Punch vs. Comp

The way the comping works in X3 I never do punch tracks anymore.  I just feel you have more control with getting the clip to sound natural on the track with the control over cross fades.
 
I think essentially workflow wise the process is near the same.  Doing punch tracks I'd set the punch points and start playing along so it would flow naturally.  Usually where I'm punching would be coming in an out of a fill or something like that, so I'd set the punch points to give a couple of measures buffer.
 
Honestly now it's just easier for me to setup a take lane and start the recording in the are where I would need to punch and then use comping afterward.
 
This has been such a time and lifesaver in X3.  To be honest the take lanes never worked properly in X2 for doing multi track drums, and there was no speed comping, so trying to hand edit that was a pain and often didn't work correctly.

I am too lazy to punch anymore with digital. With speed comping I prefer to record a couple bars before/after a "punch point," then I can decide on the splices (the punch points may not be ideal after the fact).

What about if you are not recording yourself but an artist who is on a bit of a time frame.  Punching may be better to do first in this situation especially if it is an obvious thing that needs to be corrected rather than just trying to get an alternate take. Alternate takes are better to put into layers and comp later.
 
I was recently involved in a 2 day session as a drummer and they were running Pro Tools.  We tended to punch in and fix things right then and there.  It seemed to work out much better at the time.  The good thing about it is the problem area is very fresh in your mind.  It means now that particular lane is correct all the way through. We did alternate takes of course for comping options later.
 
Maybe it is a Pro Tools thing punching in and out. Studio One makes it very easy as well.
 
I was a bit surprised they were doing it so much on this session. It is a bit like VU meters, maybe we need to bring them back too!
 
I think it depends on the caliber of the musician involved as well.  If you are dealing with a very skilled player then a punch in is quick and easy and they are going to nail it first time around.  I think it could work very well in that situation.  But recently I was recording a vocalist who was a bit unpredictable.  She would have not handled punching well at all.  The best and fastest way for her was to just keep doing layers. In fact in Studio One I was looping over sections and just recording takes to layers which is a very cool feature.  I got the vocal take I was after by comping later. (and using Melodyne a lot too!)
 
But on another session I was working with a fantastic singer who would sing 99% of a take perfectly and maybe make one little mistake. I punched that in at the time and she nailed that perfectly of course. It means that particular layer is perfect all the way through, no time wasted later fixing little areas of concern.  We did another take on a new layer and maybe punched in or two spots but that layer also ended up perfect.  Comping was now just down to artistic aspects rather than repairs.
 
Good point though Craig.  We should not necessarily abandon things we did in the past just because we have alternate ways of doing things now.

Vastman
Once I get a fairly good comp sands a couple niggles, especially with harmonies...I'll just loop the areas needing work and comp some more. Super quick.
 
Isn't that what you're saying? Way more easier than punch in/outs
 
I love that part... vamp on the entire song, for emotional consistency/melodic spontaneity  then mini comp areas still needing work...

Not quite what I'm saying. By doing a punch, if I get it right, it's done. If I comp, then I have to evaluate each take. Another issue is the "vamp on the entire song" aspect. With a punch, I can roll back and get into the groove prior to the punch. If I set that point as a comp, it's going to go back to the beginning each time and burn up time...but if I just comp a short segment, then I don't get a chance to "warm up" prior to that point.
 
To each his own, though! I like software that allows multiple workflows so you can choose the right tool for the right job. For example I'll often comp a short segment if I'm not trying to get a part "right," but trying out different approaches to hear which one I like best.

I don't really punch but record the "new version" of a problem part. As far as I've understood Cake's comping record mode, this means it automatically comps it in to the listening take. Yet I can still easy switch back and compare. Not that I do very often but I've just not really seen the need for punch when using this mode.

Sanderxpander
I don't really punch but record the "new version" of a problem part.

When I do "punch" this is what I usually do as well.   Sometimes the first pass doesn't seem right until the second or third are done, and then I realize I actually liked the first one best.   
 

I would also be very grateful if loop and punch were fixed in X3e; it suits the way I work very well.
 
One question about comping: When I'm listening back to what I've recorded and hear a clip or two that make me say, "Yuck!", I'd like to immediately be able to make a mark on that clip as it's playing (like a red X or something similar). That way, I'll be alerted later that, even though 9/10ths of the clip may sound better than in any other take, there's at least one little thing on that clip that I caught as very wrong and that needs to be addressed. I don't necessarily want to have to stop to correct it at the time, but to remind myself to do so later.
 
Would anyone know if such a thing is possible? Thanks!
LJ
 

Mod Bod
I would ask if your PT convert ever learned how to use the Dynamic Transport, Loop recording, playlists, Pre Roll and Post Roll as well as a number of options in PT that SONAR misses.  I'd also agree with Jeff about Studio One capabilities as well.
 
Punching in is a very important technique when you need to get something finished as quick as possible.

You would be asking a question that isn't relevant. I didn't say he switched because he didn't know how to comp with Pro Tools (in fact I didn't specify why he switched). He used punching a lot because, as you say, "punching in is a very important technique when you need to get something finished as quick as possible." He still punches all the time in Sonar. It's what works for him, and thanks to working with him, I've re-discovered the benefits of punching.
 
Nor did he switch from Pro Tools to Sonar. He switched to a different DAW first, due to his frustration with both the Mac and with Pro Tools. He stuck with Windows, but didn't like the first DAW he tried. I suggested he try Sonar and he didn't take me seriously. But when he started using it, it did exactly what he needed it to do, didn't crash (which the previous DAW he tried did regularly), and he found recording faster and more enjoyable. He switched for many reasons, both to Windows and eventually, to Sonar.

skinnybones lampshade
I would also be very grateful if loop and punch were fixed in X3e; it suits the way I work very well.
 
One question about comping: When I'm listening back to what I've recorded and hear a clip or two that make me say, "Yuck!", I'd like to immediately be able to make a mark on that clip as it's playing (like a red X or something similar). That way, I'll be alerted later that, even though 9/10ths of the clip may sound better than in any other take, there's at least one little thing on that clip that I caught as very wrong and that needs to be addressed. I don't necessarily want to have to stop to correct it at the time, but to remind myself to do so later.
 
Would anyone know if such a thing is possible? Thanks!
LJ

 
You can dynamically drop in a marker at that point so you can return to that point later. There is a hotkey to add a marker at the now time (don't remember what it is)

"This is fixed in X3E."
 
All groupies must bow down!
 
THANK YOU
 
T

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

DeeringAmps
Just don't set Sonar to "loop" and "punch" at the same time!
Still my biggest gripe to date.
Fix Loop & Punch for Cris Sake!
 

This is fixed in X3E. We spent a lot of time addressing testing and various permutations of loop recording and autopunch.
Properly the boundary cases with latency compensation under these scenarios especially when dealing with loopback is a lot harder than it may appear on the surface.

But Noel - it's just a few lines of code

jb101

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

skinnybones lampshade
I would also be very grateful if loop and punch were fixed in X3e; it suits the way I work very well.
 
One question about comping: When I'm listening back to what I've recorded and hear a clip or two that make me say, "Yuck!", I'd like to immediately be able to make a mark on that clip as it's playing (like a red X or something similar). That way, I'll be alerted later that, even though 9/10ths of the clip may sound better than in any other take, there's at least one little thing on that clip that I caught as very wrong and that needs to be addressed. I don't necessarily want to have to stop to correct it at the time, but to remind myself to do so later.
 
Would anyone know if such a thing is possible? Thanks!
LJ

 
You can dynamically drop in a marker at that point so you can return to that point later. There is a hotkey to add a marker at the now time (don't remember what it is)

Hit "m" to add a marker at the now time.

That doesn't help if you're checking 5 takes. I also like the suggestion of marking a clip positively or negatively during playback. Like I do with my photos in Lightroom.

Yes, Sanderxpander, you said it much better than I did, but what you said is what I really was looking for: to be able to mark clips positively or negatively or even as a "maybe" on the fly during comping involving many takes.
Thanks,
LJ

I use comping for vocals a lot but I still punch in most of all my stringed instruments.
been doing it this way for years, old habits are hard to break. but for me its more about flow.
get it right, get it done, finished.
 
creating too many comp tracks for me I seem to lose something in there, the groove, sure but more importantly, the flow, the main idea, the reason I wrote the song, comping can turn that in to an over produced version sometimes.
 
 
less we forget, sometimes mistakes make a song more realistic.
jimmy page will testify to that, as he is one of my favorite song writers, producers.

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Between the record code, looping, autopunch and delay compensation you have 4 of the most complicated areas of code in SONAR. The number of permutations of cases of things to test there is huge. Keith made a spreadsheet to enumerate just the normal use cases! The tricky part (and root of the original problem) was dealing with buffers that don't perfectly line up with the loop region. This is why this bug could appear to be intermittent. Depending on the latency, position of the loop end and the asio device latency, you may or may not have even seen the problem. It took several weeks of fixes and regression testing to get to the bottom of this one.

I guess this reveals me as a total geek, but that was really very interesting. It's not often us mortals get to peer behind the curtain and get a glimpse of what life is like in code-land.
 
It's great that you'll willing to come in here from time to time and help explain what makes SONAR tick. Just don't do it too much, or my head will explode. I had a hard enough time getting a pixel to bounce around on the screen of a Commodore-64.