Anderton
 Several SONAR users who bought X3 Producer or Platinum have said that the collection of included plug-ins was a major factor.

A big part of why I bought the X1 Production Suite (coming from another DAW and needing something modern and able to provide full production capabilities from getting drums and other instruments into the mix and having a decent effect suite for post) was indeed all the included stuff. I didn't know the DAW from an arse in the ground aside from the all the stereotypical comments about it's quirks (so the core DAW started with low marks in my mind from that outsider viewpoint).
 
But after looking at what was out there, being on a tight budget and knowing that I no longer had a full band room filled with gear and musicians the package Sonar provided at the time was the one that could allow me to create full tunes, how I wanted, without having to spend any extra cash of third party stuff (back then it was SD3 for drums and DPro/Rapture/all the other stuff for sounds and the plethora of effects for mixing).
 
That wasn't the whole reason (this forum was actually a big factor... you guys have a good reputation and that has proven true and then some). So I built an overspec'd system just to handle/avoid where Sonar (at the time) may or may not have been lacking.
 
So yeah... that is indeed something that could definitely encourage folks to buy into the Sonar paradigm and the program has obviously become much more stable in the past few years (AND the workflow has become amazing for artists hacking through shiz themselves like I am).
 
 
THAT however does not mean starting to lock plugins that previously weren't locked is a good idea. It has nothing to do with that allure and in fact would almost have a chilling effect on those types of sales (as in those purchasing the DAW because of the effect/instrument suite).
 
It doesn't matter what the other companies may or may not be doing in that regard. If the Baker's want extra sales based on the included goodies then they should, whenever possible, leave those plugs unlocked. That gives Sonar an extra edge when people are considering their options.
 
Maybe someone just really wants to try out some of the synths or effects and figure "Hey... if I can use all this stuff in my DAW of choice AND I get to check out Sonar... yeah, maybe I will drop the $500 on it".
 
Then they may realize how cool Sonar is as DAW and get hooked. Bingo bango. New long term customer.
 
That may not account for a huge amount of sales but who knows? It could help and then those kids tell their friends and it spreads like a virus. Doesn't really hurt Cake in anyway to allow their own plugs to work in other DAWs and really helps out those of us who are going to buy/use Sonar anyway if and when we need to jump over into another DAW for specific tasks (like if a client demands it but we want to use the tools we know and like as much as possible).
 
Of course you can't force the third party people to play along if they don't want to and really I find it surprising XLN went on board with handing out full versions of their product (you'd normally expect they'd provide a light version to encourage upgrades like Overloud does... but those XLN guys are a little weird in this regard).
 
Now that brings it right back to the original statement I made. Provide the month to monthers with locked versions and those who paid for full memberships unlocked versions (where possible).
 
Am I just being insane again? Does this not seem like a rational and effective marketing strategy?
 
You gotta one up the competition. Cake does this in so many ways and this could defintiely be one of them. If they do something like this shout it from the bleeding rooftops! Like I said I was extremely surpised to find out some of my stuff worked in Reaper. I found out by accident really.
 
Meh... on a break and rambling.
 
Cheers.

Anderton

Beepster
THAT however does not mean starting to lock plugins that previously weren't locked is a good idea.

 
Susan G clarified that the Strum plug-in that previously wasn't locked remains unlocked. It's only the V2, which is considerably more sophisticated, that is locked to SONAR.

No, dude. I get that. I don't care about that. That's third party stuff and Cake has to adhere to whatever gets worked out. I don't even use that plug anyway and as I said I think it's in the best interest of those third party companies to actually lock their included versions to Sonar and even make them lite versions to encourage upgrade sales (like I said I thought it was kind of weird XLN handed out full versions but I guess they have their own marketing plan).
 
All I'm saying is the plugs that Cakewalk themselves have control over and/or if they can convince providers to allow for unloacked versions... well that would of course be beneficial to us users but also be a great way to boost sales and ensnare new customers who may otherwise not buy into Sonar.
 
Seriously not trying to be argumentative (although I understand that perhaps you are used to folks wailing on you for whatever the frack weird crap people do that for). I'm just saying on the outside looking in it seems like a good strategy.
 
Not trying to one up anyone or impose my own will. Just making some observations that could be beneficial to all parties. Believe it or not I used to be a bit of a business dude. A very unorthodox one but I could move product. It's the little things that can make or break a sale... yanno?
 
I have no complaints as is. I'm just sayin is all. The more money the Bakers rake in the more money there is for improving the product... so THAT is my selfish interest if there is any. Extra flexibility from what I own already is of course a wicked bonus too.
 
I'm on your side, brother. I just want everything to be wicked and awesome and useful. Right?
 
;-)

I think I am completely failing at making my point. It's about a competitive edge when there is zero (or very little) cost involved to creating that edge. It is also about exposing people to the brand and flagship product which, if more people were exposed to, would definitely see what we all see. It's a good product worth owning and staying current with.
 
Marketing 101. Get your foot in the door by any means necessary. Secure the existing customer base by making your product/service as useful as possible without cutting into your bottom line. If that means making your product semi compatible with competing products... who cares? Just as long as it keeps people coming back for more.
 
Meh... I'll drop it now. Didn't mean to start an argument. Gotta back to work (with Sonar BTW).
 
/convert

mettelus
Thanks for the clarification, Susan. I knew version 2 came with Foxboro, but was unclear if you had meant version 1 myself.
 
@Beeps With 3rd party plugins, things are locked based on the licensing agreement. There is nothing CW can do about those. Based upon posts I have read, there are those that pop into the forums on occasion, just to see what they can get with minimum effort (or for free). The one about signing up for Splat for a month just to get AD2 took the cake though (pun intended). Folks will gravitate to a DAW because of the DAW, not because of the plugins. (I think that was your point, but not sure).

Yes... I am not talking about the third party stuff (but if they want to provide that then sure). I am talking about in house stuff.
 
I should not have said anything because no one is actually reading my posts. What I have outlined eliminates the drive by scammers (locked plugs for month to month... unlocked for full membership but ONLY for the stuff Cake can control).
 
It's understandable I guess because we do get a lot of wankwads trying to pull a fast one but seriously... I am saying something VERy different here. Nothing to do with third party stuff (unless they are on board). Not giving stuff away to the "I'll pay for a month, get all this stuff and never come back" crowd.
 
I'm gonna try to not let it get to me that people think that me, Beepster, is suggesting that type of thing but really guys... read what I wrote.
 
If my posts keep being taken for something they are not I'm gonna have to delete them. C'mon, guys.

Anderton

Beepster
I think I am completely failing at making my point. Meh... I'll drop it now. Didn't mean to start an argument. Gotta back to work (with Sonar BTW).

I think I understand what you're saying. There is a precedent, in that Reason's instruments can be used with other programs via ReWire. There are plenty of people who have bought Reason and never even touched the sequencing/recording aspect, they just use the instruments. Not sure what percentage this represents of Reason's sales, but even if it's 5-10% that's a nice little boost to the bottom line.
 
I always wondered why Cakewalk didn't just lock plug-ins like the VX-64 and PX-64 to SONAR, and offer a line of VST plug-ins for sale to non-SONAR users. I suspect they don't want to have to deal with the support issues ("Hi, my VX-64 is acting strange with Samplitude 2.6 running on Windows XP, please fix this Cakewalk").

Yeah, you're getting it. And forget Rewire. Just straight up VSTs are easily scannable on any DAW worth its salt. Not even sure how the lock mechanisms work anyway but just let it fly free... for the stuff that Cake controls and ONLY for full members (to avoid fly by's who just want to take advantage of the monthly rate yet get all the perks).
 
So... stuff like Addictive Drums, Strum, Lounge Lizard, TH2, etc... that stuff would be out/locked no matter what unless they agreed to make their wares fully accessible compatible (like XLN have done which I still think is a little weird but whatever... nice perk).
 
Stuff like, and we'll start with stuff I KNOW Cake owns... the Cake Amp Sim, SD3, Beatscape, Rapture, Dim Pro, and so on... Pay for the full membership then you can use those plugs wherever you want. Pay month to month? You're out of luck UNTIL you pay for a full 12 months (then you get a new reg code or whatever and can unlock it and get the fully compatible version).
 
Not sure if Cake actually owns the Sonitus stuff or various other of the older school plugs but whatever they own gets included in this scheme. Anything they don't own outright they can approach the people that DO own it and see what they think would be fair to make it openly compatible (if at all). This could be through their existing marketing/compensation deals or whatever.
 
Then while marketing Sonar whatever IS fully compatible on other platforms gets published as a list so people can see what exactly they get with various versions of Sonar that they can use in their own hosts.
 
Might push them over the edge AND since they now have a modern copy of Sonar they may abandon their old DAW or at least keep their subscription current because they see what it can offer.
 
So yeah... that's what I'm sayin'.
 
I have no compalints and don't REALLY care because I already own all the stuff that is cross compatible so no biggie. Just thinkin' up stuff that could maybe benefit everyone.
 
Cheers and thanks for taking the time to understand what I was saying.
 
Sorry if that was unclear.

Well it would stay the same as always. You get what you paid for. Like I can still use R-Mix and VC64 and they still work so that full license payment entitles you to the full plug just like that. If your membership lapses and you go month to month you still own what you previously owned but would NOT get that new updated version.
 
Don't think anything really needs to change aside from the license/reg code for full and locked versions but if they are going to go through and start locking stuff anyway (which no one from Cake has said but that's what seems to be what is being discussed) then it could be done in this manner.
 
Full Sonar license = Full unlocked plugs with reg codes for that specific version.
 
Let your membership lapse = Keep what you own. No unlocked updates until you buy another full license. If you sign up month to month you get the LOCKED version until the full 12 months is paid for.
 
Really it's just two licenses. Now the code involved in locking things based on reg codes or whatever... that I don't know about. It could indeed be a massive pain in the arse but I'd imagine it's just a matter of auto generated keys and code and whatever.
 
Cost/Hassle vs. Benefit really which of course would be a large part of the bottom line equation.
 
Thanks for entertaining the premise anyway. I certainly don't expect my ramblings to affect the future of such things but hey... you never know.
 
Cheers.

BTW that would also provide a good opportunity for Cake to do another very useful thing I've wanted for a while now. That is set up separate downloads in our accounts for each individual plugin as opposed to these "suite" style bulk downloads. So everything included gets it's own unique ID and download and two versions.
 
Full Membership
 
Monthly
 
Each has their own reg code or s/n or whatever needs to be done. It would be a LOT of work at first parsing all the individual items out at first but once the core plugs are all sorted and tagged then it would be very simple to keep up with as new tools come down the pipe.
 
Meh... just pontifimicatin'.
 

mettelus
Keep the gloves up, lol

It is indeed rather unfortunate that the default position on stuff like this is that people are on the grift, but really we have seen a lot of that crap especially over the Melodyne and AD2 stuff so I get it. Just kind weird that people thought that's what I was trying to say.
 
Meh. Internet. Is what it is. I was just gonna yank my posts because they seemed to be causing confusion and strife... and that ain't good for no one.

Beep your posts are not causing grief. I understand your point of view and its a valid one. I disagree but so what. We are mature enough to handle differing view points expressed well.
 
I for for one like to hear what people think. I think CW does too.
 
 

Actually, Cake explained that not wanting to help pirates was the reason the pdf manuals are no longer available for download.  That may not have been the whole story, but it was the reason given.

BobF
Actually, Cake explained that not wanting to help pirates was the reason the pdf manuals are no longer available for download.  That may not have been the whole story, but it was the reason given.

Never heard that before. I remember being asked whether we wanted PDF or the current method of monthly updates to online docs.

I don't think unlocking plugins to work in other daws will increase loyalty to Sonar. Let's face it if folks are going to use those plugins in other daws they're not working in Sonar. It makes it just another grab for something free. The way it is now means of people use the plugins they're working in Sonar..

The fact that I may use another DAW isn't because I want to, it's usually because some circumstance forces me to use that particular DAW. For collaboration usually. So if that's the case the other party won't have the Sonar plugins anyway.

The fact that a few plugins are unlocked and work in other daws should be seen as a plus rather than a reason why others should also be. When I've bought other DAWS it's never been because of the included plugins. It's just not a selling point for those of us buying multiple DAWs. On the the other hand, a new user can buy a DAW like Sonar and be pretty much set to go, being able to start and complete projects from beginner to professional levels.

I will say however, that there's only been one packaged plugin that I want to use in every DAW and that's Sony's Wave Hammer. The absolute best brick wall limiter there is. DX only.

Thanks for the link. You know that was in reference to Rapture Pro not Sonar but I get the point. That's the only time I've ever seen that written about PDFs not being available because of piracy that's why I asked. I know Cakewalk's position has always been to only make PDFs available to owners not for general public download. Now I see a reason.

So I don't understand your own comment about unsung comments in the link above. As I mentioned that link was about Rapture Pro.

I wasn't questioning its factualness (is that even a word) just I hadn't seen the piracy comment it in writing before. In the context of the linked thread it was about asking for a PDF to a program that hadn't even been released at the time of the request.

aha, should have finished reading the thread before posting!