Anderton
The backstory: With sample buffers below 256 samples, regardless of the interface I would often get the dreaded audio system motorboating where Sonar would lock up, not be stoppable from the Task Manager, and require a reboot to get working again. Recently, there was a thread here about latencies and I thought I would try using lower latencies again. The problem persisted. I just assumed that the V-Studio drivers were kinda old, that my projects were getting more complex, maybe I needed a faster processor, etc. 
 
Then I thought maybe some  Device Manager process was causing a problem (someone had mentioned improved performance by disabling the network card), so I started experimenting. Of course I had already disabled the Realtek High Definition Audio driver but there was also another audio device under Sound, Video, and Game Controllers called AMD High Definition Audio Device. It didn't have an option to disable, only uninstall, so I never messed with it.
 
The fix: In my computer's Device Manager under System Devices, there's an entry titled High Definition Audio Controller. I was able to disable it, and poof - the AMD High Definition Audio Device disappeared from Sound, Video, and Game Controllers. Since disabling this, Sonar has run flawlessly for two days straight on two different CPU-heavy projects with a 48 sample buffer!
 
A possibly related issue: It's been noted several times in these forums that the choice of graphics boards can have a huge impact on Sonar's performance. Maybe it's not the graphics card itself, but the audio driver installed with a board. I'm pretty sure nVidia boards install some kind of audio driver as well.
 
I am one effing happy camper right now. 48 samples!! If anyone looks into this on their system, please report back and let us know if it helps. I can't believe the difference.
 
 

Hi all,i haven't any other audio device in my system devices.I have only the Focusrite Saffire 26\io listed.
I have a Nvidia graphic card and i have disabled the realtek on board audio card in the bios setting.
If I'm wrong I accept suggestions.
Best

Note: After disabling the drivers under System Devices, you need to reboot the computer for the changes to take effect.
 

Anderton

Paul P
Thanks for this !
 
I also have the AMD HDA-device.  However, I can disable it, and just did as I don't need it.
I don't have it appearing under System Devices.

 
Interestingly, after the next power off/power on cycle, the driver had re-installed itself. However when it did, this time it included an option to disable. So I disabled it and disabled the one under System Devices. We'll see what happens tomorrow when the computer gets turned on.
 

If you choose Custom Install wtih nVidia drivers you can actually stop the nVidia audio getting installed so you never have to worry about it. Also choose "Clean Installation" which supposedly removes ALL drivers and settings, but in my experience (unless installing to a fresh W instal) one still needs to tweak the registry. 
 
Here is a process for showing those hidden devices (the tab in Control Panel does not show all of them) that still can affect performance, even though "supposedly" not loaded or indeed showing...
 
Windows Device Manager only normally displays Registry entries for devices that are currently connected, even if you use its 'Show hidden devices' function, but if you follow these steps you can force it to display redundant devices that are no longer connected, so that you can delete them once and for all.
First you need to start the Windows Command Line Prompt, by selecting the Run option in the Start menu, entering 'cmd.exe' into the text dialogue and pressing return. This will launch a DOS window into which you type the following commands, pressing return at the end of each:
 
set devmgr_show_nonpresent_devices=1
 
start devmgmt.msc
 
Device Manager will automatically appear after the second command, and now if you go into its View menu and select 'Show hidden devices' you should see quite a few 'greyed out' items referring to missing hardware. For more details on what's safe to delete and what's not, check out www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun04/articles/pcnotes.htm.
Here are some additional points that may help. First, before deleting any greyed-out item belonging to old hardware, if you double-click on it (or right-click on it and select Properties), select the Drivers page and then click on its Driver Details button, Windows may be able to display a list of all the driver files the old hardware used. Since these are not deleted when you delete the Device Manager entry, it's worth noting down the non-Microsoft ones for later removal by hand, if you want to be thorough.
 
 

Please be careful about disabling the high definition audio device on the computer since it will surely disable all onboard audio for other apps and could adversely affect apps that rely on it.
I think Craig listed "High Definition Audio Controller" which has a different name from HD audio device..
I don't think you can generalize that any onboard audio device will cause latency problems. Normally onboard audio is a completely different path from an external audio device. So if you are using ASIO it shouldn't be impacted by onboard audio. 

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Please be careful about disabling the high definition audio device on the computer since it will surely disable all onboard audio for other apps and could adversely affect apps that rely on it.
I think Craig listed "High Definition Audio Controller" which has a different name from HD audio device..
I don't think you can generalize that any onboard audio device will cause latency problems. Normally onboard audio is a completely different path from an external audio device. So if you are using ASIO it shouldn't be impacted by onboard audio. 

Actually Noel, it does not I can still use my onboard audio anytime I want. And if one has the Audio interface as the default (and unlocks the Exclusive mode) then ALL apps using the system default are using that device anyway..............nVidia "High Def" drivers have been an issue for a LONG time...and why they also STILL affect the available 10 midi slots in W is also a mystery.

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Please be careful about disabling the high definition audio device on the computer since it will surely disable all onboard audio for other apps and could adversely affect apps that rely on it.

 
You can always enable it again...besides, if I'm running Sonar, all I care about is performance with Sonar.
 

I think Craig listed "High Definition Audio Controller" which has a different name from HD audio device..
I don't think you can generalize that any onboard audio device will cause latency problems. Normally onboard audio is a completely different path from an external audio device. So if you are using ASIO it shouldn't be impacted by onboard audio. 

 
I wouldn't think so, but there's no question that if I disable these system devices, my ASIO interfaces work with lower latencies than was possible before, sometimes dramatically so - and the system is more stable. This has happened with both Roland and TASCAM interfaces on two different computers (one desktop, one laptop) so it doesn't seem like a corner case.
 
The main reason I posted this is because what I was seeing seemed too good to be true, so I was hoping other people would give it a try as it's a reversible procedure. Nothing needs to be uninstalled, only disabled. 
 
Maybe it doesn't relate to the audio, but rather, with stopping a process that reduces system efficiency? 

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Are you using ASIO or WDM for your main audio interface? Also is your onboard audio device an NVidia audio device?

At least on the laptop, this relates only to ASIO; the "High Definition Audio Controller" is listed as coming from Microsoft, so I presume it's a different deal from the ATI driver on my desktop. I was reluctant to disable it at first because it was a Microsoft device, but I figured I could always re-enable it. However disabling it nonetheless appears to improve ASIO performance, although not as much as disabling the ATI driver did on the desktop.
 
If I choose WDM, the TASCAM interface connected to the laptop "sticks" at 256 samples and changing latency in the TASCAM control panel makes no difference. I can still hear system sounds, audio from YouTube, etc. I don't have to go into the Control Panel Sound option and set a different default or anything. I'll check out WDM on the desktop later tonight.
 
Regardless, I was not able to track guitar with the lowest latency setting on the US-366 before disabling the High Definition Audio Controller driver. It's still "on the edge" but it's useable. 
 
So I may be doing something wrong, but I can't argue with the results. And with the V-Studio/desktop, being able to play back power-hungry Sonar projects at 64 samples instead of 256 is really cool...
 
But this wouldn't be the first time I ended up doing something "right" by doing something "wrong" 

Craig, you are consistently full of interesting surprises. Thanks. I will try this since latency is such a **** on my laptop.

**Updated Information**
 
I have been in dialog with Noel (Noel, please correct me if any of the following does not interpret what you've said properly) and he does not think the Microsoft High Definition Audio Controller in System Devices is the culprit, but only the ATI device. He also thinks this might have little to do with audio per se, but rather that the ATI device slows down performance in general, which of course would affect latency (in which case it's quite a slowdown, to say the least!).
 
However, here's how the Microsoft High Definition Audio Controller became part of my scenario. The AMD device could not be disabled originally, only uninstalled and I didn't want to do anything that wasn't reversible. The only way to disable the AMD Device was if I disabled the High Definition Audio Controller first; I've just left the Microsoft HD Audio Controller disabled too because everything was working so well, but based on Noel's comments, I'll re-enable that - I'm pretty sure that I can still leave the AMD device disabled once it has been disabled, but re-enable the Microsoft HD Audio Controller. If the performance increase continues, that will point at the AMD device and not the Microsoft one.
 
Therefore for laptops, if all you have is the Microsoft High Definition Audio Controller and not some custom graphics device, it's probably worth leaving it enabled. Although I have noticed an improvement on the laptop here, after more testing it's much smaller than it appeared at first. As soon as I kicked in a heavy distortion algorithm on the TH2, it tilted the latency back to unacceptable. So the bottom line ended up that in either case, the very lowest latency setting could not be counted on for reliable operation, but the low latency setting could. Given Noel's concern that disable the Microsoft High Definition Audio Controller could trigger the Law of Unintended Consequences, it's probably worth keeping as is. 
 
Regardless, there is no doubt that in my system, something is causing a substantial, dramatic improvement and disabling the AMD High Definition Audio Device seems to be the key. I'll continue to follow up and see if the Microsoft High Definition Audio Controller has a role in this that goes beyond just making it possible to disable the ATI device, but I have to say once more that being able to go from 256 samples or crashes as a way of life to 64 samples and no crashes is a huge deal to me!! Given how many other people on the forum have experienced similar crash scenarios (freeze/motorboating/can't stop with Task Manager/reboot required), and how many have nVidia and ATI graphics boards in their sigs, if this can be nailed down it could change the quality of life for Sonar users as much as it has changed mine.
 
Meanwhile, any of these changes I've mentioned are all reversible, so feel free to experiment and report back with your findings.

If only you could find away around the latency issues of my laptops nvidia graphics driver

You're assuming that the computer behaved this way out of the box. It didn't. As long as I was doing smaller projects and testing, the latency change (who knows which driver "update" it was) wasn't an issue so it was the kind of thing I figured I'd look into "someday."
 
"Someday" arrived last Thursday, when I knew I had to mix a large project over the weekend that also required overdubs (when you're mostly a post-production suite, 20 ms of latency isn't a big deal). I started investigating Friday night, and had an answer on Saturday. Didn't have to "put up" with it for too long...and no matter how cool Jim and Scott are, I question how much they would have appreciated a call at 2AM on Saturday morning.
 

Sanderxpander

Anderton
Thanks! To which I would add...set devmgr_show_nonpresent_devices=1 is essential for finding zombie MIDI ports so you can delete them and get around the Windows MIDI port limit (used to be 10, I think it's 16 or 32 now).
 
FYI Microsoft is investigating the MIDI port limit thing. I've been involved in that dialog, mostly as a nag 

I'm pretty sure it's still ten in Windows 7 at least, I looked into it when it came up for me. Some reports claim that the limit has been fixed in Windows 7 but I know for a fact that's not the case. For anyone who doesn't enjoy registry diving, you can install the Korg midi driver, it comes with a utility to remove old and phantom drivers.
EDIT: glad to hear at least some dialog is going on there

Its in 8 as well SE...I just had to delete some to make room for Korg Midi drivers that would not run and were posted as #12 in the midi slots..got them dropped to #7 and they work. So yeah, limit still applies even in 8. (8.1 to be exact on my system).

The reason I recommended disabling the on-board audio device in BIOS was to have only the possible culprits listed in the device manager.
 
Disabling for me resulted in 2 fewer items listed in the device manager that I did not have to disable. And only one HD device listed under System. The MS audio and one of the System HD devices were gone. Hence they were not associated with the video card audio device.
 
After disabling the remaining System HD audio device, I now only have the emu audio interface listed, in the device manager, in the windows sound dialog, and the audio inputs/outputs of the device manager.
 
For me all windows audio appears to use the windows driver which I have routed via patch-mix to an asio output to the speakers.  No windows generated audio has been affected.
 
However, as Noel warned, disabling the on-board device may not work with USB interfaces.

Actually those custom builds, at least studio cats, ( not sure about the other one mentioned)  are not any more expensive than your typical off the shelf box. I've been shopping around and was blown away at what little you get in a HP, Dell, Lenovo etc pre built desktop. By the time you "build your own" with proper components your probably $$ over what the same Studio Cat's sell for.
 
I too am surprised by this thread as this is sort of common practice for setting up a DAW. 
I never install audio drivers other than for my interface's if I have that choice. 
I've never had issues with other apps playing their audio through my interface's.  Only once and it was because I had failed to update ActiveX or something like that. 
 
And right now as example I installed W8.1 on my office desktop and I have just bought a new Nvidia card so I could use the HDMI to my 32" TV. VLC and Media player play just fine through my Tascam interface which is hooked up to a good Hi Fi system. I'm not using the TV's audio.  I did nothing special to make this happen. 
 If I was using it for Sonar I would disable the Nvidia Audio driver as a matter of course. But I would also disable a lot of other stuff too. I'm in the habit of disabling every damn thing I can get away with,  without freaking the computer out. Always have been.  

johnnyV
Actually those custom builds, at least studio cats, ( not sure about the other one mentioned)  are not any more expensive than your typical off the shelf box. I've been shopping around and was blown away at what little you get in a HP, Dell, Lenovo etc pre built desktop. By the time you "build your own" with proper components your probably $$ over what the same Studio Cat's sell for.

 
Exactly. The off the shelf computer likely won't have enough RAM or hard drive space, for starters. By the time you add what you need, you're better off with the custom machine, which will also likely be more easily expandable and run more quietly because it's designed to do that.
 

I too am surprised by this thread as this is sort of common practice for setting up a DAW.

Yes, but if it was as simple as just disabling the device I never would have started this thread. What seems highly unusual (at least to me) is having a driver installed under Sound, Video, and Game controllers with no option to disable unless you happen to find and disable the HD Host Controller device in the middle of a zillion devices under System Devices, assuming one would even think to unfold System Devices to look for an audio driver that could be disabled so it would be possible to disable the one in Sound, Video, and Game controllers (and even then, as detailed in a subsequent post, disabling the HD Host Controller only made the AMD device disappear temporarily; it could be disabled properly only after a reboot, at which point the Disable option appeared mysteriously in the AMD device's right-click context menu). If that's a common practice, wow...I've enabled and disabled tons of devices but never had to deal with anything that convoluted. I doubt most people here would consider that method of disabling a device as standard operating procedure, but maybe it is. If so, I'd never heard of it so I thought it was worth mentioning.
 
To add insult to injury, when I download drivers I always try to download just the driver and avoid the fancy control panels and other stuff.