Proposed changes to PianoRoll pattern...

http://www.cakewalk.com/support/featurerequest.asp

---?---um, where would the flats and sharps be on the note grid in the Piano View---?---Sitting balanced on the cracks between the white notes---?

Randy
rbowser

Sure...I'm serious, no Q about that, so,please...stop giggling! :) Back to work:

Of course all half notes go into its lanes. The white keys/notes into its white lanes and the black keys/ 3 or b onto the lines. How else, hey?

The black lines (depicting black keys) would (also thicker drawn for speedy orientation) would be lighter in color than the notes. Thus this kind of notation would virtually mirror the keyboard! Got it now? [ 8D]

PS. In case there are any other probs, rest assured I got a cure worked on each of them; i.e. I did my homework on it! :)

Here's another pic of it with inserted notes:

[image] [/image] Here you can exactly see which note means which key... or don't you see it?

Important Note: To make the pattern look even more keyboard alike, a doted line can be inserted between notes e & f and b & c.
What do you say now? You bet I'm serious about it?

Why is that? It fact it merely mirrors the keyboard!!! If this confuses you... I'm sure any keyboard must be confusing to you, too. :)

Think again: it only shows the actual position of the notes on the keys... What could be more logical? Of course if you have studied and used conventional for decades, it might be hard to acknowledge the merits of uncomplicated notation of logical sorts.

I think the current rendition, with shaded bars for the black keys, and white bars for the white keys makes sense.

How can it... please reconsider: The pattern as is in the present piano roll is unequal, because the spaces are different from the actual keyboard pattern. I.e. the white keys are together (at least in the pattern) and the black keys are not directly dividing the white keys as shown in the piano roll. That's rather confusing... because it's different from the keyboard pattern.
Whereas my pattern makes the visual transfer of notes to keys almost natural. After getting used to the spaces of my piano roll pattern, you'll learn to gauge and transfer the distances between the notes to the keyboard. Just keep looking at the piano roll and play the keyboard (!) Presto, even laymen (like me: jdrinda.tripod.com) won't have excuses anymore for being notation illiterate. ¿Que mas quieres? jjj fom Chile

Still not good enough, because (as mentioned) the black keys divide the keyboard pattern on the current piano roll, making visual gauging of distances incompatible with the actual keyboard pattern, where all white keys are together (not visually divided by black keys).

That's why the only way to represent a continues keyboard pattern is by showing the black keys as just lines.
I know, it takes a while to realize this subtlle difference... Mind you, I couldn't figure it out in 5 minutes, either! :) One thing is clear: Albeit I cannot figure out conventional notation in (e.g.) f#, yet if the same is represented in my suggested notation, I have no trouble to play the correct notes. That's a remarkable progress for hobby musicians or don't you agree? Let profi musicians waste their time with awkward notations...

That's merely a designer's task, because the current piano roll doesn't support this either- or?
My idea is only suited for keyboard players... using piano style keyboards. I didn't see many different piano style keyboards than the ones 'normal pianos' use, did you? Tell me about.

Regardless of what you like and what we like, the only way you can propose changes is thru that link I provided. We're users, not programmers for Cakewalk.

Once again....

Here's the keyboard pattern of the current PianoRoll. Visibly irregular; hardly suited to gauge/transfer distances from this pattern to the keyboard:

[image][/image]

Now, here's my suggested PianoRoll pattern, ideally suited to visibly gauge & transfer distances from this pattern to the keyboard, for it virtually mirrors the keyboard pattern ( ! )

[image][/image]

Note: Please copy and enlarge the patterns, because here they are shown a bit too small.

That's why it could be made an OPTION so, that we both are happy... :)

rBowser:

length of notes ... they elongated vertically?

Correct! Their length can be adjusted as not to take up to much space.

depicted in a logical linear flow, horizontally

An OPTION would allow you to switch to your preference. To use the PianoRoll as notation my proposed pattern is far superior (as already detailed) to the current pattern.

constantly scrolling down to see the end of notes

Not really, because basically it would offer the same display surface as now; in horizontal mode.

sharps and flats balancing on the thin dividing lines... The current style of the Piano View... is an "exploded" keyboard view where all notes have equal importance visually---as they should.

Well, the OPTION offers you that, but for using the PianoRoll as notation
the PianoRoll's pattern must necessarily equal the actual keyboard pattern... or else you won't be able to visually gauge and transfer the distances between notes from the PianoRoll to your keyboard.
That means, the current PianoRoll pattern isn't suited for this purpose, due to it's visually incompatible pattern with the keyboard. The distances between notes are different from the distances of the actual keys on the keyboard... That's the point.
The great advantage of it all is the logically arranged notation pattern over conventional notation, which is (illogical) very hard to learn and requires years of practice, whereas my proposed pattern allow laymen to immeadiately recognize which notes depict which key on the keyboard. Conventional notation doesn't offer us this advantage. Most hobby musicians don't aim for a musicianship...
[image] [/image]

This is how my proposed pattern OPTION should look to mirror the keyboard (of course the 3-line color should be less intense as to highlight the notes):

I hope this clarifies your concerns... Regards, jjj

Thanking you for the kind words...
Surprise, surprise! >>> I just got an email from a friend showing me a PianoRoll pattern from MasterWorks, which is almost what I'm after... (Beside: Jeeze, I so often reinvented the wheel! It's the same with the piped vacuum system I thought I invented, only to discover that commercial units are available... Still mine is cheaper and better, because I can insert any vacuum cleaner: not depending on their monopoly service. Also I pride myself having thought it up myself.) Same here, I'm not angry at MasterWorks; shows that they are pretty spot on. Here's a picture of it:

[image] [/image]
Oh, it came out nicely... I inserted the connection lines for easier reading.

Sorry, Randy, I thought I mentioned it (but didn't) that I turned the picture around... 'my way', but the rest is as MasterWorks put it, appart from those few connection lines I inserted for faster reading.
As mentioned, it should be an OPTION; not changing the piano roll pattern, people got used to.
Also the timing would be unimportant, because it only limits the page space. Once the playing of the right notes is practiced, the user already knows how the song should sound.

On a second thought, I don't think it's not really necessary to read the notes from top to down, because one gets used to gauge and transfer the visible distances between notes to the keybard either way. Also it would shorten the page as the monitor is shorter in heights.

Actually, all I wanted to point out is... that the piano roll pattern could be used to learn the notation of a new song and so, improve on musical skillls. For decades I used to play the accordion by ear, because I found traditional notation too complicated and illogical. Yet, playing by ear one tends to fall into the same playing patterns, whereas playing 'programmed music' (i.e. notation) one can notably improve one's playing skills. Computers now offer us this chance; so, let's grab it! :)

I tell you the truth: The problem with me is that I never held much of music theory; I would call myself rather a 'natural musician'. Thus far I never felt compelled to study even the basics of it. It was just in me. I performed with world renown musicians and they failed to notice that my music education consisted of a merely visit to the crématoire, instead the conservatoire... :)
Yet, when it comes to playing a keyboard instrument that's where I see the need to get into 'musical mathematics' or notation.
Still, I refuse to learn the rudiment of that awkward traditional notation. It's just boring! Just, because someone started the 5 line notation pattern and than added # and b to indicate half tunes, I have to struggle to put up with it.
Klavarscribo is probably what I have to look at, albeit I was looking for something simpler, as mentioned all along.
Basically, I love the idea of transferring the distances between notes to the keyboard.
I reckon that can only be the most logical way to go about in music notation. It's virtually wysiwyg of notation!
On the other hand I can understand people, who wasted years of mastering traditional notation; they wouldn't want to give it away... even you offer them the best notation. That's how this awkward, traditional notation is perpetuated.
I'm not stuck up like that; always ready for innovation and progress! How about you? You sound like it, but... maybe you are forced to rather conform to business considerations or other priorities? Not so with me. I apply my musical intuition creatively in a natural way, unhampered by marketing pressures etc. I even turned down various offers for that same reason. Yes, there was a time I aspired for stardom. I went to NY and about to form a band, but then I met a wonderful lady and decided to form a lasting, wonderful relationship, instead ... and now landed in Chile for good. In NYC I was invited by the club of NY-rock musos and five rock- bands offered me their (lots of greenbacks) schedules and employment. Sadly, it wasn't that kind of 'noise' I was keen to perform.
I still am musically very much excitable and active. I guess that won't ever change, but now I gotten very exigent/ demanding in the kind of music I call ‘good music’.
Don’t take my word; rather go to my website (http://jdrinda.tripod.com) and down in the same page and click onto: To enjoy longer samples, click HERE.
Albeit I cannot guarantee you that you’ll enjoy this kind of music… but hey, I happen to call it ‘good music’, because it's atistically demading I perform it with heart & soul. I suppose what each of us calls ‘good music’ is a complicated matter and easily offends, yet still… honesty is required. To choose my backing music, I went to sound libraries and took some 15 CD’s with me home, from which I usually only selected 1 or 2 pieces; not often non. The worst was that several orchestras performed the same piece. Then I had the task to select the best recording. Hence, my preference goes to music enjoyable to listen to. Most of the music is only challenging for the musicians; sorry, not my kind. Trusting you enjoyed my entertainment... jjj

Sorry, I won't be able to do it all... because I'm rather busy to get my contentment fine-tuned. That's why I came here to try to convince equal-minded musos of the need for some logical notation, which anyone can read without a doctorate…
Unfortunately, it’s not to be and so, my mission of finding such a notation continues. Now I wrote a letter to the owner of MusicMasterWorks. If that fails I’ll have investigate what Klavarscribo’s free software offers. One way or the other I’ll have to progress. It was nice communicating with you… Kind Regards, jjj

I suppose nobody 'has' to learn to read music, but it's worth the small effort required to learn. There really is logical elegance to the system. It's not as arbitrary as it may seem at a glance. As a practical matter I can write much much faster with a notation program than I can with any company's piano roll implementation. By the way, learning to read music isn't like learning to read Latin. You could learn to read music in a weekend.