Beagle

Willy Jones [Cakewalk
]

What's troubling is the proliferation of threats of violence. From total strangers to total strangers.

I agree and I also think this is pretty upsetting - people don't always have to agree but I'd like to think that we can ask questions and learn from each other without threatening each other or name calling

I just don't even understand that mentality anyway.  what possible resolution could come from name calling and threat of violence?  [shakes head]

beag,the reason you dont understand it is the same reason i dont understand it..were not like that so how do we know?

MNorman


What's troubling is the proliferation of threats of violence.  From total strangers to total strangers. 

I keep seeing posts referring to this but I don't think I've ever seen it.

Reputation points don't work on forums.
I remember the Smite Wars of January 2007 on another forum.....the place degenerated into a total bun fight.

twigman - I've seen it numerous times, especially lately.  I could go find examples if you want, but I'd rather just not even bring them back to anyone's attention.  it has been happening and it was even quite funny to me occassionally since it's so ridiculous for someone in Seattle to threaten someone who is in Miami with physical violence (not the actual places - just examples).

Reputation points don't work on forums.

That's why it is not a 'forum' per say but a place to ask questions and get answers.  I think the model works really well for Stack Exchange - you rarely if ever see name calling or threats.  They might exist for sure but folks with enough rep have the power to flag them and after a certain amount of flags the comment or answer is automatically removed - in this sense the community polices itself.

Willy Jones [Cakewalk
]

Unfortunately, the most effective way to do this would be very labor-intensive for you guys... constant monitoring of forum traffic and immediate (or as immediate-as-possible) response to *any* behavior that's abusive toward the other persons on the forum - and encouraging mutual respect (or at least good manners in the lack thereof).

100% agree with you - I just wish it was easier to do and more manageable, pulling a Customer Service or Tech Support rep off the phone would be bad and we can't exactly ask a dev to stop writing code.

Another idea (and I'm really just throwing this out there for pondering - not saying we would do it) but what if we made some of the community members forum moderators as a stop gap?  We'd have to define parameters for moving/locking/editing/banning and probably setup a private 'moderators only forum' to address any 'what should I do with thread Y' questions but does anyone think that would help the situation?

I think that would be an excellent idea. 

I've used forums with user/moderators and it works well.

As someone who's recently been threatened to have his skull smashed in ... I'd like to comment.

How about the people who are already moderators here, actually start moderating?

I know it sounds crazy but follow me on this ...

For example ... if someone reports abuse, respond to it? Even if it's a week later? Even if you feel both parties are to blame, at least respond in some way? You find the time to come here and discuss what to do about these hostile situations, but don't have the time to respond when called upon for help at the time they happen?

I have a new rule I roll by, I mentioned it to Beagle a while back in a thread and it's working quite well. I don't get involved in anything here anymore. If it offends me, I ignore it, and if it's a blatant TOS violation that I personally feel is so offensive I can't ignore it, I report abuse and put it on the moderators lap to deal with or not.

Bub.

if someone reports abuse, respond to it? Even if it's a week later? Even if you feel both parties are to blame, at least respond in some way?

We do this when possible but let's be honest ANY action that a Cakewalk employee takes is never treated as impartial.  We upset one person by asking them to behave nicely and it blows up in our face and we lose a customer.  It's a much trickier line to walk than you might think - personally I think a decision to lock, ban or delete that came from either a community vote or a user jury would be received much better more often than not.

You find the time to come here and discuss what to do about these hostile situations, but don't have the time to respond when called upon for help at the time they happen?

No offense - and I don't think you meant this in anything but a constructive way BUT that kind of tone is what makes it hard for us to effectively moderate when we are constantly on the defensive.  For example - if a dev wanted to participate in a discussion with users it instantly turned into a 'why didn't you guys do it this way' and 'post your source code' to prove it 'how big is yours, I made a hello world application in python so I know everything there is know about developing for SONAR'  (OK that is an extreme case but I think it illustrates my point).  Even right now - you're asking me to explain my day to you, I don't mind doing it here is a rough breakdown so far:

• 4 hours today answering Customer Service emails
• 1.5 hours in product planning and an IT-related meeting
• .20 hours on the forum
• I went to the gym for an hour from 2-3 (this is when the support line closes for lunch)
• It's only 4:30 so I still have another 1.5 hours left . . ..

So what do you really want - me to justify my day to you?   I hope that it explains where I'm coming from at least - I can't speak for all of the moderators but I have definitely heard similar sentiments.  It is very hard for us to participate in the forums if we're always having to defend every action, word and even avatar in some cases.  Many of us would actually like to participate in the forums more but if its hard for us to participate we spend less time here - thus less moderation happens.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time but rather shine the light on what it can be like from inside the bakery.  I am really interested in hearing though how folks would feel about a more community-moderated system whether that is through a better point system or user-moderators.  This is your community - sure we may host it, but ultimately it's yours.

Beagle

Willy Jones [Cakewalk
]

Unfortunately, the most effective way to do this would be very labor-intensive for you guys... constant monitoring of forum traffic and immediate (or as immediate-as-possible) response to *any* behavior that's abusive toward the other persons on the forum - and encouraging mutual respect (or at least good manners in the lack thereof).

100% agree with you - I just wish it was easier to do and more manageable, pulling a Customer Service or Tech Support rep off the phone would be bad and we can't exactly ask a dev to stop writing code.

Another idea (and I'm really just throwing this out there for pondering - not saying we would do it) but what if we made some of the community members forum moderators as a stop gap?  We'd have to define parameters for moving/locking/editing/banning and probably setup a private 'moderators only forum' to address any 'what should I do with thread Y' questions but does anyone think that would help the situation?

I think that would be an excellent idea. 

What Beagle said.

Hey Willy,

How about as a test you appoint a couple of user-moderators to just one part of the forums? Maybe the CH would do as a beta.  There are plenty down here that are well known and have leveled up gained plenty of rep points* who are responsible enough for the job.









*(post count matters not to Bapu, ThatOrEddd)

Cheating eh?

On the note of recruiting moderators.  A golden rule is never appoint somebody who wants the job, unless you want tyranny to prevail.  You already know who'd make good candidates approach them first.

The other thing on this type of setup where you are dealing with paying customers is to set up a moderator account to be anonymous like 'Patrol Car 1', rather than using a personal login just to indicate to the users this is somebody doing a job rather than making a name for themselves.

Willy Jones [Cakewalk]
For example - if a dev wanted to participate in a discussion with users it instantly turned into a 'why didn't you guys do it this way' and 'post your source code' to prove it 'how big is yours, I made a hello world application in python so I know everything there is know about developing for SONAR'  

Someone made a "Hello World" application in Python???  Wow!  Shirley they must work for the bakers by now!  Hehe...
 
(I've been in the IT world for a stupid number of years and, to be honest, I don't remember when the whole "Hello World" phenomenom first started...  At least you don't have to use a feather duster to get rid of the dead moths stuck to the vacuum tubes any more - where the term "debugging" came from.)

Bub

Jonbouy

A golden rule is never appoint somebody who wants the job, unless you want tyranny to prevail.  You already know who'd make good candidates approach them first.

Sheesh. Why don't ya'll just come out and say you don't want me around.

I'm a big boy, I can take it.

If I didn't want you around that's what I would have said.

I'm a big boy I say what I mean.

My comment you quoted comes from many years of experience of administrating soccer forums in the UK all with similar amounts of traffic to here. 

Nothing personal meant by it at all.

craigb

Willy Jones [Cakewalk]
For example - if a dev wanted to participate in a discussion with users it instantly turned into a 'why didn't you guys do it this way' and 'post your source code' to prove it 'how big is yours, I made a hello world application in python so I know everything there is know about developing for SONAR'  

Someone made a "Hello World" application in Python???  Wow!  Shirley they must work for the bakers by now!  Hehe...
 
(I've been in the IT world for a stupid number of years and, to be honest, I don't remember when the whole "Hello World" phenomenom first started...  At least you don't have to use a feather duster to get rid of the dead moths stuck to the vacuum tubes any more - where the term "debugging" came from.)

Hey!!!...(as opposed to straw....)...Leave my vacuum tubes aalllloooooooonne!!