Susan G
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Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
Hi-
Something that occurred to me after the Strum Session update in Foxboro went from working as a VSTi in other DAWs to being SONAR-only is that with the membership model, maybe there won't be any more plugins that work in other DAWs, like Addictive Drums, Channel Tools, VX-64 Vocal Strip, PX-64 Percussion Strip, etc, etc, etc.
It would make sense, since people could pay for a month's membership and ostensibly get a plugin that would work "everywhere and forever," but OTOH, I'm not crazy about the idea of getting plugins with updates going forward that are exclusively locked to SONAR or can only be made to work in other DAWs with a paid upgrade.
What do you guys think?
Thanks-
-Susan
2.30 gigahertz Intel Core i7-3610QM; 16 GB RAMWindows 10 x64; NI Komplete Audio 6.SONAR Platinum (Lexington) x64
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 03:44:27
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Quite honestly Susan it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I have no need or desire to go outside of Sonar for anything other than CD burning. I'm sure others may have a different viewpoint but this is mine! 
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slartabartfast
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 04:02:34
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An excellent point. Cakewalk should be able to get a better price on third party plugs that are tied to Sonar, since the plugin developers would be able to sell a retail version to anyone who wants to use it in another application. Altering an existing plug to lock it to Sonar should be a pretty trivial programming exercise. I expect that even without the membership model, that lock in was going to be more common, as third parties got organized to offer Sonar-locked versions.
A full featured plug that is locked to Sonar may be a better deal than a lobotomized trial version for dedicated Sonar users. But even better for the plugin developers is to just alter their time and often feature limited demo versions so that they only work in Sonar for the duration of a subscription, phoning home to the Cakewalk servers at every update to see if you are still a member, or timing out a year after installation. I expect that Cakewalk would welcome the lock to Sonar, as it is an added incentive to renew, but they would probably resist a limited time plugin, since it puts their claim of ownership of Sonar (and presumably the associated plugs) after the paid up annual fee in jeopardy. A membership model for Sonar and a subscription model for the bundled plugins would be difficult to explain.
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Zargg
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 04:45:00
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Hi. I agree with Bristol_Jonesey.
I do everything in SONAR, except when making the occasional cd.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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mudgel
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 04:55:56
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I don't buy Sonar for any extras at all. Even if only the core program were available I would still upgrade it.
And not because I do everything in Sonar but I don't really care. To be honest while I can use the Sonar plugins I don't much. It also seems to be the norm these days.
None of the plugins included in Reaper, Samplitude, PT or Studio One work in other programs, and there's probably others.
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jpetersen
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 07:11:10
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I am struggling on whether to risk the drama of moving up from X3e
I value this kind of information. I don't enjoy surprises either.
Thanks for posting.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 08:56:46
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I would be super pissed if that ever happened for AD(2), Melodyne or TH2 since I bought upgrades for them. I MOSTLY use them in Sonar but have an Ableton license too and would expect to be able to use those plugs. Other than that, I'm not too bothered.
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BobF
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 09:25:05
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I think the whole process of tying plugins to a specific host is cheesy at best. I put up with because I'm going to use Sonar 95% of the time anyway, but it would be nice to be able to use the tools we pay extra for in a different host when we need to.
Having said that, I understand the reasoning. It's flawed reasoning, IMO, but I understand it. I use Sonar because it fits the way I use a DAW, not because I want to continue using a plug that was bundled with it.
Not a show-stopper for me, and it's nice to have the tools 95% of the time.
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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pwalpwal
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 10:05:05
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plugins are supposed to be a shared platform, all this locking in is just desperate business tactics (imo);
also, i buy a host as a host, not for the bloat that tags along;
also, also, i wouldn't expect an included plugin that worked across the board to suddenly become locked in after an update and without warning
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Brando
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 10:09:56
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mudgel
I don't buy Sonar for any extras at all. Even if only the core program were available I would still upgrade it.
And not because I do everything in Sonar but I don't really care. To be honest while I can use the Sonar plugins I don't much. It also seems to be the norm these days.
None of the plugins included in Reaper, Samplitude, PT or Studio One work in other programs, and there's probably others.
I agree with this. If I walk away from Sonar, I'll have to factor in the impact of finding alternatives for any plugs I use that are locked to SPlat. I think the inclusion of the plugins to Sonar is (and should be) secondary to the core functionality itself.
Brando
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 10:51:43
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I understand but the case of Strum Session mentioned above is a bit strange.
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mettelus
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 11:00:09
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Yeah, I do not get that one, especially since that came with X3. What bothers me more is a CW plugin that is locked to Splat. Ironically this is not all of them but was odd to see this opening things in X3.
A big win would be to make SONAR as "collaboration friendly" as possible, but even between SONAR versions this is painful.
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Beepster
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 11:22:40
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hmm... So the new Strum only works in SPlat (that's a ridiculous moniker BTW)?
Well, I had been under the impression that the majority of plugs that came with Sonar were locked to Sonar but I was pleasantly surprised when I installed another DAW (not to abandon Sonar but for other reasons I won't get into) and a huge amount of the Sonar stuff showed up in the VST options for the new DAW.
So yeah... it would really be nice if the plugins that should be proper, full VSTs/VSTis would continue to operate in this manner. Of course this poses a HUGE problem with the monthly memberships and whatever deals Cake has with those third party providers.
As mentioned folks could potentially get a $200 third party thingiemadoodle by just signing up for a month so of course the other vendors don't want that going on BUT for the people who pay full price should get what's coming to them like we are used to (full access to the plugs no matter what).
I don't think Cake or the vendors want to deny us that because that's the way it's worked for so long but it is ripe for abuse so SOMETHING needs to happen. This was the most confusing part of the new system for me because it did not make sense that someone paying $50 (or whatever the monthly sub is) got all that crud same as somene who pays for a full membership.
So instead of locking plugs to Sonar my suggestion is this...
Set it up so those who have a FULL 12 month membership get unlocked versions of the plugs. Those who pay month to month get the locked versions UNTIL they pay for a full consecutive 12 months. At that point they would receive a new download of the unlocked version (or whatever needs to happen... could be as simple as a registration key or something that unlocks what they already have installed).
Might be slightly more complex in some ways but actually a lot more fair and simpler to understand for the users in other ways. Also it would definitely encourage folks to purchase the full product or keep them paying their monthly fee to acheive the 12 month mark.
Knowaddimean? Does that make sense? Should this be mentioned to the Bakers?
They're smart dudes and probably have already thought of this but maybe not so I think that would be a pretty slick, solid way of hammering down this little oddity of the new system and likely make the third party cats happy.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 11:34:46
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pwalpwal
i wouldn't expect an included plugin that worked across the board to suddenly become locked in after an update and without warning
Is that what happened? Can you no longer use the version that came with a previous purchase outside of Sonar as before? Did the update do a search and destroy and remove the previous version from your system or inactivate it? If so it is a whole new benefit of the membership model. Cakewalk can begin to take away plugins they "sold" you previously, even if (because?) you are a current subscriber. That is different from providing you with a new version with improved features that is locked to Sonar. Just because a previous version worked universally does not imply that you have a contract to receive an updated version that does so as well. But if your old universal version is involuntarily disabled as a result of an upgrade, that does look like a taking.
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Anderton
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 12:22:17
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☄ Helpfulby robert_e_bone 2015/07/24 19:14:25
In DAW-land, bundled plug-ins that aren't locked to a host are the exception rather than the rule. I was always surprised when I could use SONAR plug-ins in other DAWs.
A feature request would be for Cakewalk-developed plug-ins to work on other platforms, as Cakewalk controls the fate of their plug-ins. However with third-party plug-ins, it's up to those companies to decide whether to lock or not. My assumption is that Cakewalk pays less for plug-ins that are locked to SONAR, which makes them more affordable to bundle. I think third-party companies would be reluctant to give the benefits of full ownership for a low price, if for no other reason than out of fairness to customers who paid full price and therefore would expect more in return for what they paid.
However, I do think that if you upgrade to a full version of a plug-in, then it should work in any host for which it is compatible. I'm pretty sure that's the case with most companies.
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Beepster
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 12:43:37
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Anderton
In DAW-land, bundled plug-ins that aren't locked to a host are the exception rather than the rule. I was always surprised when I could use SONAR plug-ins in other DAWs.
A feature request would be for Cakewalk-developed plug-ins to work on other platforms, as Cakewalk controls the fate of their plug-ins. However with third-party plug-ins, it's up to those companies to decide whether to lock or not. My assumption is that Cakewalk pays less for plug-ins that are locked to SONAR, which makes them more affordable to bundle. I think third-party companies would be reluctant to give the benefits of full ownership for a low price, if for no other reason than out of fairness to customers who paid full price and therefore would expect more in return for what they paid.
However, I do think that if you upgrade to a full version of a plug-in, then it should work in any host for which it is compatible. I'm pretty sure that's the case with most companies.
Ya... this is the thing I'm talking about. It would really suck for the third party guys like XLN who are providing their full program with Sonar to have people getting a full license by just signing up for a month when the intent was obviously for those who bought the full Sonar to get that stuff. Then there are the in house plugs that Cake has indeed graciously made available on other DAWs (for now) but again people could do a month and get those plugs (or maybe there is a crippling system that I am unaware of). But, and ask you this as a dude who knows the industry, do you think the idea of "lock the monthly version plugs... unlock the full member plugs" setup is feasible/a good way around this quirk of the new system? Of course third party companies are another matter and those deals gotta be hammered out on a case by case basis so that's separate BUT if they WANT to provide full versions to FULL members but NOT month to month members this seems like a simple and logical way to approach/market it. Ya?
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slartabartfast
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 12:45:29
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Anderton
However, I do think that if you upgrade to a full version of a plug-in, then it should work in any host for which it is compatible. I'm pretty sure that's the case with most companies.
A good moral guideline for Cakewalk plugins, and one that they could follow for their own plugs and synths. But if you mean it to apply to bundled plugs from other sources, that is even more of an issue between the end user and the plugin developer. Cakewalk would have virtually no leverage in compelling the plugin guys to offer an upgrade at all, let alone specifying that the discounted price they give to a Sonar version owner would include universal compatibility. Part of the value of offering to sell a Sonar locked license via Cakewalk is the hope that users will get hooked on it and buy the (usually more full featured) retail version. In other words it is part of their demo strategy. One that works on all hosts is an added value, and if they already have Sonar locked versions in their library, it costs little extra to sell those as an upgrade. Say a two tiered upgrade $100 to a full featured Sonar only version or $200 for one that works in every host. Until recently Cakewalk was essentially selling perpetual licensed versions of universally compatible plugins, albeit usually with limited features. One might expect that the plugin sellers would see the light, as CW has done, and put an end to what most companies currently do, if there is a better deal in it for them.
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Anderton
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 13:04:45
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slartabartfast
...Say a two tiered upgrade $100 to a full featured Sonar only version or $200 for one that works in every host.
I can't see companies wanting to develop and support too many different versions. Having a locked "lite" version and a full version that works in all DAWs would probably be the path of least resistance. I suppose if a company's market research showed that a significant number of SONAR users would upgrade to a SONAR-only full version but not a standard full version, they might change their minds. But they'd have to make enough to justify creating and supporting the SONAR-only version; and if they had deals with other manufacturers, for consistency they'd probably feel the need to do the same thing for other DAWs. If they also have several products, that adds a significant overlay of complication.
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pwalpwal
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 13:07:24
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slartabartfast
pwalpwal
i wouldn't expect an included plugin that worked across the board to suddenly become locked in after an update and without warning
Is that what happened? Can you no longer use the version that came with a previous purchase outside of Sonar as before? Did the update do a search and destroy and remove the previous version from your system or inactivate it? If so it is a whole new benefit of the membership model. Cakewalk can begin to take away plugins they "sold" you previously, even if (because?) you are a current subscriber. That is different from providing you with a new version with improved features that is locked to Sonar. Just because a previous version worked universally does not imply that you have a contract to receive an updated version that does so as well. But if your old universal version is involuntarily disabled as a result of an upgrade, that does look like a taking.
Susan G the Strum Session update in Foxboro went from working as a VSTi in other DAWs to being SONAR-only
hth
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Anderton
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 13:17:06
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I see both the original and updated versions installed in SONAR. Just to be clear...did the original work in other programs (sorry, never tried it) and if it did, does it no longer work in other programs? Or did the original work in other programs and still does, regardless of what's happening with Version 2?
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ampfixer
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 14:18:54
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I imagine the first version of strum was unlocked because it was at the end of its life and the company didn't care. Now with version 2 they want to recoup as much development cost as they can.
I'm fine with Sonar having proprietary plugs because Sonar is where I use them.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 14:28:12
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Honestly I think Sonar is the one who loses money when people stop subscribing after a month, not the companies selling the licenses.
I mostly don't mind when stuff is locked though I do consider it a bonus when it isn't. And when I'm paying money to upgrade plugs or buy expansions I expect to be able to use them in other DAWs as well.
EDIT: actually, since we do get these questions sometimes, is it actually very clear on purchase which plugs are Sonar-bound and which aren't?
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/24 19:51:28
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I believe that Sonar provides the extra plugins in partnership with the other companies to provide nice extras - to sweeten the deal for those interested in getting such extras, and it also gives companies a nice way to introduce a bunch of folks to their product lines.
In doing this, Sonar is able to offer these extras without adding significant cost to Sonar. I have gone out and either upgraded some plugins or reviewed and sometimes purchased other plugins from companies that introduced me to their plugins through being included in some version of Sonar.
And, even if a given plugin is tied to work in Sonar only, or some other DAW only, other than having to build tracks using those plugins in the DAW they are tied to, one could always bounce those tracks for purposes of doing some editing or tracking in some other DAW, bringing the edited tracks back into Sonar to continue. It is by no means a perfect solution, but since they don't add much, if any, cost to the purchase price of a Sonar license, I am very happy to have whatever extras they can throw into a given version of Sonar I am contemplating purchasing.
My son and I also purchased FL Studio, and a bunch of the plugins in there only work in FL Studio - I would imagine this is true of most, if not all, of the major DAW products on the market. We both like some of the work flow in sequencing in FL Studio, and sometimes my son starts projects in FL Studio and then moves them to Sonar for the heavy lifting. Many people have more than one DAW product, and there is nothing wrong with that. All of the software is simply a collection of tools, and it simply gives folks additional options at creating projects.
I have an Intel CPU, but not an Intel motherboard, and other computer parts from a whole host of vendors, and nobody cares - all of the parts are just tools that together create the bigger picture - the whole PC. All of the various plugins in Sonar are sort of like that, and they all are part of the bigger picture - the software and hardware that is a robust audio engineering suite that is Sonar on a monster PC.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Susan G
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/25 02:20:31
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pwalpwal
slartabartfast
pwalpwal
i wouldn't expect an included plugin that worked across the board to suddenly become locked in after an update and without warning
Is that what happened? Can you no longer use the version that came with a previous purchase outside of Sonar as before? Did the update do a search and destroy and remove the previous version from your system or inactivate it? If so it is a whole new benefit of the membership model. Cakewalk can begin to take away plugins they "sold" you previously, even if (because?) you are a current subscriber. That is different from providing you with a new version with improved features that is locked to Sonar. Just because a previous version worked universally does not imply that you have a contract to receive an updated version that does so as well. But if your old universal version is involuntarily disabled as a result of an upgrade, that does look like a taking.
Susan G the Strum Session update in Foxboro went from working as a VSTi in other DAWs to being SONAR-only
hth
Just to clarify, the Strum Acoustic Session version 1.0 that shipped with SONAR 2015 still works in other DAWs, but the updated version doesn't and specifically says "SONAR EDITION" on the GUI. I guess I should have said "Strum Session 1.0 continues to work in other DAWS, but Strum Session 2.0 is locked to SONAR." Sorry for not being more clear. -Susan
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Susan G
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/25 02:33:43
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Beepster
hmm... So the new Strum only works in SPlat Yes, but the original continues to work in other DAWs. Beepster
Well, I had been under the impression that the majority of plugs that came with Sonar were locked to Sonar but I was pleasantly surprised when I installed another DAW (not to abandon Sonar but for other reasons I won't get into) and a huge amount of the Sonar stuff showed up in the VST options for the new DAW. Some will show up in VST lists, but a lot of them won't work when you try to load them. -Susan
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Susan G
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/25 02:37:40
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Anderton
I see both the original and updated versions installed in SONAR. Just to be clear...did the original work in other programs (sorry, never tried it) and if it did, does it no longer work in other programs? Or did the original work in other programs and still does, regardless of what's happening with Version 2?
The original worked in other programs and still does. Version 2 doesn't work in other programs and the GUI specifically says "SONAR EDITION." -Susan
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Susan G
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/25 02:47:15
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BTW, I'll admit that one of the reasons I went with SPlat was that it included an unlocked version of Addictive Drums.
-Susan
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Susan G
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/25 02:57:23
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Beepster
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/25 06:36:41
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Susan G
Some will show up in VST lists, but a lot of them won't work when you try to load them.
-Susan
Interesting. I just took for granted they would work and the ones I tried did but I think I'm going to explore this more. Mind you this experiment would be with Reaper and X1 Production Suite because those are what I have installed on my crummy laptop (specifically for trying stuff like this out... I can't do any real work on it). I only have Sonar (X1 PS through to SPlat) installed on my actual DAW. Well I've got Pyro on there too but that doesn't count. And now I just remembered... Pyro has some unique plugins included that don't seem to show up in Sonar but maybe I should check the VST scan paths. Maybe they are stored somewhere weird. I wouldn't mind having the Noise Reduction plug from Pyro in Sonar. It's not great but it's still useful.
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Anderton
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Re: Plugins exclusive to SONAR membership?
2015/07/25 11:33:58
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Susan G
Some will show up in VST lists, but a lot of them won't work when you try to load them.
Sometimes plug-ins will even be "disqualified" during the VST scanning process...you'll get some kind of error message that says "This plug-in requires [etc.]," or a plug-in can even cause a crash during the scan (the "exclude" option in plug-in manager is very helpful to deal with this). Tying a plug-in to a program supposedly gives a competitive advantage. A good example is the "Quadrafuzz" plug-in I designed for Steinberg. When it was introduced, it was for sale and compatible with any VST host. The latest version works only in Cubase 8, and a separate plug-in for sale is no longer available. Now, I doubt that anyone will think "I was going to buy a Pro Tools HD system, but I'm going to buy Cubase 8 instead because it has a V2 Quadrafuzz." However put enough exclusive things in a program, and it could tip someone into a buying that program. Several SONAR users who bought X3 Producer or Platinum have said that the collection of included plug-ins was a major factor.
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