -- bussing architecture, MIDI editing, threading, etc. So it comes down to priority, IMO.
yep, I totally agree with you, it's not like they have to reverse engineer the programm (Which I have done repeatedly to get old programs compatible at work). It's definitely "Don't want to" not "Can't" and I'm not blaming the coders; I guess this is the result of a marketing driven company structure (Perhaps came with Roland?)
Sad to say but I agree... It's very obvious that since the incorporation of Roland as major player in Cakewalk's design, the direction and priorities have gotten muddled and re-directed.
...
Keni
Naaah. It started way before that. I have been complaining about the type of features and upgrades since Sonar 3 I think when they added track icons. Nothing wrong with track icons but they should have fixed real functionality first. The whole 64 bit thing, both audio and Win x64, was also purely marketing driven. No one else was doing it and for good reason. Sure if you have the most advanced, most ergonomic, most efficient DAW on the market it makes sense to do this type of things but when your resources are already too stretched to fix the basic functionality of your flagship product, it is a very bad decision to try and be pioneers on a pioneering OS. But you know I don't believe the problem is the code base or the resources. I think they just don't get it. That DAWG advertising campaign was like? huh? The launch of the VS700 series product was errr... misjudged to say the least. They can't even get the forum software right. (I nearly wrote that in my first post but left it out. Funnily Marah made the same link). It is symptomatic of what is wrong at Cakewalk. It is so easy to grab any old PC, install Linux, apache and php and run a real forum, the fact that Cakewalk not only don't run proper forum software but somehow upgraded to a much worse version of the crappy forum software says it all to me. Not to mention that this bad ASP based software is more expensive than the better alternatives. IMNSHO Cakewalk is simply not (technically) sophisticated enough. Whether it is the less efficient audio engine, the fact that they use modules to build their DAW (see the explanation for the limitation on the plugin menus.  ), or the fact they are too busy with cosmetics and gadgetry rather than deeply flexible and powerful implementations of features, it all points to the same thing: Lack of sophistication from the developers. I don't know if this is a marketing decision: Aim for the masses or whether they really think this is the best way to improve Sonar... I suspect they just don't know any better but I don't really know and it doesn't really matter. I can only conclude one thing: I am not the target audience of Cakewalk Sonar. UnderTow
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RTGraham
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 15:01:31
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I'm just posting another entry to this thread to make a point.
I have, in the past, been extremely supportive in general, and vocally supportive on this forum, of Cakewalk as a company and of SONAR as a product. Up to version 6, I felt that user concerns, on the whole, received the attention they deserved, and that every effort was made to keep significant bugs from persisting through multiple versions.
I'm not sure what happened (perhaps it has something to do with corporate mergers / acquisitions, but that's just conjecture), but based on what I'm seeing here on the forum, it seems that more and more longtime and formerly loyal users are becoming disillusioned due to Cakewalk's failure to fix longstanding bugs and issues.
So here it is in big print:
I have not upgraded since version 6.
I have watched, with great interest, multiple forum threads about multiple issues that affect me. (Envelope editing being broken is one of them.)
At this point, based on what I'm still seeing in these threads, I see no reason whatsoever to spend any more money on a new version of SONAR.
The features that have been added simply aren't compelling enough to outweigh the bugs that haven't been fixed.
Maybe Cakewalk as a company is generating enough new sales from new users through the addition of new features that their new-user revenue outstrips their non-upgrade-user losses; but I can only imagine what's going to happen to their business model when enough of us just stop upgrading. At some point it's got to reach critical mass.
~~~~~~~~~~ Russell T. Graham Keys, Vocals, Songwriting, Production russell DOT graham AT rtgproductions DOT com www DOT myspace DOT com SLASH russelltgraham
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brundlefly
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Re:Please fix clip envelopes in track layers!
2009/09/22 16:06:01
(permalink)
"Note 2: A multi-layer layer track has only one set of track automation envelopes." Do you think this might have something to do with the problem? Maybe track layers are meant to be comped to 1 track before you get too fancy with the envelopes? Like you, I don't run into these problems, because I don't use the feature. But I try to give the benefit of the doubt that the people that do use the feature know what they are talking about. I think you are mistaking Track Envelopes for Clip Envelopes which this thread is about. Yes, each track has only one set of track envelopes, but every clip in a track, whether in a parallel layer, or sequential in a single layer can have its own independent envelopes. The capability is there and documented, but apparently is is not fully "sorted".
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
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