Poorly Chosen Rant and Clarification and apology.

A couple of days ago, I posted a thread complaining about some crashes and dumps I've had.
 
I thought I was clear in something I said very specific - "I sent the crash reports along with error codes as I was prompted to do when the crashes happened." When I made that post, I couldn't give you specifics because I thought Cakewalk would be addressing it and I didn't note anything. Hence why I asked if I had to keep a note book. I made an observation concerning the updates. The way I understood one of the videos that Cakewalk released was in those updates we would get new features. Instead, it seems like the software is still in development and the  updates make it a work in progress. Yesterday I had another crash. It was pretty simple. I closed a project, it asked me if I wanted to save it, I clicked yes and the error pops up and the prompt asks me if I want to report it, and I did. That was a new one. Last night, I was remixing an old song. I removed everything off of all channels and buses and started over. As I started adding plugins, I start losing sound of different tracks and going out of time. This only happens as I'm adding instruments or plugins no report was created for this. I know bugs are in every software product there is. But, just to be flamed about it because "you" didn't have any problems or you think because the software is stable for you, then there is no possibility I could have any problems. My post was more out of frustration and observation than anything, and posting without consideration of the fallout deserves my apology.
 
However, what my post didn't deserve was the trolling and the flaming that it got. If people can't interact or relate to others in a respectful way without the trolling (I could think of a lot more descriptions), then it tells me about some of the people that are on here.  So why would I interact with that? That is why I didn't communicate on it any longer. And knowing how people are from another profession I had years ago, some of you will only read what you want to get out of it and do some more trolling.
 
I was frustrated because at the time I had my save feature turned off and I kept losing stuff and then redoing it.  I don't expect anyone to be aware of it because you don't know me, but this is only a hobby for me. I'm just a middle aged fat man who likes to make music, if I feel like I have wasted money, I get cranky and whine. I have had know training and this all started two years ago when I got a  SONAR 8.5 LE disk that came with Roland's BR800 digital recording. It's addictive hobby.
 
My apology is for the negativity and non clarity that was created. However not for the criticism on it's face. There are two other DAWs I've used and never experienced any issues like I have with SONAR (observation). 
 
I would like say that I received a message from an individual that was really respectful by just communicating with me instead of the other stuff and I appreciate that.
 
I use an HP with Windows 8.1, 8gb memory, 1tb  hard drive, 2tb Toshiba external hard drive, i5 intel core. I will be adding another 8gb in memory. My audio interface is a Presonus AudioBox 44VSL, and I use an ART tube mic pre. I run my Line 6 POD HD600 through the mic pre.  I also use WAVES gold bundle and sometimes Native products.
 
Thanks.

JohnBonesDoe
However, what my post didn't deserve was the trolling and the flaming that it got. If people can't interact or relate to others in a respectful way without the trolling (I could think of a lot more descriptions), then it tells me about some of the people that are on here.  So why would I interact with that? That is why I didn't communicate on it any longer. And knowing how people are from another profession I had years ago, some of you will only read what you want to get out of it and do some more trolling.
 

You dont have to apologize for anything.  This forum is heavy with "Sonar Defenders", some of them have even been empowered by Cakewalk with mod-like priviledges.  Because mod priviledge has been handed out like candy, this forum is VERY "top heavy".  Youve got a *large* inner circle of "thought police" and a large number of independent thinkers who are trying to cope with the idiosyncrasies of the software, and who (rightly) feel that by bringing visibility to problems it may provide faster solutions (bug fixes, etc).
 
I have seen mobbing many times on the internet and several times here (have once been the target myself), but have never participated in mobbing on anyone.  I cant imagine how low the self-esteem of these people must be that they would gain anything from anonymously piling on someone who is frustrated and having a problem.   In their minds they are "doing Cakewalk a solid by protecting the reputation of the software, the developers, thier livlihood, etc"  But they are also suppressing dialog and the valid concerns of people who paid good money.
 
It was a shock to me how intolerant this forum is.  I think the software is great, but the software would be better if they dropped a bomb on the forum. I really think the forum has a very unprofessional feel.  If someone spends $500 on software they should not be a second class citizen in the support forum.
 
 

AT
But we have all kinds here

 

Ultimately this was my concern when the first thread was posted, as the reception to a new forum user (regardless if how) requires a bit of decorum, especially from anyone carrying a "title." Please bear in mind that these forums are public record and many read posts without ever typing one.

A nice adage from my days if old is "One f* up us worth 100 attaboys." This community is a great group of people, but bad press affects reputation collectively.

Just food for thought anyway...

The very first response to that thread was what I expected to see... After that it degraded quickly and turned into embarassment (for me anyway).

Was that other thread removed entirely? It will not come up on my phone at all now.

Paul P
 
 I was once more disappointed to see a newcomer treated to the usual ridicule and psychological analysis of his/her character by several, including forum hosts and above.  Then more discussion about how it's certain the person was a troll because they haven't reappeared within a very few hours.
 
I wish we could just presume that a newcomer is a normal person, no matter what they say (unless, of course, they're pushing kitchen cabinets).
 
I find it a little strange that the thread has been completely wiped.

That is the MO of this forum.  "You're with us or your against us."  It's standard practice to assume everyone that doesn't praise Sonar is a troll.  I was really sad to see Craig jump on that band wagon.  You see it in the "help" you get most of the time.  The automatic conclusion is that it's not Sonar's fault and problems are "worked" from that bias.  Many people are frustrated and inarticulate but I think the actual cases of deliberate "trolling" are very rare.  It seems that here its "guilty before proven innocent". 

hdmi audio...also cause issues through video cards, and other audio devices ...cpu irq sharing? or interuption?...might want to disable that..one day...if not already done.
 

Hello,
 
In response to this:
"It was a shock to me how intolerant this forum is.  I think the software is great, but the software would be better if they dropped a bomb on the forum. I really think the forum has a very unprofessional feel.  If someone spends $500 on software they should not be a second class citizen in the support forum."
 
This has not been my experience for the most part. In fact (for me) this is one of the most tolerant forums that I have engaged in. And not just tolerant.. Full of supportive , resourceful personalities. Does it show signs of frustration and react to it .. Yes.. Are there instances where thoughts are misconstrued and misunderstandings take place. ... Yes.. Have emotions waxed high and showed up in posts and responses Yes. Is that an accurate critique of a forum effectiveness and purpose.. No.. but it does entail the essence of human nature.. Put people together and things happen.
 
With that said my experience is that this forum for the most part is most helpful and an important resource. Here people that I don't know help and engage because we share the similar virtue of a love and passion for music and its production. Even the Staff at Cakewalk and its affiliates gets involved on both ends of the spectrum of drama (Creative folk can have a flair for the dramatic no? ). Is it always "great" no.. At times entertaining ... "absolutely"... deserving to be "bombed".. Quite extreme and over the top and I think not.. My two Pence... 

200bpm
...and who (rightly) feel that by bringing visibility to problems it may provide faster solutions (bug fixes, etc).

 
This has happened often, many fixes have been implemented specifically due to user feedback that was presented in a way where something could be done with the information. I've started threads about problems I've encountered and asked other people to confirm; many times, the info I presented wasn't enough for Cakewalk to reproduce the problem, but the info that others added DID provide enough data and fixes could be made. That is one of the main values of a forum.
 
I think a lot of what may be seen as "intolerance" is probably closer to "impatience." There are so many threads that have started out with "SONAR broken!! Filled with BUGS!!' where the problem has been pilot error or something like wi-fi or power-saving features enabled on a laptop, but people came here and ranted instead of just spending a minute with Google and finding the solution. That's understandable; we all want answers NOW. But for those who are professionals or veteran users and need answers to problems that actually ARE related to SONAR, the "rant" posts just increase the noise-to-signal ratio and serve no useful purpose. They don't contribute to others' knowledge, or present enough info to allow for assistance. In that respect, they do a disservice to those who have also spent their hard-earned money on this software.
 
Ultimately I think the solution is a checklist of "Before you start a thread about a problem, check the following" and it would include all the basic non-SONAR-related sources of problems - disable unneeded drivers, don't expect miracles with ASIO4ALL, disable wi-fi, check for updated interface drivers, why graphics card drivers matter, plug your interface into the same USB port each time, how to check whether your devices exceed MIDI port limits in Windows, etc. 
 
We all understand that computer-based systems, software, and SONAR can be frustrating sometimes. So can people in forums, including users and moderators. And it's possible to jump to wrong conclusions based on inadequate data, which is why I apologized. But the important issue of this thread is a finding a solution to JohnBonesDoe's problem, because I don't think he's having the same kind of experience as most SONAR users and we can probably figure out why.
 

The outcome of a post will be due to how that post is perceived. A lot depends on the approach an OP makes. No one is so wise that they are able to sit back and read what is in the heart of another. We can only judge by what is laid before us. One may ask why should we judge another?  We do so all the the time. Its part of being human. We always come to a conclusion even if its based on faulty information. This forum is no different from the wider world except here people give of their time in order to help other users.  Often they put a high premium on what they do because it is important to them. A poster has to view this forum as they would any gathering. You don't attack on first appearance. That in any culture is rude. A response that becomes an attack is unfortunate but understandable.
 
I have through out the years seen enormous goodness on displayed here. A welcome to a new member is often the first words given out. To think that a forum can always be so dispassionate that a poster ranting as an introduction will get a welcoming response is unreasonable.
 
Can we do better? I think we can. We should also alert new posters that there are easy ways to begin a dialog that will engender good will and a pleasant time.  This forum thrives on dialog, a giving and taking. When a poster leaves no room for dialog bad things happen.  

Alright... I was in that thread but now we have details. That's the way to do things.
 
You say you use an HP. So is this one of those prebuilt/preloaded dealies?
 
If so those are crammed with intrusive bloatware and Windows is usually set up in it's usual ridiculous way.
 
First thing to do is remove any and all bloatware from the system that you do not intend to use. Use a program called CCleaner to do this because much of that sutff can be extremely stubborn.
 
Second go into your Control Panel and get to the Power Mangament options (sorry... I have never used Win8 nor do I intend to. I am on 7 so you'll have to find this stuff on your own or ask the other members here).
 
You absolutely must set your power settings to Performance. You are likely on Balanced or Energy saver or whatever. This turns things on and off to save power but the this is NO good for any streaming data stuff like audio or video. More specifically you should go into your advanced settings and make sure your...
 
1) Hard and/or Solid State drives are Always On or set to max or whatever
 
2) Your USB ports are set to NEVER fall asleep
 
3) Your CPU and pretty much everything else is set to NEVER fall asleep
 
4) Windows is set to NEVER fall asleep or dim the screen or do ANYTHING without you telling it to do so.
 
You want everything going full blast at all times. If you use the system for other stuff and do not like that behavior then I think you can create a seperate user account for a more conservative power management setup but any time you are doing audio you want EVERYTHING awake and ready at ALL times.
 
Now let's take a look at your interface. PreSonus makes decent stuff. Not sure about your interface but hopefully it uses ASIO drivers. If not (read your manual to find out) then you shoudl think about investing in one that does. I recommend Focusrite products and personally use a Scarlett 18i6 which is rock solid.
 
Anyway... if your PreSonus has the option for ASIO be sure it is actually using the ASIO driver. You do this in Sonar's Edit > Preferences > Audio-Devices section.
 
Sonar works best in ASIO mode.
 
What antivirus are you using? Those prebuilt systems usually come with Mcaffee or Norton trials. They suck for audio and they kind of suck for AV too. You have to make a decision whether you want to use this system for general internet stuff AND audio or if you can use the system exclusively for audio. If it is the latter I recommend removing the pre installed AV and installing Microsoft Security Essentials. MSE is much less resource intensive and offers good protection. I have heard Win 8 uses Defender as an AV but I would really trust that.
 
Either way and no matter what AV you are using taking the system offline and disabling the antivirus' "Real Time Protection" will make things run a LOT smoother. However you can also simply add any and all Cakewalk and audio related files and programs to your AV's whitelist. People say this doesn't matter anymore but I notice a massive performance boost when I disable real time protection. I also do not use my DAW for any online stuff aside from snagging software updates so whatever... balance your performance and security needs accordingly.
 
You should also figure out what kind of hard drives you have. SSD (Solid State Drive) for you program drive is great. If the system has Hard Disk Drives though and they came preloaded you have to see how fast they are and hopefully they are not the dreaded "Green" drives.
 
Ideally you want at least 7200rpm drives. Green drives, even if they are fast, are designed to fall asleep to save energy and are not ideal for audio. If you find out your drives are low speed or green drives you should consider replacing them. As I said SSD drives are gonna work but are more expensive. For HDD replacements you'll wanna snag stuff like Barracudas or Caviar Black drives (do a google search to learn more about those).
 
Finally be sure to check your interface and disk drive buffer setting. You can check your interface buffers via the interface software (or sometimes via the ASIO panel button in Sonar Preferences but that isn't as reliable... better to ust figure out how to open your interface software). For recording you want low latency so you set the buffers low (if you expereince dropouts or crashes there are tricks within the project you can do such as freezing tracks but that bridge can be crossed later) and for EVERYTHING else such as editing, mixing, exporting or whatever you crank those buffers.
 
For you your hardrive buffers, in Sonar go to Edit > Preferences > Audio - Sync and Caching then increase your Record and Playback buffers (default is 256 IIRC... turn them up to 512 or more as needed).
 
You can keep an eye on your CPU, RAM and HDD usage by inserting the Performance Module into the Control Bar in Sonar. Look it up in the manual to see how it works (this post is already wicked long so... whatevs). That will show you what is being maxed out and give you an idea what you may need to tweak, freeze or simply not do.
 
There... tons of info for you. Get busy.
 
Also if you want more info on system optimization I personally used the Sweetwater System Optimization Guide (google it). There are a couple things in that that do not play nice with Sonar (file caching I think) but the tips about making hardware not fall asleep and disabling startup programs is gold.
 
Cheers and good liuck.

John
Can we do better? I think we can.

Me too. In any communications snafu, it takes two to tango.
 
We all learn because if we don't, then we don't improve.
 
Obviously the OP has learned that it's probably not a good idea to come into a forum and rant without asking for assistance, and from now on I'm going to assume rant posts are from frustrated newbies and not agenda posters from competitors.

jatoth
"A response that becomes an attack is unfortunate but understandable."
 
Answering "rudeness" with more rudeness (attacking the poster as a troll), does not serve the forum or it's members.
It just makes the responder feel like he is better than the troll.
Sorry John, I don't understand it. I do understand the frustration, and I do understand the desire to tell someone he is a jerk. But, giving in to those desires does not enhance the community. It only boosts ones ego.
 
Thanks Bob, for reaching out to the OP, I don't think he would have ever come back if you didn't.

If this were a perfect world things would be much better. I'm not so perfect that I can't understand the responses of some on the OPs original thread. We also need to be tolerant of those that did speak out against the rant too.
 
It goes both ways. We can learn from this or we can dig in on our positions never letting the other any room for compromise.