Popping & clicking - Loop construction

There are a few causes for pops and crackles and such, so let me ask you a couple of questions:

1.  What driver mode are you using? (ASIO, WDM?)  Check this in Edit>Preferences>Audio>Playback and Recording

2.  What is the Sample Rate set to in Sonar?  Check this in Edit>Preferences>Audio>Driver Settings


3.  Also, what is your reported total round trip latency?  Preferences, same window as in number 2.


4.  For your audio interface, what Sample Rate is set there?  Also, what is the ASIO Buffer Size set to?


Bob Bone

Have you done any system optimization for audio? Like turning off power management features, disabling start programs... anything like that? 

Don't know anything about loop construction mode but it sounds like the edited areas aren't crossfaded.

eg- when you split a track into sections and change the volume of one section there will be a click at the object border. You need to use the fades menu to effect a fade or crossfade. 

That latency you reported is crazy high.

Mine is running at something like 5 ms, I think - I run 44.1 / 24-bit, with an ASIO buffer size of 128

Bob Bone

On the graphic display in the DPC Latency Checker I have a row of yellow columns hovering around the 1000 µs and then red columns at various intervals going to 16000 us and above. I don't really know what I'm looking at but I would guess this is a program running in the background?

Well, we are certainly onto some stuff that you will need to get resolved, so even though there is not a solution at the moment, this is indeed progress.

There is another program called Latency Mon, that provides much more detailed information on things running in the background.

There are others here in the forum with much more knowledge of it, but I will look up info and post back with it shortly.

In addition, if you are somewhere in the US, I would like to have you call me, because I have a couple of things I would like you to do to generate diagnostic info for me to look at, and it is much easier to explain it over the phone - I am about to send you my cell number in a PM.

Bob Bone

Check out this guide to optimizing your system for audio put out by Sweetwater...

http://www.sweetwater.com...Optimization_Guide.pdf

It was recommended to me by Cakewalk tech support when I was first starting out and having the same problems. There is one step that is to be omitted with Sonar though so read the thread I posted about it at the time...

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2580739

I got some very helpful answers on what to avoid.

You can always give Cake tech support a call for help as well at 1-888-CAKEWALK. It's toll free if you are in the US. Might want to fire them an email beforehand with as much detail on your system and the problems you are having then reference the ticket number the email system generates when you call tech support. That way you don't have to waste time on the phone trying to explain stuff.

Or you could call, Bob. He seems like a smart enough fellow.

Good luck. 

I am really grateful at the support here, it is extremely satisfying to know that people care enough to offer help. Ok, so, here is where I am at the moment. When I try to run the demo project (Where did we go wrong) with the WDM drivers, it simply hangs the system. This is with just the stereo mixdown solo'd. Now, surely I'm right in thinking that it should struggle and pop and crack a little if something is in conflict, but simply to crash? This isn't right?
When I change back to ASIO it runs fine (latency total Roundtrip 8.5 msec, Buffer size 128 samples - Bob's advice)
Now, I don't really understand what this latency figure means in real world terms, as I haven't been able to trigger any sounds from my control keyboard yet as I was waiting for a midi cable. The midi cable is now here and connected, but I think I have to configure it as nothing happened when I played the keyboard (this is another issue, but that may be me not setting it up correctly - oh for the days of "plug and play"!) Thanks for the offer of telephone support. I can make a call as long as it doesn't last too long as I'm in Switzerland, and in work. (yes, I actually get to write a song as part of my work but that's a story for another day!)
I'll pm Bob and he can tell me what the best time is to call, don't want to wake him up!
In the meantime, I will review all the info above, see if I can get my MIDI working and hopefully have something to report soon.

In the interest of not wasting anyone's time, MIDI problem is solved! Keyboard plays fine with no noticeable delay at all (also played along with a midi sequence with about 6 or 7 sofzt synths running and it was fine. Thanks for your input Sharke, but I posted another question about this in the hardware section. Yes, the UF5 has USB which I used back in 2008 on another laptop (way less spec than the one I have now) Sonar Producer 7 and a MOTU Ultralite. The system worked flawlessly. Ah, but that was XP! There are no drivers for the UF keyboard for Windows 7! I also had to buy another audio interface as I don't have Firewire on my new laptop! It has been fun and games so far! Anyway, keyboard is working, Sonar is receiving the MIDI info. 1 problem less to think about!

ASIO is probably the best driver mode to use so if it's working better definitely stick with that but even if it weren't you'd want to try to get thing running smoothly using it.

8.5ms roundtrip is a decent latency value and should be imperceivable to the human ear while recording so that's fine although it's not SUPER low. My system runs at around 7ms roundtrip at it's lowest settings and it's more than usable.

As far as the keyboard not giving a signal have you... 

a) Go into Edit > Preferences > MIDI - Devices and selected the controller. If it's not in the list try reinstalling the drivers (if it has any). Also make sure you turn the controller on BEFORE opening Sonar. Sometimes not doing that can make things weird. If you still can't see it in the list you may have to use the Generic Controller option which you can read about in the Sonar manual. It sounds like you are using an old style MIDI connector. If so I'm not sure if this applies. Does it have a USB connection? If so it's a lot easier to just use that.

b) Insert a soft synth. You'll want to read up on the Insert Soft Synth options in the manual but you can just select Simple Instrument Track for now to get up and running.

c) On the new track the inserted synth created make sure you have enabled the MIDI Echo button so it turns blue. If you aren't sure which button it is take a look in the manual for a picture of it.

d) If you still aren't getting a sound make sure you have loaded a patch in the Synth's property window (the window that shows the synth's GUI).

A couple other things to help keep your system from screwing up is to use as few effects as possible while tracking. Then once you've done your tracking and are adding effects/mixing increase your audio buffers in your interface's software (check the owner's manual of your interface to find out how to do this). This will give the computer more time to process info which helps eliminate dropouts/pops/clicks/crashes. This may cause latency if you try to record again but it is fine for mixing. If you DO need to record another part lower your buffers again. If you start experiencing dropout/pops/clicks/crashes use the Freeze button on the tracks that have synths and/or effects on them. This will "freeze" those plugins so they aren't draining your system resources but you'll still be able to hear the effects. If you want to adjust those synths/effects though you'll have to unfreeze them. Again refer to the Sonar manual to see what the Freeze button looks like but it's the button that has a little snowflake looking thing on it.

Hope all this helps. Cheers.

I read the Sweetwater article and disabled everything and I am still getting the "spikes" in the Latency checker and the error message that I some driver is "bad". I didn't do anything to the BIOS however, as that's not something I know about. There is obviously something going on with this laptop that is affecting the latency. I haven't a clue what to try next!

@Percepto

I sent you a couple of PM replies - I am available per your schedule.

Bob Bone

Just a quick question:  Are you having the clicks and pops only on Loops or on all audio?

The reason I ask is that I've experienced a similar click-and-pop problem with loops and found that by putting a very short fast fade-in (maybe 1 or 2 samples in length) at the very beginning of the loop and a short fast fade-out on the end of the loop cleaned up the problems I was experiencing.  Seems the problem is related to clipping a waveform at a point that was not next-to-silent would cause this and have just gotten myself into the habit of putting in the fades.  I don't know if this is a "normal" procedure or not, just my solution.

Best,
guitardood

So, here is the current situation. Tried installing Sonar and my soundcard on a completely "clean" machine. Lenovo Thinkpad T400,Dual core P8700 @2.53 GHz, 4gb Ram. Everything worked perfectly @ 48k, 24 bit. Latency Checker reported no issues and I had no dropouts or issues. I tried exactly the same thing with the Loop Constructor with wild extremes of left and right panning, velocity and pitches. Not a pop or a click to be heard! I also even wrote the basis of a song (surprised myself!) with 10 tracks of vocals, 4 loops and 6 midi channels. Some effects also and bus routing, and again, not even a minor hiccup. So, no issue with Sonar and the RME, we now know it's an issue with my laptop, which is potentially a far superior one than the one I just did the test on. Next step is to strip my machine to it's bare minimum and we'll go from there. Thank you for all the input and help, I will hopefully post a successful outcome soon.

So, here is the current situation. Tried installing Sonar and my soundcard on a completely "clean" machine. Lenovo Thinkpad T400,Dual core P8700 @2.53 GHz, 4gb Ram. Everything worked perfectly @ 48k, 24 bit. Latency Checker reported no issues and I had no dropouts or issues. I tried exactly the same thing with the Loop Constructor with wild extremes of left and right panning, velocity and pitches. Not a pop or a click to be heard! I also even wrote the basis of a song (surprised myself!) with 10 tracks of vocals, 4 loops and 6 midi channels. Some effects also and bus routing, and again, not even a minor hiccup. So, no issue with Sonar and the RME, we now know it's an issue with my laptop, which is potentially a far superior one than the one I just did the test on. Next step is to strip my machine to it's bare minimum and we'll go from there. Thank you for all the input and help, I will hopefully post a successful outcome soon.