Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen?

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vintagevibe
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2008/10/12 15:09:10 (permalink)

Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen?

Protools 8 LE/MPowered now has Sibelius notation features. It's sad when such an inexpensive (and crippled) app passes Sonar in such an important function. If Digidesign bought Sibelius and implimented it in Protools one must assume that there is a market and professional need for usable notation. Sonar is now the only one of the big 4 (Sonar, Protools, Cubase & Logic) that lacks professional notation features. When will Cakewalk listen to the notation people?

p.s. Let's please not start the "it's not a notation app" silliness. Of course it's not.
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    robert.t
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 15:19:44 (permalink)
    Firstly, i would like to point out that i agree with the fact that cake really need to update their staff view. Its been on the top of my list of improvements i would like since i fist started out with sonar 3. Im not desperately looking to be able to display every articulation mark that exists, but simple things like not displaying duplets correctly is incredibly annoying! this may have been fixed in S8 for all i know, but to the best of my knowledge, it has not.

    NB: i just thought i would point out that pro tools did not buy sibelius. Avid (the company who own digi) bought sibelius. I know its just a technicality, and you probably already knew that (we all type still things accidently!!), but i wouldnt want anyone getting the wrong idea!

    Rob

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    maxsax
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 16:19:38 (permalink)
    1+
    Sonar is now the only one of the big 4 (Sonar, Protools, Cubase & Logic) that lacks professional notation features. When will Cakewalk listen to the notation people?

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    fcarosone
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 16:25:59 (permalink)
    I too agree, I would like it and it wouldn't be that difficult to include; but I recall that cakewalk did a survey among us users about classical notation use, not long ago. I applied for the form, and crossed fingers: what I mean is that they must have gained some insight into the feature, perhaps a statistical base rather than a single post like yours. If they didn't propose an upgrade to their staff view, I guess perhaps there's simply because little users interested in that, being the solid platform using sonar another kind of beast.. just my opinion though.
    f

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    slartabartfast
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 18:21:50 (permalink)
    Maybe, but it is also possible that they do not have the talent in-house to do the job, or the budget to farm it out. Good notation software is a different sort of animal than good recording software, the programmer/designer skillset/experience is just different in focus. My guess is that the Cakewalk programming crew would find it easier to come up with new audio features than to put together a graphics/printing app.

    ORIGINAL: fcarosone

    I too agree, I would like it and it wouldn't be that difficult to include; but I recall that cakewalk did a survey among us users about classical notation use, not long ago. I applied for the form, and crossed fingers: what I mean is that they must have gained some insight into the feature, perhaps a statistical base rather than a single post like yours. If they didn't propose an upgrade to their staff view, I guess perhaps there's simply because little users interested in that, being the solid platform using sonar another kind of beast.. just my opinion though.
    f

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    robert.t
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 18:33:57 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: slartabartfast

    Maybe, but it is also possible that they do not have the talent in-house to do the job, or the budget to farm it out. Good notation software is a different sort of animal than good recording software, the programmer/designer skillset/experience is just different in focus. My guess is that the Cakewalk programming crew would find it easier to come up with new audio features than to put together a graphics/printing app.



    Yes i agree to a certain extent. Cake are traditionally a midi sequencing company right??? Therefore it should not be beyond their skill set to get staff view to display duplets. Im not asking for a full notation package (im not sure if i would want cake to spend loads of time doing this) as i am perfectly happy using sibelius for producing scores. However, i would like to be able to do the basic things correctly. ie input and read midi data accurately in staff view.
    post edited by robert.t - 2008/10/12 18:37:01

    Rob

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    Vovchik
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 18:38:53 (permalink)
    Cakewalk once had a program named Overture, now it belongs to some different company. It was not top-notch notator, but definitely did the job. So no need to reinvent the wheel, just use old development.

    For me, it would be enough to improve only two aspects of the notation department in Sonar: A) tuplets and B) note spacing.

    If It Ain't Broken, Don't Fix It
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    vintagevibe
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 18:55:04 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: robert.t

    NB: i just thought i would point out that pro tools did not buy sibelius. Avid (the company who own digi) bought sibelius. I know its just a technicality, and you probably already knew that (we all type still things accidently!!), but i wouldnt want anyone getting the wrong idea!



    True. I wrote faster than I thought.
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    vintagevibe
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 18:58:25 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: fcarosone
    ...but I recall that cakewalk did a survey among us users about classical notation use, not long ago. I applied for the form, and crossed fingers: what I mean is that they must have gained some insight into the feature, perhaps a statistical base rather than a single post like yours. If they didn't propose an upgrade to their staff view, I guess perhaps there's simply because little users interested in that, being the solid platform using sonar another kind of beast.. just my opinion though.
    f



    I filled out the survey as well. It just seems to me that it would make Sonar more of a serious scoring tool with some attention to notation.
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    MaestroGeek
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 19:06:42 (permalink)
    Cakewalk just needs to go out and purchase MakeMusic/Finale!
    I noticed on my demo disc of Sibelius 5, it was mentioned as being a part of AVID. Well, I guess the trend in the industry is 'total integration of everything.' Perhaps Microsoft will buy out Cakewalk and make it into its version of 'Garage Band!'
    Hostile take over everywhere, it's 1980's all over again!

    On a serious note, Avid taking over Sibelius...I wonder how much of Sibelius would be integrated/included with ProTools LE/M-Powered. As a owner of Sibelius 5, that certainly does open up another setup possibility.

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    gordonrussell76
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 19:10:20 (permalink)
    Hmm

    I have no use for notation, now before I get flamed, I totally understand that for many its there bread and butter to be able to notate well. However it all comes down to cost and statistics.

    If the upgrade price of Sonar, or the overall cost of first purchase, then someone like myself may bault at it, becuase I would be paying for functionality i would not be using.

    I would guess that many users are like me they use Sonar as a demoing/recording studio. To flesh out ideas and/or take them to completion. For most of us that will be within the arena of capturing and editing performance, most often by ear rather than by notation. I cannot even read music, let alone score it. However I can put together a pretty decent string section by ear.

    Sorry if this is alittle bit rambling, but I guess what I am saying is that it really should be questionnair based, ie a statistical analysis of hte Cake user base as to who would really like to see this functionality.

    If 70% want to see it, brilliant then do it. If 10% want it i would say no, if say 40% wanted it, then code it, but its available as a paid for upgrade bit like the MP3 option. This would also suit another subset of the userbase who while wanting to use notation software, already own there own preferred notation software, for example Sibelius :) and therefore don't want to pay for something they too won't be using.

    Hope that all made sense :)
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    robert.t
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 19:16:52 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: vintagevibe

    I filled out the survey as well. It just seems to me that it would make Sonar more of a serious scoring tool with some attention to notation.


    I dont think cake are aiming to make sonar a serious scoring tool, and i dont think they should do either. However, many users, even those like myself who use another application for scoring, would like to be able to do the basics inside of sonar.

    Rob

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    fastelder
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 20:51:19 (permalink)
    There must be more than a few who use or could use decent notation. I see this pop up rather frequently. Regrdless,of how little or how much someone could use it though, the fact remains that it is the single most ignored feature. Nothing has really happened in the last several versions. Even more disappointing, is the new highly touted V-Studio700. A close look at the Access Panel shows a button to switch to aal the different views EXCEPT Notation!

    If I had to venture a guess, it would be that Cakewalk NEVER will do anything with notation. I don't know why they would take this position, especially in light of the comments about other products, I wonder what they see that Cakewalk doesn't?

    Ed

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    InstrEd
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 20:55:08 (permalink)
    Alex chimed in with the pre-release of Sonar 8. I said I hope Sonar 8 finally has notation improvements. He said I be disappionted.
    But then said they couldn't implement notation the way they want to. I take it that is will be like the MIDI implementation in Sonar 7. They gave us more in that department. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed for version 9. And with Avid's move with ProTools I believe that we will have notation improvements by version 9.

    As far as a full notation program. No I don't need that. I have Finale 2009 and I be happy with Sonar adding Music XML support. I find it easier to screw around in Sonar then in finale when trying to mock up some parts for church musicians. Then when I need to move over to Finale, I find myself just printing out of Sonar and re-entering in Finale.

    I think Cakewalk would do good to add Notation improvement along with more Song-Writing style sheets (for lack of a better term)
    This way Chorus, Verse, Chorus would make navigation better. I know there are markers, but to have a dialog box to input data would be great. Don't know if I'm making myself clear or not.

    Ed
    Ed
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    fastelder
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 21:03:48 (permalink)
    Yeah, I agree. I've always said that Cakewalk should never be a replacement for a full notation program, but printing simple scores would be great. If they could ever do a decent transfer, like music XML and give a little more flexibility to control printing, that would make me pretty happy.

    Printing a readable 4 part score kills way too many trees.

    Ed

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    barlowjam
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 21:17:08 (permalink)
    I have long gotten the impression that the developers really underestimate the musical training and needs of those who use their software. Maybe the whole staff should be required to take some music theory/composition classes.

    Not sure if their lack of knowledge is the reason (I doubt it actually) but the staff view feature, as a means to group and print various parts for others to read/play, absolutely SUCKS!!!!!!!! Why would such obviously talented and capable musicians create a notation program that is soooo limited?

    IMHO - THERE IS NO SINGLE AREA IN THE ENTIRE PROGRAM THAT HAS MORE POTENTIAL FOR IMPROVMENT AND AS SUCH THE ABILITY TO ATTRACT MORE UPDATES/NEW CUSTOMERS THAN THIS ONE.

    Really Cake, some of us really do still read music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    (okay, I feel better now). Still LOVE the program - very much.
    post edited by barlowjam - 2008/10/12 21:46:13
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    slartabartfast
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 21:21:57 (permalink)
    I did not know this:

    http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/SWOV/default.asp

    In that case, it is possible that Cakewalk signed a sales agreement incuding language not to compete with the company they sold their stuff to. It would be very unlikely that they could use the work they put into a product they sold to improve a product they retain. They might even be inhibited from developing in this area because of considerations of being accused of violating their sales agreement or re-using code that they had ostensibly sold.


    ORIGINAL: Vovchik

    Cakewalk once had a program named Overture, now it belongs to some different company. It was not top-notch notator, but definitely did the job. So no need to reinvent the wheel, just use old development.

    For me, it would be enough to improve only two aspects of the notation department in Sonar: A) tuplets and B) note spacing.

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    InstrEd
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 21:51:36 (permalink)
    If they could ever do a decent transfer, like music XML and give a little more flexibility to control printing, that would make me pretty happy.


    +100,000,000,000

    Still praying and hoping that Cakewalk and Finale can communicate in the future, beside basic MIDI import/export.

    Ed
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    Susan G
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/12 23:48:15 (permalink)
    Hi Francesco-

    I would like it and it wouldn't be that difficult to include

    It's hard to let that pass! It depends very much on how far they want to take it. There are some very sophisticated notation programs out there which are relatively expensive, and I'm pretty sure the developers do consider their assignment at least "challenging", probably "difficult"! Alex Westner from Cakewalk chimed in on a thread shortly after S8 was released saying basically they're evaluating again where they want to go with this in SONAR. I got the impression that the survey they did a while back gave them valuable customer feedback, but they're still not committed to one route or another.

    I'd definitely like to see some improvements in SONAR's notation, but as I said in I think it was that same thread, it does open a can o' worms, and I can see how some Users who have no need for it at all wouldn't want to pay for it.

    BTW, I don't use all the features/plugins in SONAR by any stretch, either.

    -Susan

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    dbmusic
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/13 02:17:41 (permalink)
    Notation? I don't need no stinking notation!

    Seriously, I hope you guys who need this get what you want. But I would guess it doesn't get fixed because most people just don't care.

    DB Music

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    Susan G
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/13 02:27:45 (permalink)
    Hi Danny-
    But I would guess it doesn't get fixed because most people just don't care.

    I don't know what you base that on, but from what CW has said they're definitely looking into it.

    -Susan
    post edited by Susan G - 2008/10/13 02:34:45

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    Waldemar Brisk
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/13 04:11:03 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: gordonrussell76

    Sorry if this is alittle bit rambling, but I guess what I am saying is that it really should be questionnair based, ie a statistical analysis of hte Cake user base as to who would really like to see this functionality.

    If 70% want to see it, brilliant then do it. If 10% want it i would say no, if say 40% wanted it, then code it, but its available as a paid for upgrade bit like the MP3 option. This would also suit another subset of the userbase who while wanting to use notation software, already own there own preferred notation software, for example Sibelius :) and therefore don't want to pay for something they too won't be using.

    Hope that all made sense :)



    I'm afraid it didn't. First: companies who want to satisfy only the needs of their present customers won't be long-lived. So whatever the percentage is of Sonar users who desire better notation, the real question is: what is this persentage among the potential Sonar users? What are the prevalent expectations on a program such as Sonar? How do the features in Sonar match up to those in its competitors?

    Second: why should particularly notation be a "paid for" upgrade? Because you can't read music, as you said? Well, there are tons of features - particularly on the audio side - in Sonar that I can't use or don't need. Still I would not make so bold as to suggest that every feature I myself don't understand is unneeded and therefore should be subject to a extra charge.


    Hope that this made sense :)


    wb

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    UnderTow
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/13 06:13:30 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Waldemar Brisk

    I'm afraid it didn't. First: companies who want to satisfy only the needs of their present customers won't be long-lived. So whatever the percentage is of Sonar users who desire better notation, the real question is: what is this persentage among the potential Sonar users? What are the prevalent expectations on a program such as Sonar? How do the features in Sonar match up to those in its competitors?


    I wholeheartedly agree. It is very dangerous to keep polling the current customer base especially when the product isn't yet in the big league (despite what many people seem to believe). I still feel that Sonar is stuck in the prosumer and amateur paradigm partly because Cakewalk ask the current customer base what they want instead of looking at what the high-end competition offers.

    Even if the current user base has high-end users, I believe these users are not as likely to spend time on filling in questionnaires and feature requests. If they are not happy, they will just move on to another product. In a professional environment, the cost of purchase is only a very small portion of the overall cost of a product. As a simple example, in a pro environment with good turn-over, it is cheaper to buy a $100.000 fully specced out Pro Tools rig with an ICON controller than it is to spend $500 on Sonar. The productivity gains (and brand recognition) far outweigh the initial investment.

    Due to this, these type of users and customers evaluate software in very different ways than the average home-based musician or studio owner. That's all fine and understandable and I am not suggesting Cakewalk completely change their strategy. I am just suggesting they take the responses to polls and questionnaires with a large grain of salt.

    UnderTow



    #23
    rs
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/13 07:39:52 (permalink)
    I agree. I wasn't interested in scoring at all. but now that I want to publish a book of my original songs I'm starting to research my options
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    agincourtdb
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/13 11:20:05 (permalink)
    I'm a big believer in 'the right tool for the right job'. I own Finale, and consider myself a power user (even though I have less opportunity to use it the past couple years, it's like riding a bike...) So here's my $.02.

    Finale (which I use) is, at this point, 'rearranging the deck chairs' with it's updates, as there's very little left to add. I have heard Sibelius is a serious alternative, though I've never used it, if people are saying it's a real challenger to Finale then it must be pretty good. To add the kind of functionality these two programs represent to Sonar would be like tricking out your motorcycle to also work as a lawnmower; theoretically possible, but, wouldn't it be better just to have a nice motorcycle and a nice lawnmower? Especially if you already own the motorcycle?

    There are entry-level versions of both of these programs (just like there is with Sonar) so I strongly urge anyone who suspects they're in need of a serious notation solution to check them out. There are also demos. Spare yourself the annoyance of trying to turn a screw with a modified hammer.

    I think a perfect solution would be for Cake to make a deal to bundle an upgradeable version of an existing notation program (Allegro LE?) with Sonar.


    #25
    John
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/13 12:26:22 (permalink)
    Hmm

    I have no use for notation, now before I get flamed, I totally understand that for many its there bread and butter to be able to notate well. However it all comes down to cost and statistics.

    If the upgrade price of Sonar, or the overall cost of first purchase, then someone like myself may bault at it, becuase I would be paying for functionality i would not be using.

    I would guess that many users are like me they use Sonar as a demoing/recording studio. To flesh out ideas and/or take them to completion. For most of us that will be within the arena of capturing and editing performance, most often by ear rather than by notation. I cannot even read music, let alone score it. However I can put together a pretty decent string section by ear.

    Sorry if this is alittle bit rambling, but I guess what I am saying is that it really should be questionnair based, ie a statistical analysis of hte Cake user base as to who would really like to see this functionality.

    If 70% want to see it, brilliant then do it. If 10% want it i would say no, if say 40% wanted it, then code it, but its available as a paid for upgrade bit like the MP3 option. This would also suit another subset of the userbase who while wanting to use notation software, already own there own preferred notation software, for example Sibelius :) and therefore don't want to pay for something they too won't be using.

    Hope that all made sense :)

    That would be a valid argument if CW didn't have notation in Sonar already. All that has been going on in the development of Sonar is audio. We did get some new MIDI tools in S 7 but that was clearly a once in a while update. Both Cubase and Logic have great notation ability and have had it for years. They improve it with each version. CW has not touched the Score Editor going back to Pro Audio. This is in a way a bit of a scandal for a top DAW. Now if PT is going to offer good scoring CW should take notice. Clearly they saw a need to offer it.

    Best
    John
    #26
    agincourtdb
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/13 12:37:11 (permalink)
    The score editor in Sonar isn't meant for producing notation for print, it's for editing MIDI data in a way more palatable for pen-and-paper musicians. By that standard, it doesn't need updating. If the question is about making it fit for actual for-print notation, there's a *lot* of work to be done, at which point see my post above :-)


    #27
    Vovchik
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/13 12:52:48 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: agincourtdb

    The score editor in Sonar isn't meant for producing notation for print, it's for editing MIDI data in a way more palatable for pen-and-paper musicians. By that standard, it doesn't need updating. If the question is about making it fit for actual for-print notation, there's a *lot* of work to be done, at which point see my post above :-)


    I agree. I often use Staff View for multi track midi editing, for example it's very eazy to spot and delete unwanted material from the end of a section to make room for fill-in or transition.

    But it does need updating. At least SV must match other views when it comes to navigation, nudge function, zoom etc. Now working in SV differs from working in any other window.

    If It Ain't Broken, Don't Fix It
    #28
    Guitarmech111
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/13 12:57:39 (permalink)
    I don't use staff view. No need for it with what I do. SONAR doesn't need it that bad. It's not a notation software...

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    Conley Shepherd
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    #29
    John
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    RE: Protools 8 notation - when will Cakewalk listen? 2008/10/13 12:58:19 (permalink)
    The score editor in Sonar isn't meant for producing notation for print, it's for editing MIDI data in a way more palatable for pen-and-paper musicians. By that standard, it doesn't need updating. If the question is about making it fit for actual for-print notation, there's a *lot* of work to be done, at which point see my post above :-)

    Maybe maybe not. It will print. So it can be used to do what you say it isn't meant to do. I don't know what it is meant to do. Nor do I think CW knows either. To me its the forgotten child of Sonar. This has been a topic on this forum for as long as this forum has been around. It is time for CW to address this with a serious effort to provide Sonar users with the same level of functionality that Cubase and Logic users have had for years.

    Right now it is neither fish nor foul. It is inadequate for any normal use that anyone would expect it to do. Heck in the printed user manual it has a total of one small paragraph devoted to it.

    Here I am in total agreement with my fellow Sonar forum members that are asking for this to get the attention it deserves.

    Best
    John
    #30
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