keyzs
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 00:25:36
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☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2014/10/14 00:55:20
The disabling of the said HD Audio component as mentioned by Craig, actually frees one of the CPU cores from the so called "HD Audio work" hence the configured Windows System appears to have a lower latency.
The driver issue is mainly due to Windows Installers themselves. Since the beginning, Windows has always allowed itself to accept "any" additional component without minimum fuss... remembering the days of WinNT, plug in a new PCI card and Windows will display a message that a new device has been found. Then the drivers are installed via CD or Floppy.
FF to the days of "Plug and Play" - using generic devices work but without specific features as intended by the user. Again, drivers needed to be installed - however, this time it will be custom drivers being installed over generic. When WinME came out it was a major shambles perhaps the worse OS ever. With WinVista and beyond, clean installations became a lot easier... not really... just that most things are hidden.
Even today, clean install a Windows computer and upon boot up, graphics, sound and other stuff are already working. Plug in a printer and some other stuff and they work... Going into the drivers area and you'll actually see the number of generic printer drivers installed by Windows is just madness.
It may appear that the competition is having better hardware especially in the pro audio World however, their software drivers have been designed to fit specific hardware to begin with. As for a purposefully built Windows system, a lot of time is dedicated to R&D on both the selected hardware and the sets of drivers to be installed or remove; hence the increased costs. Then on delivery to the customer, all he or she needs to do is hook up a power cord, power on and be good to go. Honestly as musicians and music people, we wouldnt want to spend out days tearing our hair out fretting over a new build or otherwise.
There are tools employed to select specific components before an install of Windows. However, to nitpick what goes in or out is seriously a nightmare in itself. With Win7 and Win8 its almost impossible because of the so called dependencies. Trust me.... i have given up. Rather i install everything MS wants and then work backwards.
For those interested, the keys here are "ks.inf" and "wdmaudio.inf". These files are always part of the code for every type of audio driver... there again there may be more....
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Anderton
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 00:34:50
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johnnyV
Well Greg your discovery is very important for a lot of systems that will be crippled by that and it sure doesn't hurt to remind folks of this again and again. It is the best reason for this forum existing and all these little tips have been a great lifesaver for me.
So can you give me an opinion on whether this kind of convoluted fix is commonplace? Was I wrong to think that the context menu for the device in S, V, and G controllers should have a disable option, you'd select it, and carry on? It's the difficulty of disabling, and the fix for being able to do so, that I thought required detail above and beyond the usual "disable stuff you're not using."
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Anderton
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 00:51:21
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keyzs
The disabling of the said HD Audio component as mentioned by Craig, actually frees one of the CPU cores from the so called "HD Audio work" hence the configured Windows System appears to have a lower latency.
Thanks for taking the time to write the informative post. You're one of the people who noticed the thread title posed a question  One engineer told me in private that nVidia drivers are notorious for being poorly written and hogging processes, and he wouldn't be surprised if AMD drivers were in the same ballpark. He had encountered one driver (I don't think it was nVidia) that actually stopped your hardware while it did its thing. I imagine that would have a negative effect on latency, LOL. He theorizes sloppy code that penalizes system performance is the culprit, and eliminating that process is what's providing the improvement. That makes sense, because the system was perfectly capable of running at low latencies, but not consistently without having an eventual crash. So it seems logical to me that although the system could cope most of the time, sometimes the process would bog down the system so much it would just give up and crash. I assume increasing the latency covered up for those times when the system would otherwise be bogged down, but I don't know the nuts and bolts of how this stuff works...I'm experientially oriented.
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 01:03:14
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johnnyV
Actually those custom builds, at least studio cats, ( not sure about the other one mentioned) are not any more expensive than your typical off the shelf box. I've been shopping around and was blown away at what little you get in a HP, Dell, Lenovo etc pre built desktop. By the time you "build your own" with proper components your probably $$ over what the same Studio Cat's sell for.
sure johnnyV , I happen to agree with you 100% ….. and dare I say Mike …. where only the best is good enough …that is the only way to go if you can swing it … i have that end covered w my guitars , amps and pedals ….sure wish I could say that about my Windows computer . regarding the general topic here I'm under the impression that SONAR itself is ahead of the loop as far as the hardware it runs on goes…. am I mistaken by thinking that it is the current hardware and layers of the windows OS that is holding up and creating the added latency issues ? it seems to me that the hardware needs to catch up to SONAR …Yes ? No ? that appears to be what I'm getting from this discusion at this point anyway , I came to this topic to learn what i could , even tried out a few of the sugested configurations . even on my off the shelf mid spec lap top …...there was a slightly noticeable difference…. Kenny
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keyzs
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 04:36:32
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Anderton
Thanks for taking the time to write the informative post. You're one of the people who noticed the thread title posed a question
Hi Craig, thank you for your kind comments. Like many of us here, all we request for is a system and platform which is stable enough to handle all our demands to produce the music which we so love. Along the way we learn much from others while we share what we can. Thank you again since the days of Ensoniq and Mr Mash  ... i did a little digging into this... apparently the HD Audio Controller not only releases the CPU Core as i once thought (post #61), there is also IRQ involved. (Ref: https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windows/en-US/d8351bb8-2678-428c-bbb3-004c01f58cb7/microsoft-high-definition-audio-controller-conflict ) Looks like there is more than meets the eye here... i'll try to take this a little further whenever time permits and will keep this thread alive. On my current system, i have disable so much stuff i actually dont know where to being.  The most major of MAJOR issues that really bugs me is the way Windows integrates generic and legacy drivers during Windows first install. Things may be made worse when specific drivers and or updated drivers are installed over these generic ones. In my most humble opinion, the key to improving Sonar's Audio Performance may be to redesign a brand new audio codec from scratch where it totally bypasses and or ignores anything which MS and ASIO have done in the past and or are doing either currently now without the baggage of legacy codex. To put it simply is to have Sonar "talk" directly to the Hardware Audio Interface bypassing even USB and or FW protocol. (That i dont know if its possible - a new protocol perhaps...???) (Another issue is how to bypass Windows' own media codecs...???) The reason for this conclusion is that when ASIO first came out, it was not without issues, however it was the beginning of a dedicated audio streaming protocol that attempts to bypass the OS audio kernels, hence reducing full duplex audio delays. Although technology has improved tremendously since the first ASIO codec was released, the new and or old codes were never properly addressed to solve issues. Then came WASPI and WDM etc... These are just codes over codes which cover over even more codes.... Marketing has always dubbed these as new technologies... unfortunately not. Thats why there are still traces of legacy code to begin with (post #61) The increase in speeds of modern CPUs and other hardware simply cover up of what's lurking below the actual code structures. These days, programmers will simply use a few lines of "new" code to cover up whats wrong rather than actually studying or modifying the original codes to get to the root of the problem. With today's hardware technologies, we should be recording and playing back at speeds close to the way transistors handle current, unfortunately we arent... Personally i have used CWPA since the days of old and Twelve Tone will always have a special place in my heart. Sincerely i look forward to the day when Cakewalk will be the one DAW that rules them all  . Where we can all proudly say if you arent using Cakewalk, you arent "industry standard"... sounds familiar ha... cheers all
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TremoJem
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 06:59:25
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Excellent stuff here!
post edited by TremoJem - 2014/10/14 12:01:17
Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser Most importantly...not enough time. www.studiocat.com jim@studiocat.com
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gswitz
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough? Check this Out!
2014/10/14 07:08:15
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Sanderxpander
Ugh I really envy OSX people sometimes. I hate parts of it, and really wouldn't want to switch away from Sonar, but the whole audio/midi part is just soooooo much better done.
My next os is Linux. I see no practical or moral benefits to Apple products.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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lawp
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough? Check this Out!
2014/10/14 07:26:19
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fwiw, the HDMI audio on my lappy is labelled as "Intel(R) Display Audio" as it has an intel chipset, and "High Definition Audio Device" refers to the usual onboard soundcard
sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
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lawp
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough? Check this Out!
2014/10/14 07:26:45
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gswitz
Sanderxpander
Ugh I really envy OSX people sometimes. I hate parts of it, and really wouldn't want to switch away from Sonar, but the whole audio/midi part is just soooooo much better done.
My next os is Linux. I see no practical or moral benefits to Apple products.
but... but... don't they say something about your lifestyle? ;-)
sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough? Check this Out!
2014/10/14 07:31:32
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The main practical benefits I see are Logic X, which is a great program, plus all the other software, hardware and plugins that I use that will work without any issue if I were to make the switch. I haven't really tried Linux seriously but it seems too tweaky/fiddly for a professional DAW.
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lawp
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough? Check this Out!
2014/10/14 07:39:12
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i tried ubuntu a couple of years ago, ok for office & internet but not daw or games
sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough? Check this Out!
2014/10/14 08:16:27
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Sanderxpander , I made the switch soon after I picked up X3e P.E. ….lets just say it has been very educational ...
I'm not dealing w any config issues over on that end and that is nice , yet I can say they both have their strengths and weaknesses
Kenny
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 08:42:04
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keyzs
The reason for this conclusion is that when ASIO first came out, it was not without issues, however it was the beginning of a dedicated audio streaming protocol that attempts to bypass the OS audio kernels, hence reducing full duplex audio delays. Although technology has improved tremendously since the first ASIO codec was released, the new and or old codes were never properly addressed to solve issues. Then came WASPI and WDM etc... These are just codes over codes which cover over even more codes.... Marketing has always dubbed these as new technologies... unfortunately not. Thats why there are still traces of legacy code to begin with (post #61)
Just to clarify some inaccuracy here. ASIO does *not* bypass the OS kernel. ASIO is a user mode layer (exactly like a plugin dll in that respect) that sits on top of the OS kernel. In fact on Windows every driver vendor who writes an ASIO driver must additionally write a kernel mode driver for the actual communication with the audio interface. What the ASIO dll does is communicate with the kernel mode driver using lower level calls, typically IOCTL's. This mechanism bypasses the higher level windows API's and the multimedia stack, like MME, WASAPI etc, so it has some advantages since those layers introduce buffering. Kernel streaming, that Cakewalk was the first to implement support for, follows a very similar approach. It bypasses the high level multimedia stack and communicates with the kernel mode drivers directly via the KS API that Microsoft published a long time ago. All drivers on the system share the same hardware and low level stack so unfortunately its possible for another inefficient driver to affect performance of another. There is no way around that in the present Windows architecture. Microsoft made some progress using MMCSS but its not a foolproof solution.
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keyzs
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 10:35:39
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
keyzs
The reason for this conclusion is that when ASIO first came out, it was not without issues, however it was the beginning of a dedicated audio streaming protocol that attempts to bypass the OS audio kernels, hence reducing full duplex audio delays. Although technology has improved tremendously since the first ASIO codec was released, the new and or old codes were never properly addressed to solve issues. Then came WASPI and WDM etc... These are just codes over codes which cover over even more codes.... Marketing has always dubbed these as new technologies... unfortunately not. Thats why there are still traces of legacy code to begin with (post #61)
Just to clarify some inaccuracy here. ASIO does *not* bypass the OS kernel. ASIO is a user mode layer (exactly like a plugin dll in that respect) that sits on top of the OS kernel. In fact on Windows every driver vendor who writes an ASIO driver must additionally write a kernel mode driver for the actual communication with the audio interface. What the ASIO dll does is communicate with the kernel mode driver using lower level calls, typically IOCTL's.
Hi Noel, many thanks for your kind thoughts. Yup... ASIO does not bypass the OS kernel; it somehow sits on top of it... just that the OS kernel is kinda like the foundation for building upwards; if its sand or mud we'd all be in shambles  on the other hand if we had a solid foundation to begin with... woohooo!!! i'm sure things will get better at MS and hopefully someday they could implement an installer which will allow the barest of barest minimum to be initially installed so that power users will ultimately make their own choices of what else needs to go in. (Shall we start back at DOS and buildup from there... ) Glad you mentioned MMCSS... lets hope for now MS can get their "real-time priority" thinngy correct No worries... we will always make the best of all that is offered... many thanks again... cheers!!!
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Splat 
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 10:39:59
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keyzs
i'm sure things will get better at MS and hopefully someday they could implement an installer which will allow the barest of barest minimum to be initially installed so that power users will ultimately make their own choices of what else needs to go in. (Shall we start back at DOS and buildup from there... )
An abstraction layer will always be useful, otherwise Cakewalk will end up writing drivers for all audio interfaces like the good 'ole days. Cheers...
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Sir Les
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough? Check this Out!
2014/10/14 10:51:28
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Thanks for the info Anderson, And keyzs for the reg hacks.
I have noticed when I turn on in Bios the "on board audio device (Realtec) " with the other HDMI audio running as it does with the ATI video cards, with ASIO in use in Sonar x3e....The mouse problem occurs, with crackling and such when moving it around the screen , No matter the latency number used....Here.
I would like to say it could be a IRQ related issue..?..But that is just me being me, as always was, is is still....WINK., or some conflicting switching method used between the devices may be causing the hickups?
I feel the Thunderbolt 2 port and firewire adapter, helps me at least have internet with the Zed ASIO sound device in use, which was impossible on just the firewire 400/800 PCIe 1x card port.
So progress is happening...
I am able to use the HDMI and ASIO for my ZED and internet, with certain latency settings with no problems so far...using this Thunderbolt port with the firewire adapter...and internet intel on board nic.
But I sometimes have to engage the "on board audio" to record the internet into Sonar through my zed....As the HDMI out put on my video Monitor does not seem to work, I have to turn on the "on board sound card" to get the internet audio to pass through it (44.1), and then to my Zed Desk, to record it (what ever setting I want to record it at).
So knowing I can turn off the HDMI now...which should clean up the crackling mouse movements when turning on on board audio device is......Great news!...And if it does work, when implemented, I can keep the HDMI off (do not use this device) setting???, and the on board audio left on, with ASIO, perhaps without the issues here?
more testing....yip yip
Again thanks!
Hair is growing back nicely!
More Mead is required to celebrate...Cheers!
Sir Les
1. Intel 5960x 3.5mhz , ASUS x99 deluxe u3.1, Asus Thunderbolt ex II, G skills f4 3000 Memory 32GB , ADATA ssd 250GB Main Drive, Lots of WD Red 7200 Mechanical Drives with Black Drives, 14x multi optical Drive, LG Multi Blu Drive, 2X Extern WD Mybooks usb 3.0, AMD r7 270 video card, Motu 828x TB , Motu Midi XT. 2. USING MAC PRO, as win 10 has damaged 2 x99 systems 8.1 is also to blame for the final burnout trying to roll back! 3. Something Wonderful: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AlHkRy9cXBbYpQNvVBCt8r7fQ5PS
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StarTekh
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 11:00:31
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The key to a rock solid workstation is in the build .
Turning off onboard devices like built in audio even firewire if you dont use it is VIP
as said above it frees up IRQ's and stuff, ive been doing this for years
A proper build starts with well selected parts and then build from the bios up..chipset drivers video drivers and in that order are key.
Done right X3e will perform 100%....Happy Tracking !
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Muziekschuur at home
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough? Check this Out!
2014/10/14 11:29:25
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This driver can be disabled in the bios.... Just disable onboard audio.... My settings are 512 as latency compensation in Sonar works a treat....
post edited by Muziekschuur at home - 2014/10/14 12:41:25
Cakewalk Sonar Platinum Windows 7 32bit & 64bit (dualboot) Gigabyte mobo Intel dual quad 9650 & 4GB Ram RME DIGI9636 & Tascam DM24. M-audio Rbus & SI-24 Alesis Pro active 5.1 & Radford 90 transmissionline monitors. Roland RD-150 piano Edirol UM-880 & alesis fireport. Remote recording Alesis HD-24 & Phonic MRS 1-20. P.A. D&R Dayner 29-8-2 & behringer MX8000 (& racks) Rackpc Sonar Platinum with win10 AMD X6 1055T, 16GB Ram Dell inspiron 17R 6gb ram W10 two SSD's Sonar Plat.
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Sir Les
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 11:58:31
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Yep...IRQ's...virtual or not .,...The solution is with this age old problem (not solved)....and we go onwards not pushing for the right solutions...but live with what they offer...to make us pay more for the fixes and or tech support, to not address the real issue!
So more is not less...and less is not more..?.it has to be solved...and My understanding of IRQs since the beginning of the IBM machine standings are MS handles them improperly at the best of times, causing the conflicts of sharing them when it want to.....which leads to the glitches, freezing states, clicks and pops , crashing and other anomalies, well noted here ...(but workarounds work for now)
Perhaps the motherboard IRQ and Cpu capacities made more of....with E-prom software on chips to run the rodents and keyboard, ports and such, with out addressing the cpu??/ could help resolve more if not all issues, so no one has to turn on or off anything, and all ports or slots have exclusive irq's...and specific cpus to use, would be a blessing?
Just a thought since ever was...is, and may come someday....Pray to plug that idea in?
Wink.
1. Intel 5960x 3.5mhz , ASUS x99 deluxe u3.1, Asus Thunderbolt ex II, G skills f4 3000 Memory 32GB , ADATA ssd 250GB Main Drive, Lots of WD Red 7200 Mechanical Drives with Black Drives, 14x multi optical Drive, LG Multi Blu Drive, 2X Extern WD Mybooks usb 3.0, AMD r7 270 video card, Motu 828x TB , Motu Midi XT. 2. USING MAC PRO, as win 10 has damaged 2 x99 systems 8.1 is also to blame for the final burnout trying to roll back! 3. Something Wonderful: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AlHkRy9cXBbYpQNvVBCt8r7fQ5PS
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Anderton
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 16:52:07
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Another update... First, it really does seem to be only the AMD driver that's causing problems. I re-enabled the HD Audio Host Controller but left the AMD driver disabled and had the same level of increased performance. So given Noel's reservations about disabling the HD Audio Host Controller, it seems you can leave it on and still retain the benefits. However, as pointed out earlier, the only way I could actually disable the AMD driver was to disable the HD Audio Host Controller, reboot, disable the AMD Driver, and reboot again. Now it seems part of that process will be to re-enable the HD Audio Host Controller before the last re-boot. Second, again from Noel: All drivers on the system share the same hardware and low level stack so unfortunately it's possible for another inefficient driver to affect performance of another. There is no way around that in the present Windows architecture. Microsoft made some progress using MMCSS but its not a foolproof solution. I think he probably nailed it here, this explains a lot (probably also including why ASIO4ALL can wreak havoc with other, dedicated drivers). Third, I gleaned additional insights from Noel and Keith at Cakewalk (thanks guys!!) to write up an "official" version of this tip that actually answers the question in the thread title. They have graciously offered to look it over and make sure everything is correct. I'll close off my contribution to the thread by including the tweaked version. Let me again emphasize again I have no idea which systems this will help or not help, or to what degree. But even if only 1% of Sonar users have a system that can benefit from this change as much as mine has, that's going to be a very happy 1% of Sonar users. I'm curious to see what the results are with various nVidia-based setups.
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Brando
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 18:34:36
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Anderton
Another update...
I'm curious to see what the results are with various nVidia-based setups.
Hi Craig. Thanks for this. I have an NVidia 8400 GS driving dual monitors. After reading your post I thought I would revisit this issue. I had previously disabled, and also uninstalled the NVidia HD drivers. This time, I experimented a bit and (re-)discovered that NVidia reinstalls/re-enables the drivers on each re-boot. After doing some reading, I thought I would do a new clean installation of the most current drivers, omitting (de-selecting) installation of the high def audio drivers altogether. Even choosing this setup, It appears that the drivers re-install, and re-enable themselves on each restart, even though I selected to not install the drivers at all. I suspect I need to do a registry clean, in conjunction with a clean install. In any case I experimented a bit with disabling the NVidia audio drivers (4 are installed) and it's effect on latency in SONAR. Similar for disabling and uninstalling prior to running SONAR. For me at least, there is no noticeable improvement. I similarly see no improvement in disabling or eliminating the motherboard's Realtek high def audio driver, which I use for windows sounds. I'll try the reg clean / clean NVidia driver install, but wouldn't expect it to change anything based on what I've seen. I am using a USB based Presonus 1818 VSL at 18 ms round trip latency. Works great but wouldn't mind a boost. Alas, not the case here.
Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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Anderton
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 18:41:21
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Thanks for taking the time to check this out. I re-booted after making those kinds of changes so that they would "stick"...didn't seem to work otherwise. And again, the only way I could disable the ATI driver so it wouldn't show up every time I booted up was to do that song and dance with the HD Host Controller in System Devices. Sometimes it's all a mystery to me...
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 19:00:34
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@Brando - I too use a Presonus 1818 VSL, and actually use the on-board graphics I have, and my round trip latency reported by Sonar is 9.7 milliseconds - using 48 K sample rate and ASIO Buffer Size of 128, for tracking.
What ASIO Buffer Size do you have it set for?
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Splat
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 19:10:06
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@Brando, I guess I differ slightly here, latency monitor V6 does show an improvement for me. For stability I have to use the NVidia 332.21 drivers, and I make sure that only the drivers are installed and uninstall/remove from windows startup/disable in services, anything to do with NVidia. It really does help. Cheers....
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Brando
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 20:37:09
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robert_e_bone
@Brando - I too use a Presonus 1818 VSL, and actually use the on-board graphics I have, and my round trip latency reported by Sonar is 9.7 milliseconds - using 48 K sample rate and ASIO Buffer Size of 128, for tracking.
What ASIO Buffer Size do you have it set for?
Bob Bone
Hi Bob: 256. 128 gives me major crackles and pops. 256 is great. I am also running 48 khz sample rate. i put this down to system specs (older quad core, only 8 GB.) However my old PCI soundcard could do 6-8 ms before i updated my OS. thanks though!
Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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Brando
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 20:44:21
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CakeAlexS
@Brando, I guess I differ slightly here, latency monitor V6 does show an improvement for me. For stability I have to use the NVidia 332.21 drivers, and I make sure that only the drivers are installed and uninstall/remove from windows startup/disable in services, anything to do with NVidia. It really does help.
Cheers....
Hi Alex using the 340.xx drivers here. I think i agree actually (craig note- not being fickle here), that my dpc latency is better when/after disabling the nvidia drivers. But it was always "ok" -my system is pretty clean, and daw dedicated, and, at least in my case, the improvement in dpc latency (havent tried to quantify it) wasn't enough to manifest itself in the form of better performance enabling a reduction in asio buffer size/latency
Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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Anderton
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 21:09:38
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The amount of improvement will depend on many things. As you and Alex are using different drivers, who knows...I suspect, though, that given the amount of improvement with my system the driver I disabled was, uh, maybe less than ideal in terms of not interfering with the "good" audio driver.
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Brando
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/14 22:26:44
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Anderton
The amount of improvement will depend on many things. As you and Alex are using different drivers, who knows...I suspect, though, that given the amount of improvement with my system the driver I disabled was, uh, maybe less than ideal in terms of not interfering with the "good" audio driver.
Just had a thought - are you using hdmi? I wonder if the performance of the audio driver (designed to transmit audio over hdmi) differs depending on which video port is used?
Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/15 00:24:38
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Yo Craig You have helped put to rest the notion that W8 does not need optimizing for audio. The last few years we have constantly been told that it is not necessary to tweak as we were inclined to do with XP, and before. Your comment about how we are not usually inclined to review installed drivers, device listings, scheduled tasks,... after installing a new driver, or a program, should inspire us to adopt such attention as standard procedure for dedicated machines. Because of this topic I have re-read suggestions from hardware and software vendors, reviewed my list of "tweaks" and many of the items I have installed but do not use. Presonus still has a link to a tweaks file that recommends setting the page/swap file limits. This was disproved by RME at least 10 years ago. Best to let windows do what it needs. The file did compel me to disable the FW item listed in device manager, as I never use it. And subsequently reviewed all the device listings, and services, and startup items, and scheduled tasks. (Last year having the defrag service start a 1 am during a session was most disconcerting.) The video card currently in the music computer does not have an HDMI output. The one I purchased recently does. I am now on-guard! In the past I have assumed I should not expect my old and wrinkled pci based EMU 1820m to perform well and have had the asio settings to 20ms and greater to avoid dropouts, and crashes. I have assumed the crashes that were attributed to the windows part of the emu driver were reflective of it being abandoned. (Being pci based, windows does load wdm drivers for windows stuff.) Today, after the past few days of reading, testing and,... I get to here: Working on a 15 minute project: 96 tracks about 1/2 midi (nothing frozen) (about 1/4 of the tracks take turns: trk 20 5 minutes, 22: 5 minutes 23: 5 minutes so about 50 tracks with data playing at any point.) 17 effects 14 synths 15 buses 43 effects some are low level stuff like Panipulator. Today I tested with the 6ms setting. The project will play without dropouts. If I attempt to move too much too fast I may get a drop out and sonar will stop. And I can restart. Only happened once. No crashes. Tomorrow more testing. So, thank you for starting this topic. And being adamant about your righteousness.  (Yo Alex: let Ghandi use your hat.)
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Possible Key to SONAR Performance Breakthrough?!? Check this Out!!
2014/10/15 01:34:34
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Brando
robert_e_bone
@Brando - I too use a Presonus 1818 VSL, and actually use the on-board graphics I have, and my round trip latency reported by Sonar is 9.7 milliseconds - using 48 K sample rate and ASIO Buffer Size of 128, for tracking.
What ASIO Buffer Size do you have it set for?
Bob Bone
Hi Bob:
256. 128 gives me major crackles and pops. 256 is great. I am also running 48 khz sample rate.
i put this down to system specs (older quad core, only 8 GB.) However my old PCI soundcard could do 6-8 ms before i updated my OS.
thanks though!
I would tend to think you have some processes running in the background that are interfering with your ability to lower your ASIO Buffer Size. Perhaps you are running antivirus software that is a bit of a hog - try excluding Sonar's paths from what it scans - lots of folks do that and report benefits from doing so. And, take a gander at what else is running as processes - services, and you may find some that you could suspend or stop while running Sonar, and that would let you drop your ASIO Buffer Size to 128. Wi-Fi adapter? Those can wreak havoc on DPC Latency. If one is present, temporarily shut it off or disable it just prior to launching Sonar, and turn it back on after you are done with your Sonar session. Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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