PeteL
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Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
Hi, I have a Kontakt library that requires loading 5 separate Kontakt nki instruments into a project in order to have all the possible articulations available for a flute part. I’m having trouble coming up with a workable way to deal with programming the MIDI flute part in this situation. I need to: - Be able to access each instrument and its various keyswitched articulations
- Easily be able to easily see which notes go to which instrument
Initially I thought to have the MIDI all on one track, and select notes or groups of notes, and using MIDI properties to send those selected notes (and associated keyswitches) to the MIDI channel corresponding to the desired nki flute instrument. Good so far. But … that leaves me unable to tell in the PRV which notes go to which MIDI channels/instruments. My second thought was perhaps I could just select notes (initially all residing on one MIDI track) and re-route them to one of 5 MIDI tracks (each track assigned to one of the 5 nki instruments). Then, because of track colors, I can easily see which note belongs to which track/instrument in PRV. But … the hitch there is that I can’t just cut and paste notes between channels in the PRV without setting the Now Time at the start of each cut and paste operation. (Paste only inserts at the Now Time, right?) Since I strive to humanize my MIDI tracks, barely anything will land right on an easily targeted snap subdivision, so each cut and paste becomes a tedious process of zooming in and setting the Now Time accurately to the start of the note(s) selection without snap active. I find either of these options less than ideal (you're either working "blind" with respect to where each note goes, or you're spending a lot of irritating time positioning the Now Time without a grid). Has anyone found a better (quick, efficient) way to deal with this situation while meeting the two goals above? (I sure hope so!)  Thanks for your help! Pete
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SquireBum
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/15 14:37:16
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Check out http://tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/. There is a MIDI fx plugin called Channel Switch that uses CC values to specify channel that seems like it would satisfy your needs. It is available in 32 and 64 bit versions. I have not tried this specific plugin, but I have used the CC Map 64-bit plugin with no problems. The plugins are Free to download and if you find them useful, you can Donate. The developer is a forum member: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3057137. Hope this helps, -- Ron
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ralf
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/15 15:16:50
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To move midi data from one track to another without changing the position, use the track view. There, you can drag selected midi events with the mouse and prevent position changes by holding the shift key.
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PeteL
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/15 15:17:53
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SquireBum Check out http://tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/. There is a MIDI fx plugin called Channel Switch that uses CC values to specify channel that seems like it would satisfy your needs. It is available in 32 and 64 bit versions. I have not tried this specific plugin, but I have used the CC Map 64-bit plugin with no problems. The plugins are Free to download and if you find them useful, you can Donate. The developer is a forum member: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3057137. Hope this helps, -- Ron
Thanks for the info SquireBum! I took a look at it, and it seems like it will easily channelize MIDI information. He has some other interesting plugins there too. But, it still doesn't really help my second requirement greatly, to be able to quickly and easily see where the notes are being sent. I'd have to have the controller lane for the plugin open, and with 5 regions within the controller data, it may not be instantly evident exactly which region (track/MIDI channel in my case) is selected especially if the controller lane is narrow due to others being displayed. It could be made to work, though, so thank you for pointing that plugin out to me. Hopefully someone out there is doing this an even better way. If they would only tell me ... Pete
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PeteL
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/15 15:24:44
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ralf To move midi data from one track to another without changing the position, use the track view. There, you can drag selected midi events with the mouse and prevent position changes by holding the shift key.
Yes, in the Track View you can easily constrain the horizontal movement when dragging notes. But I can only seem to drag the notes within the source track, not from the source track into a different track. Is there a method to do that I'm not aware of? [Edit: forgot to proofread, so fixed some typos.]
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brundlefly
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/15 16:04:33
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What happens when you try to Shift+drag between tracks? Should not be a problem. Alternatively, you can use a keybinding for 'Go to From' to set the Now time to the beginning of a selection to be Copy/Cut-Pasted. I have this bound to the original Pre-X1 assignment of F7, and use it frequently.
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PeteL
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/15 16:59:39
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brundlefly What happens when you try to Shift+drag between tracks? Should not be a problem.
The notes drag downward until they're at the bottom of the source track, and go no further, without ever crossing into the track below. If I let go of the mouse the dragged notes end up somewhere near the bottom of the source track. By the way, I'm setting the edit filter to "Notes" on all tracks involved in order to access the individual notes. brundlefly Alternatively, you can use a keybinding for 'Go to From' to set the Now time to the beginning of a selection to be Copy/Cut-Pasted. I have this bound to the original Pre-X1 assignment of F7, and use it frequently.
Now that is an awesome idea! It saves all the time of zooming in and manually fiddling the Now Time to the start of the note(s). Pete
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bitflipper
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/15 17:14:16
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Create a separate MIDI track for each articulation. Assign each of the .nki's to a separate MIDI channel and set the MIDI tracks accordingly. Select the portions of the main track that you want to have a particular articulation and drag them into the appropriate track. If you hold the SHIFT and CTL keys down while dragging, their vertical and horizontal positions will not change. Do this with grid snap disabled. This is the standard way it's been done for ages when using a library that has separate instruments for each articulation. There are other ways to do it, but they are all more complicated. Oh, and make sure you are not trying to do this with an instrument track.
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PeteL
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/15 17:40:29
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Hi Bit, I hadn't thought of doing it that way. Actually it's very similar to what my second thought was in my original post, except that instead of individual articulations on each track, I'd have individual instruments with about 6 keyswitchable unique articulations within each instrument. Doing it EXACTLY as you suggest would result in about 30 individual articulation tracks, equating to 30 nki's loaded into Kontakt instead of just 5 with 6 keyswitches each. I dunno ... that sounds a little less manageable than I hoped. Or maybe not. ??? Do you have a feel for the CPU/Memory impact of 30 nki's loaded vs. 5 with keyswitches? bitflipper Select the portions of the main track that you want to have a particular articulation and drag them into the appropriate track. If you hold the SHIFT and CTL keys down while dragging, their vertical and horizontal positions will not change. Do this with grid snap disabled.
Do you mean in the Track view with edit filters set to "Notes"? I can't seem to do that (see a few posts above). It seems like SONAR won't let my notes cross track boundaries. Any ideas on how to make that work? Others have mentioned doing that too. Pete
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gustabo
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/15 19:24:04
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/15 19:29:43
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I use a single midi track to record any articulation for a given instrument - the EastWest instruments seem to have on average the most articulations available for a given instrument in my collection, so for a violin instrument I will record note data on 1 midi track, and anytime I need a different articulation, that gets recorded on a 2nd midi track that also points to the same soft synth violin instrument. For me, I would have legato and differing levels of vibrato articulation data both recorded on that 2nd midi track for the violin sound, as it makes it pretty easy to see that one has been inserted. Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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PeteL
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/15 20:13:53
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robert_e_bone I use a single midi track to record any articulation for a given instrument - the EastWest instruments seem to have on average the most articulations available for a given instrument in my collection, so for a violin instrument I will record note data on 1 midi track, and anytime I need a different articulation, that gets recorded on a 2nd midi track that also points to the same soft synth violin instrument. For me, I would have legato and differing levels of vibrato articulation data both recorded on that 2nd midi track for the violin sound, as it makes it pretty easy to see that one has been inserted. Bob Bone
Bob, that's exactly the way I typically do it, and it works very well. Unfortunately for this particular library there is no one single instrument to load that contains all the articulations within the library. The articulations are distributed among 5 separate instruments, so to get all the possible articulations, I have to load all 5 flute software instruments, even though the samples and articulations are of one single physical instrument. That leaves me with 5 MIDI tracks with keyswitches for each, so with your and my usual setup that would amount to 10 MIDI tracks - a note track and a keyswitch track for each instrument ... and the issue of developing a reasonable and effective workflow on how to program the MIDI for this single flute part split between 10 tracks arises. I need to have a way to view all tracks at once (e.g. a cohesive view of the melody as well as keyswitches), and be able to easily assign any note to an articulation, which in my case, amounts to sending the MIDI note and associated keyswitch to one of the 5 MIDI instrument/keyswitch pairs. Do you follow what I'm saying? Unfortunately this library is not a simple one-instrument-contains-all-articulations case. As you described in your reply, dealing with the one instrument case is pretty easy and effective. I've been making some headway in figuring out the best way to do this, and I hope an acceptable final answer will arise. Feel free to suggest anything else in light of this being a similar, but more complicated case. Thanks, Pete
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/15 22:23:05
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Wow - that's a stumper - I would probably find a different flute instrument that was more easily controlled through articulations than that one. Have you tried contacting either the support folks for whoever makes that flute instrument, or perhaps posting on their user forums - or even contacting Native Instruments technical support to ask them for ideas? Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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ralf
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 05:09:30
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PeteL
ralf To move midi data from one track to another without changing the position, use the track view. There, you can drag selected midi events with the mouse and prevent position changes by holding the shift key.
Yes, in the Track View you can easily constrain the horizontal movement when dragging notes. But I can only seem to drag the notes within the source track, not from the source track into a different track. Is there a method to do that I'm not aware of? [Edit: forgot to proofread, so fixed some typos.]
You have to drag the clip at the top header, not the notes.
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PeteL
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 08:20:24
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Thanks Ralf, that works much better!
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PeteL
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 08:24:24
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robert_e_bone Wow - that's a stumper - I would probably find a different flute instrument that was more easily controlled through articulations than that one.
Yeah, but I chose the particular library based on sound after listening to many. Bummer. robert_e_bone Have you tried contacting either the support folks for whoever makes that flute instrument, or perhaps posting on their user forums - or even contacting Native Instruments technical support to ask them for ideas?
Yes, I've actually contacted the company twice. First time - no response. The second time was yesterday. I hadn't thought of NI support/forum, I will try that. Thanks again for your thoughts.
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Slugbaby
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 08:37:42
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Why can't you include the key switches on the same MIDI track as the notes? That's what I do. I've never used a flute, but for the Kontakt instruments I do have, all the key switches are in the lowest octave of instructions, which won't overlap with what the flute is playing. It won't resolve your problem, but will half your number of tracks...
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PeteL
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 09:04:53
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Slugbaby Why can't you include the key switches on the same MIDI track as the notes?
I prefer the keyswitches on a different track because then that track can be assigned to a drum map which has the articulation names displayed rather than just ... well ... notes. It makes it really easy: in the PRV I have articulation names up top (drum map) and the musical notes below. Need a staccato articulation? Just draw the keyswitch on the line labelled Staccato. Doing it this way also makes it easier to line up keyswitches with notes since you don't have to zoom out and scroll downward to see both in one window. Try it!
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Slugbaby
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 09:17:05
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I've never thought of adding the keyswitch names to a map. Good idea! That'll save a lot of back-and-forth when I'm programming. You could still do it on one track (i think) by creating a "flute map" that is just the notes and keyswitches listed. There are 3 panels in the PRV - one for the piano roll notes, one for a map, and one that shows velocities. By using them in the same PRV, splitting the view screen vertically, you could see the notes aligned to piano keys, and still have the mapped/named keyswitches. EDIT: I'm not at my DAW right now to confirm, so i may be wrong. You MIGHT have to direct the MIDI track to a "flute map" with the key switches, and then reroute it to the synth once you've programmed the switches...
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PeteL
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 09:30:11
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Slugbaby You could still do it on one track (i think) by creating a "flute map" that is just the notes and keyswitches listed. There are 3 panels in the PRV - one for the piano roll notes, one for a map, and one that shows velocities. By using them in the same PRV, splitting the view screen vertically, you could see the notes aligned to piano keys, and still have the mapped/named keyswitches. EDIT: I'm not at my DAW right now to confirm, so i may be wrong. You MIGHT have to direct the MIDI track to a "flute map" with the key switches, and then reroute it to the synth once you've programmed the switches...
I was about to ask "how the heck you could do that?" when I noticed your edit. As far as I know, you are correct in the edit. If a track is assigned to a drum map, you will not be able to place "piano key notes", which is why I think I went the two-track route long ago. I did try, though, assigning the whole track to a map with named keyswitches and note names (C#1, D1, D#1, etc), and that'll work, but you lose the nice "piano key" display. Doing it as in your edit would solve that, but then you're back to 10 tracks at the start.
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bitflipper
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 10:32:51
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PeteL Do you have a feel for the CPU/Memory impact of 30 nki's loaded vs. 5 with keyswitches?
It depends on the instrument(s), but consider this: a single instrument with many articulations necessarily has the same total number of samples as separate instruments with one articulation each. There is some additional memory overhead for each instrument, but compared to the RAM requirements of the samples themselves, it's trivial. You might even save some memory using individual instruments, at least until you purge unused samples, because that big do-everything library is likely to load articulations you won't be using. More significant might be the additional CPU usage of each Kontakt instance. It is more efficient CPU-wise to have 16 instruments loaded into 1 instance than it is to have 16 instances of Kontakt with 1 instrument each. It logically follows then that 5 instruments in one Kontakt instance will be more CPU-efficient than 30 instruments in 2 Kontakt instances. But it won't be twice as CPU-expensive, though. Maybe only 5-10% less efficient (that's just a guess). Not enough of a cost to trump ease-of-use. For example, you may find it necessary at some point to start freezing tracks. Then you'll be glad you have multiple Kontakt instruments that can be frozen independently. On the subject of giving keyswitches their own MIDI tracks, I too am a fan of the technique. There are many benefits. Say I'm doing a string arrangement; I'll have 8 or 10 tracks in a track folder: 1st violins, 1st violin keyswitches, 2nd violins, 2nd violin keyswitches, etc. I can then show just what I need to show in the PRV. For example, I might overlay my 1st and 2nd violin keyswitch tracks to make sure their articulations match. Sometimes, the keyswitches are mapped so low on the keyboard that it's impossible to see them and the instrument notes at the same time. But because my keyswitches are on their own tracks, I can move them up in the PRV and transpose them down to their proper values in the track header. And, as noted earlier, you can use drum maps to keep them straight when there are a bunch of them.
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PeteL
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 11:14:31
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IGNORE THIS MESS ... The formatting is fixed in the next post! Sorry! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Bit! Your explanations are always enlightening! I appreciate the time you took to explain that. But here's an issue with the library in question: bitflipper It depends on the instrument(s), but consider this: a single instrument with many articulations necessarily has the same total number of samples as separate instruments with one articulation each. [/quote The library in question has 5 instruments of 6 unique keyswitched articulations each. The only way I currently see to make tracks correspond to a single articulation is to load each of the 5 instruments 6 times each, and manually pressing the appropriate GUI button to set the desired articulation for the track/instrument instance. That will lead to the 30 tracks previously discussed. But, unfortunately, each of the 6 instances required to separate the articulations within the instrument will also contain the samples for the other 5 (unused in the single-articulation track) articulations. That will obviously take up more memory! Ideally one could purge the 5 unused articulations per single-articulation track, but I'm not sure how readily that is done. I envision having to first write and play a "Prepare for Purge" sequence a particular articulation track in order to exercise every single sample within the articulation to be contained in the track, and then purging and saving the single-articulation-instrument. Not only would I have to determine how many velocity levels need to be exercised within the "Prepare for Purge" sequence, I'd also have to exercise round robins, legato/non-legato, and probably other samples within the articulation. Boy this is getting complex! Maybe I should just stick to a single articulation/velocity and create "robot music!"  Seriously, though, I'm currently leaning toward 5 tracks for the 5 instruments (and associated keyswitch tracks), as I keep finding ways to make that scheme work easier. For instance I've found (thanks to this thread) that I can now quickly copy-cut/paste from one track to another in PRV at the exact same timing by (1) selecting notes, (2) SHIFT-G to automatically set the Now Time to the start of the selection, (3) CTRL+C, (4) click the destination track in PRV, and (5) CTRL+v. That is actually quicker done than said. But still thinking and optimizing the workflow ... Pete [EDIT - For some reason the formatting has gotten all dorkec up when displayed, even though everything looks OK in the edit mode. I'll try posting it again below.]
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PeteL
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 11:24:57
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Thanks Bit! Your explanations are always enlightening! I appreciate the time you took to explain that. But here's an issue with the library in question: bitflipper It depends on the instrument(s), but consider this: a single instrument with many articulations necessarily has the same total number of samples as separate instruments with one articulation each.
The library in question has 5 instruments of 6 unique keyswitched articulations each. The only way I currently see to make tracks correspond to a single articulation is to load each of the 5 instruments 6 times each, and manually pressing the appropriate GUI button to set the desired articulation for the track/instrument instance. That will lead to the 30 tracks previously discussed. But, unfortunately, each of the 6 instances required to separate the articulations within the instrument will also contain the samples for the other 5 (unused in the single-articulation track) articulations. That will obviously take up more memory! Ideally one could purge the 5 unused articulations per single-articulation track, but I'm not sure how readily that is done. I envision having to first write and play a "Prepare for Purge" sequence a particular articulation track in order to exercise every single sample within the articulation to be contained in the track, and then purging and saving the single-articulation-instrument. Not only would I have to determine how many velocity levels need to be exercised within the "Prepare for Purge" sequence, I'd also have to exercise round robins, legato/non-legato, and probably other samples within the articulation. Boy this is getting complex! Maybe I should just stick to a single articulation/velocity and create "robot music!" Seriously, though, I'm currently leaning toward 5 tracks for the 5 instruments (and associated keyswitch tracks), as I keep finding ways to make that scheme work easier. For instance I've found (thanks to this thread) that I can now quickly copy-cut/paste from one track to another in PRV at the exact same timing by (1) selecting notes, (2) SHIFT-G to automatically set the Now Time to the start of the selection, (3) CTRL+C, (4) click the destination track in PRV, and (5) CTRL+v. That is actually quicker done than said. But still thinking and optimizing the workflow ...
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bitflipper
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 11:35:02
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Ah, I misunderstood your challenge initially. I thought the problem was that the instruments were not keyswitched but required separate instruments for each articulation. That used to be a common practice before Kontakt became the standard it is today. But if the instruments support keyswitching, even partially, then that greatly simplifies the solution. If switching articulations requires manually clicking on a button in the UI, then I'd suggest automating that button push. Pretty much any control in Kontakt can be linked to a MIDI CC value and automated.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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PeteL
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 11:52:46
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I understand your misunderstanding, Bit!  Many people probably have not quite understood - I found this to be a very difficult problem to put into clear, concise words. To add a little more information: each of the 5 instruments contain 6 different articulations (of the 30 total), ARE keyswitched between the 6 articulations contained within. One complication, though, is that the keyswitches within each instrument reside on C0-F0 and not remappable. So articulations 1-6 are on C0-F0 on instrument #1, articulations 7-12 are on C0-F0 on instrument #2, and so on. In itself, this is not that bad, until it comes to workflow. I typically would write a section of melody, and then assign keyswitch articulations to some notes. But with the 5 instruments required to get all 30 articulations at your disposal, I have to assign to first an instrument (differentiated by MIDI track) and then the keyswitch within the instrument. And for editing purposes I need to PRV to clearly display (via color) which instrument and keyswitch a note is being sent to giving me both a coherent view of the melody and how it is articulated. That last sentence is the puzzle to be solved. And as I said, using 5 instrument and 5 keyswitch tracks shown on the PRV is looking more and more workable. I just need to work out a few awkward editing actions that probably could be optimized or streamlined. Maybe someday I'll make some actual music - haha! Pete
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 12:05:25
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You should be able to create a drum map to control the articulations. Just map them in groups of 5 to address the different instruments in Kontakt: they can then all be displayed simultaneously in the map which you can show above your regular Midi (Note) tracks below in the PRV.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 12:05:33
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You should be able to create a drum map to control the articulations. Just map them in groups of 5 to address the different instruments in Kontakt: they can then all be displayed simultaneously in the map which you can show above your regular Midi (Note) tracks below in the PRV.
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PeteL
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 12:17:09
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You mean when creating the drum map set up 30 unique keyswitches (one for each articulation), route them to the appropriate MIDI channel (instrument), and remap the notes to the appropriate note in the range of C0-F0? If so, THAT IS BRILLIANT! I was just setting up something similar, but not with all the conveniences you mention (if I'm understanding correctly). Time to go edit that ...
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bitflipper
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 12:36:45
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I don't know if this will help you or not, but you'll probably find it interesting regardless. He's using a large number of individual instruments, many for specific articulations. This particular collection utilizes a technique I like a lot, using velocity rather than keyswitches to change articulations. (Start saving up, it's a $1700 library.)
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Slugbaby
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Re: Programming a Single MIDI Part Requiring Multiple Kontakt Instruments
2017/01/16 13:20:46
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PeteL You mean when creating the drum map set up 30 unique keyswitches (one for each articulation), route them to the appropriate MIDI channel (instrument), and remap the notes to the appropriate note in the range of C0-F0? If so, THAT IS BRILLIANT! I was just setting up something similar, but not with all the conveniences you mention (if I'm understanding correctly). Time to go edit that ...
That would make sense - you can specify the sending channel for each note within the map. ANOTHER good idea from this thread!
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