PilotGav
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Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
I struggle with my workflow when it comes to channel and Buss FX. I'm wondering how/where others are using their plugins on channels. For example:
1) Only use Pro Channel Plugin FX
2) Use PC and any bin FX inside PC
3) Use PC and insert FX into the inserts, outside the PC
4) Only use Insert FX
I don't know why, but although I love the Pro Channel - i feel it's intrusive from a graphic/interface point of view, and inserting FX Bins "feels" even more... I don't know... WRONG. Again it's an interface/psychological thing.
Am I the only one who's facing this roadblock, or do others feel this as well?
Might just me my ADD creeping in.
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John
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/18 17:55:11
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I can't answer because I don't understand the question. What is it are you saying? Is it the look of the PC? The way the FX bin works?
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Doktor Avalanche 
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/18 18:05:35
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PilotGav
I struggle with my workflow when it comes to channel and Buss FX. I'm wondering how/where others are using their plugins on channels. For example:
1) Only use Pro Channel Plugin FX
2) Use PC and any bin FX inside PC
3) Use PC and insert FX into the inserts, outside the PC
4) Only use Insert FX
I don't know why, but although I love the Pro Channel - i feel it's intrusive from a graphic/interface point of view, and inserting FX Bins "feels" even more... I don't know... WRONG. Again it's an interface/psychological thing.
Am I the only one who's facing this roadblock, or do others feel this as well?
Might just me my ADD creeping in.
Perhaps set up a project template up to your requirements. Every time you create a new track you could use a track template. It would be nice if you could get sonar to default to a track template for audio/midi/instrument. I don't think this is possible tight now is it?
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backwoods
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/18 19:11:20
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I understand where you're coming from PilotGav. Some things about PC are clumsy to me. I wish PC modules were accessible/draggable from browser like vsts. And I wish instead of inserting VST "bins" in PC we could just drag over a single effect and it would have the same kind of name/header bar as the PC modules have. Maybe make the header bar a different color for differentiating. currently I don't have a fixed MO- I use any and all methods. I also wish there was a single hotkey that cycled thru the inspector views.
post edited by backwoods - 2015/09/18 19:24:41
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Anderton
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/18 22:01:00
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I was raised on big mixers, so it makes sense to me. The PC is the mixer channel strips. The FX bin is the rack stuff that sat behind you or to the left or right of the console, where you had to use patch cords to patch into the inserts. Given that mindset, I tend to use the PC more for the set-and-forget processing like EQ, dynamics, and console emulation, and the FX bin for the weirdass [technical term  ] creative effects.
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stlstudio
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 03:52:18
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I want an ultimate version of Sonar that allows a blank prochannel to be customized with my waves plugins only. prochannel is limited in it's stock plugins and their abilities to add the colors, flavors, dynamics and dimensions to my tracks. ( who uses the same limited plugins on all projects?) In fact, I started buying waves plugins because the quadcurve eq frequency control (even with SHIFT held down does not give me the fine resolution I desire to EQ tracks. Double clicking on the frequency value gives me a scroll wheel to adjust frequencies in finer resolution but the change is not heard in real time, it is only heard after exiting the scroll wheel function. I've even purchased Sonar Artist to eliminate the prochannel altogether. I've been using cakewalk products since "Guitar Tracks" which is what I learned DAW recording on. "Simplicity is Genius." An added note: Sonar Artist still has sonitus eq inserted automatically on each track & now with the new "Ipswitch" update it's going the prochannel way. I desire no plugins automatically loaded in the prochannel or at least the ability to delete them all including the prochannel quadcurve eq. I just want a blank, (customizable with my plugins only) prochannel or no prochannel at all. I know I can create effects chains of my own plugins but the quadcurve Eq cannot be deleted from the prochannel and I don't like that at all.
post edited by stlstudio - 2015/09/19 04:24:11
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 04:54:07
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You do no that you can double click any of the numeric value fields on the QCEQ and enter whatever value you want.
You cannot get any more precise than that for fine editing
And you can customise a PC channel to hold exactly what you want (apart from the QCEQ) and set it as default?
Don't see the issue here
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John
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 11:57:02
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stlstudio
I want an ultimate version of Sonar that allows a blank prochannel to be customized with my waves plugins only.
prochannel is limited in it's stock plugins and their abilities to add the colors, flavors, dynamics and dimensions to my tracks. ( who uses the same limited plugins on all projects?)
In fact, I started buying waves plugins because the quadcurve eq frequency control (even with SHIFT held down does not give me the fine resolution I desire to EQ tracks. Double clicking on the frequency value gives me a scroll wheel to adjust frequencies in finer resolution but the change is not heard in real time, it is only heard after exiting the scroll wheel function. I've even purchased Sonar Artist to eliminate the prochannel altogether.
I've been using cakewalk products since "Guitar Tracks" which is what I learned DAW recording on.
"Simplicity is Genius."
An added note: Sonar Artist still has sonitus eq inserted automatically on each track & now with the new "Ipswitch"
update it's going the prochannel way. I desire no plugins automatically loaded in the prochannel or at least the ability to delete them all including the prochannel quadcurve eq. I just want a blank, (customizable with my plugins only) prochannel or no prochannel at all. I know I can create effects chains of my own plugins but the quadcurve Eq cannot be deleted from the prochannel and I don't like that at all.
What you want is the FX bin. Prochannel is for prochannel modules.
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Anderton
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 12:05:02
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^^^ This. ProChannel is a mixer channel strip, albeit much more flexible than the hardware equivalent.
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Kylotan
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 12:25:17
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For me, it's #4, insert FX only. I'm a computer musician foremost so I have no attachment or interest in the traditional mixing desk or indeed the Console View that emulates it. That means that I do all my work in Track View, with the controls next to the track, and this has only become more important to me in recent years as plugins have moved from simply being 'effects' to being instruments or simulations that sit squarely in the middle of an FX flow. I need to see those plugins clearly in Track View right alongside the track name, panning, and volume and have quick access to them and their properties, just like I have if I'm using a synth - not hidden away in an FX Chain in a ProChannel that I'll only see if I click on an individual track AND the Inspector is open. (And yes, having to insert FX Chains for each FX in the PC feels fiddly compared to just being able to insert individual VSTs.)
The ProChannel is out of sight, out of mind, and out of my workflow, sadly.
Now, if they were to replace the FX Bin with a minimised ProChannel, and let us mix and match PC modules and FX modules freely and conveniently in that bin... then things would be different.
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Beepster
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 16:02:40
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stlstudio
I want an ultimate version of Sonar that allows a blank prochannel to be customized with my waves plugins only.
prochannel is limited in it's stock plugins and their abilities to add the colors, flavors, dynamics and dimensions to my tracks. ( who uses the same limited plugins on all projects?)
In fact, I started buying waves plugins because the quadcurve eq frequency control (even with SHIFT held down does not give me the fine resolution I desire to EQ tracks. Double clicking on the frequency value gives me a scroll wheel to adjust frequencies in finer resolution but the change is not heard in real time, it is only heard after exiting the scroll wheel function. I've even purchased Sonar Artist to eliminate the prochannel altogether.
I've been using cakewalk products since "Guitar Tracks" which is what I learned DAW recording on.
"Simplicity is Genius."
An added note: Sonar Artist still has sonitus eq inserted automatically on each track & now with the new "Ipswitch"
update it's going the prochannel way. I desire no plugins automatically loaded in the prochannel or at least the ability to delete them all including the prochannel quadcurve eq. I just want a blank, (customizable with my plugins only) prochannel or no prochannel at all. I know I can create effects chains of my own plugins but the quadcurve Eq cannot be deleted from the prochannel and I don't like that at all.
1) Insert your third party/VST plugs into a Prochannel FX Chain Module 2) Map the most used/needed parameters of those plugins to the mappable buttons and dials of the module (admittadly a limited amount but enough to get most things done) 3) Insert that FX Chain module wherever the frack you want in the Prochannel 4) Remove all the other modules and for the ONE module that cannot be removed (the QuadCurve) minimize it so all you see is the bar indicating it's there. Now you can use whatever plugs you want right in the Prochannel strip. You can also constrain and program those dials and knobs in various ways so they respond how you want. You WON'T be able to see the plugin's GUI but you can't expect Cake to be able to cram those GUIs into such a limited space from all sorts of outside vendors (which is why we have specific PC modules) BUT you can open them whenever you need to and the dials in the PC will still work. I love the PC and really it's one of the best things about Sonar to me. It makes sense and now that we can move stuff wherever we want in the chain and insert other effects using the FX Chain modules I actually avoid the Bin/Rack whenever I can. I want to poke at something... "I" and it's there. I want it to go away "I" and it's gone. MUCH better than a pile of annoying plugin windows all over the damned place. I wish they'd work on the PC more to make it even more useful. The VST window recycler has been helping me out immensely too. Meh... different strokes and all that rot but really, don't think the PC can't help you with your stated desires. As far as I can tell from your post it can. And you get some useful (IMO) plugins to boot. I only load up non PC stuff when I absolutely need them. The PC stuff does most general tasks reasonably well if not REALLY well so why clutter up my project/workflow unnecessarily? It's a pardigm to be used or not used. To dismiss it entirely without really understanding it is silly. Cheers.
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Beepster
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 16:11:19
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Kylotan
For me, it's #4, insert FX only. I'm a computer musician foremost so I have no attachment or interest in the traditional mixing desk or indeed the Console View that emulates it. That means that I do all my work in Track View, with the controls next to the track, and this has only become more important to me in recent years as plugins have moved from simply being 'effects' to being instruments or simulations that sit squarely in the middle of an FX flow. I need to see those plugins clearly in Track View right alongside the track name, panning, and volume and have quick access to them and their properties, just like I have if I'm using a synth - not hidden away in an FX Chain in a ProChannel that I'll only see if I click on an individual track AND the Inspector is open. (And yes, having to insert FX Chains for each FX in the PC feels fiddly compared to just being able to insert individual VSTs.)
The ProChannel is out of sight, out of mind, and out of my workflow, sadly.
Now, if they were to replace the FX Bin with a minimised ProChannel, and let us mix and match PC modules and FX modules freely and conveniently in that bin... then things would be different.
I'm guilty of not using this feature myself but maybe the Console View Prochannel (the one that pops out beside strips in the CV) would fit your workflow? I need to figure out the bindings (if any) that manage those but having the PC open on strips is something I think would be a welcome addition to my mixing. I just don't know how to quickly open/close them individually or all at once. I'm pretty sure it can be done though. PS: I've never worked at length in front of hardware consoles but I think specifically BECAUSE of that is why I like the PC. The insert/tap point stuff regarding the FX Bin messes me up (Pre/Post). I don't have to think about that if nothing is in the bin. What I would REALLY like is to be able have a PC "Bin" module/placehlder that taps in the PC exactly where I want it to be AND be able to have multiple bins (like add a bin and point that elsewhere in the PC Chain). That however is almost EXACTLY what FX Chain modules do... so there isn't a huge need to have that coded in. Cheers.
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BobF
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 17:10:24
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I ignored PC for a long time because of the clumsiness. I totally hooked on it now though. If I'm not working directly on a clip, I'm using CV with all strips narrow. Click the little PC arrow to expand, do whatever, then click again to tuck it away.
I wish now I would have jumped on PC right away. Now that I've gotten used to it, it feels much more natural.
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John
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 17:38:09
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I have liked the PC from its first introduction in X1. I have used it a lot since. I guess I like it just the way it is.
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backwoods
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 17:47:44
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Hey John, the way it is is not the way it was. Originally, you could not insert FX chains (why not just be able to insert individual VSTs?) and the PC modules couldn't be minimized all at once (my suggestion got passed on by willy and changed that).
Do you think the earlier changes have improved PC John? Do you think some of the other ideas mooted here could improve it even more?
I hat to mention other DAWs but I think Sonar's PC could be greatly improved by apeing some of the Ableton workflow. Double Tap the header to max/min an effect. Press "backspace" on an effect to delete it. etc etc. Take a look.
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Zargg
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 17:56:06
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I work more or less only with PC. I fits my workflow perfectly. Wish there was (if there is not one already) a better / easier way to expand / close the PC modules.
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John
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 18:01:56
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You're right Backwoods. Then we knew no different when it came out. It was what it was. Now all of the tweaks make a big difference very useful. I don't want it to be just another FX bin. What I am saying is I like it as it is. Not every change would be a good one. I don't have any wish for more modules at present.
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Anderton
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 19:56:35
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backwoods
Double Tap the header to max/min an effect. Press "backspace" on an effect to delete it. etc etc. Take a look.
In SONAR it takes only one click, not two, to min/max a PC effect. As to Del, you can do that with the Del key in the FX bin, but not the ProChannel. However...in Live you have to click to give the effect the focus, then hit backspace. In SONAR, it's right-click on header, then select remove from context menu. In either case, it's two operations. When Live has the advantage with that protocol is if you want to remove lots of effects at once; where SONAR has the advantage is when you right-click, you can access a replacement effect immediately instead of having to remove and then drag/replace. When it comes to effects in Live, what I like best is that you can see several effects, depending on size, at the same time in the dock. Of course, the tradeoff is you see the full UI only for the Native Ableton effects.
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Anderton
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 20:01:58
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Kylotan
I'm a computer musician foremost so I have no attachment or interest in the traditional mixing desk or indeed the Console View that emulates it.
I think this could be an interesting discussion. I don't think those who use Console view do so because they're attached to mixing console hardware, but because of the associated workflow being optimized for mixing. Despite being raised on mixers, I used only Track View until the ProChannel/Inspector combination were introduced and even then, it took me a while to warm up to them. I forget whether Cubase or Logic invented the Inspector concept but to me it is brilliant, because it gives access to the "channel strip" whether I'm arranging/editing in Track View or mixing in Console view. Then again if it wasn't for the D shortcut, I'd probably be less likely to use Console view... Another aspect is more philosophical. I've always regarded a mix as a performance, and therefore like control surfaces. It's easier to have something on screen that correlates to the control surface...less mental gymnastics in the heat of the moment.
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backwoods
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 21:28:25
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Anderton
backwoods
Double Tap the header to max/min an effect. Press "backspace" on an effect to delete it. etc etc. Take a look.
In SONAR it takes only one click, not two, to min/max a PC effect. As to Del, you can do that with the Del key in the FX bin, but not the ProChannel. However...in Live you have to click to give the effect the focus, then hit backspace. In SONAR, it's right-click on header, then select remove from context menu. In either case, it's two operations. When Live has the advantage with that protocol is if you want to remove lots of effects at once; where SONAR has the advantage is when you right-click, you can access a replacement effect immediately instead of having to remove and then drag/replace.
When it comes to effects in Live, what I like best is that you can see several effects, depending on size, at the same time in the dock. Of course, the tradeoff is you see the full UI only for the Native Ableton effects.
I see your point craig :) I actually think double tapping a header is quicker than navigating to and single tapping those tiny little Prochannel arrows but I concede, by hard numbers, Sonar has Ableton beat. Again, I think giving focus and hitting backspace or delete is quicker than right click and choose from menu becuase both operations can be done pretty much simultaneously. I have grown to really like PChannel and that's why I **** about these seemingly trivial points! What else is there? I do wish they make PC effects draggable from broswer one day and then swapping out could be done by pulling one over another's header bar. Also dragging a vst onto a track puts it into the fx bin instead of inside Prochannel where I am most probably working. Really finding it hard to find things to **** about at this point!
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John T
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 21:43:34
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That's a really good point. It's taken me forever to get around to using the browser at all, didn't touch it for literally a couple of years. But I've got into it a lot more in the last few months. And PC modules not being in there is a strange omission.
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John T
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 21:50:28
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Anyway, in reply to the OP.
I'm kind of old school on this, I suppose. I have a default Pro Channel that goes EQ > SSL compressor (whatever that's called in Sonar) > Console Emulator set to S-Type.
I regard that as being basically like the channel strip on a console, and it's what I make the vast majority of my foundational mix moves on. If necessary, I'll add a gate at the top, and for vocals and bass I'll almost always swap out the compressor for the LA-2A emulation. But broadly, EQ and compression, like on an analogue desk.
Everything else usually goes in the FX bin. Which I see as more like insert points.
Some of this is just old habits dying hard, but actually, I think it's a solid convention. EQ and compression are your pots and pans and hotplates. Everything else is spices.
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John T
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 22:01:45
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Way back when I first studied sound engineering in the mid 90s, the course tutor really impressed on us the distinction between "processors" and "effects". I think the line between the two is fuzzy and porous, but it's a useful distinction, and I still approach things that way.
So I'll be a good hour or more into a mix without using anything more than the PC strip I describe above. I have a default basic reverb bus I kind of sketch things out on, that never survives to the end of the mix, but that's the only spice I'll use until I've got things working well with just balances, EQ and compression. Those are your processors; basic management of the tracks you've got to work with.
If you take that approach, the PC is a brilliant design; a simple tidy channel strip, albeit with lots of flexibility if you need it for a special case.
If you don't work like that, it probably feels like "why are there two FX bins?". I understand that; not everyone has to work the same way.
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Anderton
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 22:02:51
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Speaking of old habits, remember too that there's a rich history of how to do mixing with live sound, where time and immediacy are of the essence. The modern studio takes some of the pressure off, because you have as much time as you want. But, I believe we're often at our best when working without a net, taking chances, and slamming controls in fits of inspiration. (As a side note this is the beauty of Mix Recall. Take all the chances you want, then listen back the next day and decided which "performance" really did justice to the music.) For me, mixing with a mouse is like entering MIDI notes in step time. You can do it, but I'm not sure it's the best way to have fun. And I'm in this to have fun, because if I'm having fun, it increases the odds of the listeners having fun...another lesson from live performance . So I can relate to mixers. I see them as instruments...and if anyone has ever seen Dr. Walker (Ingmar Koch) live, then you know a mixer can be an instrument.
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eph221
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/19 22:06:38
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I totally understand what he's saying, although I can only commiserate. It's like decorating your house in primary colors...when everyone knows earth tones and pastels are the way to go.
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Kylotan
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/20 06:59:01
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Beepster
I'm guilty of not using this feature myself but maybe the Console View Prochannel (the one that pops out beside strips in the CV) would fit your workflow? No, because Console View is worthless to me. It just takes the mixing controls that I already have in Track View and makes them take up more space. Some people like that, but I have no use for it.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/20 07:07:44
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You can access the Pro Channel from the Inspector in track View.
Any use to you?
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Kylotan
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/20 07:14:17
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Anderton
I don't think those who use Console view do so because they're attached to mixing console hardware, but because of the associated workflow being optimized for mixing. I only see 2 aspects where Console View is optimised for mixing: (1) you can see the controls for more tracks at once, and (2) the faders and meters are bigger. The second doesn't interest me. The first would be useful, except I mix as I go along and rarely need to have my eye on all the tracks. I forget whether Cubase or Logic invented the Inspector concept but to me it is brilliant, because it gives access to the "channel strip" whether I'm arranging/editing in Track View or mixing in Console view. Apart from the ProChannel, everything in the Inspector is already right there in Track View in 'All' mode, with a couple of tiny exceptions (interleave, phase). It's not in a channel strip format, but I don't use mixing desks so that doesn't bother me. So I don't use the Inspector except where I'm now forced to (eg. Clip properties). This is a small step backwards in usability from 8.5.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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Kylotan
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/20 07:14:45
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Bristol_Jonesey
You can access the Pro Channel from the Inspector in track View.
Any use to you?
No (see above) :)
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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Anderton
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Re: Pro Channel and/or Inser FX feel messy
2015/09/20 11:10:15
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Kylotan
I only see 2 aspects where Console View is optimised for mixing: (1) you can see the controls for more tracks at once, and (2) the faders and meters are bigger. Both of which are important - (1) when you want to take in an overview of the project, including levels, metering, and EQ plots, and (2) for making fine adjustments. (FWIW you can make the meters longer in TV than in console view by using horizontal mode.) But the main feature CV has that TV doesn't have is the assignable FX faders. That's huge for real-time mix performances. Apart from the ProChannel, everything in the Inspector is already right there in Track View in 'All' mode, with a couple of tiny exceptions (interleave, phase). To me, that's the advantage. If the strips are all in narrow mode so I can see all my tracks spread across two monitors, it's very convenient to click on a channel and see the details in the Inspector rather than have to jump to TV (as well as have a place for entering notes and such). I find both CV and TV to be very useful, which is why I like the D command so much.
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