Question about 0 db Recording?

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Jeff Evans
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/02 22:15:26 (permalink)
John I think all that info about Sonar is excellent. It just means that even if you are working at a K system level and someone does something idiotic, it just means that Sonar is going to handle it with ease and not distort. And when it comes time to mix, then it will be easy to tame and sort out and then the external converters will never know about it!

This is one aspect of Sonar I feel very excited about and switching over to an all 64 bit system too really brings this into its own. And even with the 32 bit version of Sonar its ability to go into 64 bit precision mode right at the mix buss stage is also a great feature.

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John
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/02 22:29:27 (permalink)
Yes. You put it best because it is perhaps one of Sonar's best features that doesn't get the respect it deserves. One caution though this ability is with a clean track no FX. Some plugins are not as lenient and thus will distort. Most if not all of CW's plugins are able to handle this but third party ones may not. Ozone has been happy with this for quite some time now as one of the good guys. All plugins are not created equal.  

Best
John
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drewfx1
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/02 23:01:20 (permalink)
John, 

It's not unique to Sonar. I know that recent versions of Sony's ACID Pro can also go well above 0dB internally as well (as long as you reduce the output level to the HW). I would expect most other floating point implementations should work the same way, as you'd have to deliberately write the code to limit floating point to a certain 0dB value to make it clip (at least in real world conditions). 

Except for some plugins (as you discussed), it really doesn't matter what levels Sonar uses internally. You can just adjust levels at the bus or master to stop from clipping when you leave Sonar.

drewfx
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/02 23:04:18 (permalink)
John that is also a good point and it comes back to gain structure theory with plugins. I think if you observe a few simple rules of making sure that your levels going into and coming out of any plugin are well clear of 0db FS and not lighting up any clip indicators anywhere then you are going to be in good territory.

But your point does highlight something about all plugins not being created equal. I have many others too and it pays to be watchful of how thay are handling average and peak levels cleanly. As a teacher this is one area where a lot of students get worong. Their plugins are lighting up like the old Christmas tree and I say to them look at that! What is the story there? It is especially important with EQ's when you start boosting anywhere. You are adding db's to the signal as soon as you start boosting so you may have to pad or pull the input levels down a bit, do the boosting and use the output makeup gains to get levels back to where they were before etc.. And if there are no output makeup gains on a plugin then add Channel Tools just to pick an extra 6 db of gain here and there.

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John
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/02 23:05:54 (permalink)
Cool Drew.  So others are catching on thats good to know. And you are right about your other points.

Best
John
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Crg
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/03 06:20:38 (permalink)
I can't beleive there's even a controversy about this subject. A lot of good ideas have been presented for test scenarios but how many people will actually hear the difference.
I'm no top pro or expert but come on, the rule to never go into the red is an old one. For recording or playback. Anyone who thinks touching the red zone is cool is just way to caught up in the loudness war. But hey, as Ginger Baker once said, "Do what you like".

Craig DuBuc
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papa2005
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/03 09:30:59 (permalink)
Crg


I can't beleive there's even a controversy about this subject. A lot of good ideas have been presented for test scenarios but how many people will actually hear the difference.
I'm no top pro or expert but come on, the rule to never go into the red is an old one. For recording or playback. Anyone who thinks touching the red zone is cool is just way to caught up in the loudness war. But hey, as Ginger Baker once said, "Do what you like".

Craig,
 
The rule about "the red zone" began during the days of VU meters when the "red zone" indicated (or attempted to) that you were over 0dB...In SONAR the "red zone" begins at -6dB...There's a lot of difference between the two...

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johnnyV
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/03 11:39:42 (permalink)
Thanks for this info, I have never really converted my mind set over to what is happening in digital. I have been ignoring the meters believing them to be just a gizmo and not anything I should trust. They seem slow but that's probably my on board video card.
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drewfx1
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/03 11:43:17 (permalink)
Options-Audio Meter Settings lets you adjust meter ballistics if you want them faster.

drewfx
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metamo
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/03 12:30:54 (permalink)

Thanks to all who are contributing to this thread. It will take me some time to digest it, but here's what I'm taking away from it all.

1) Look into K-system metering, could erase all of the guesswork.
2) Barring that, start with the "guideline" that you can compress up to just under 0dB during final mixdown only.
3) Whatever you do, if it clips something needs to change. If not, you're in the ballpark.

Sound right?

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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/03 16:31:05 (permalink)
papa2005


Crg


I can't beleive there's even a controversy about this subject. A lot of good ideas have been presented for test scenarios but how many people will actually hear the difference.
I'm no top pro or expert but come on, the rule to never go into the red is an old one. For recording or playback. Anyone who thinks touching the red zone is cool is just way to caught up in the loudness war. But hey, as Ginger Baker once said, "Do what you like".

Craig,
 
The rule about "the red zone" began during the days of VU meters when the "red zone" indicated (or attempted to) that you were over 0dB...In SONAR the "red zone" begins at -6dB...There's a lot of difference between the two...

Soft clip---- hard clip.
Clipping is like farting. A lot of people think that if you can't hear it, you can't smell it. 

Craig DuBuc
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CJaysMusic
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/03 16:46:17 (permalink)
The silent ones are the worst ones
Cj

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Crg
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/03 17:08:53 (permalink)
I'd like to get some  official  feedback about whether Sonar clips when the red zone is entered. You might even want to clip it slightly on percussive notes that end quickly. But to me playing that close to the line is just not neccesary. Until you get to an outboard player with clip indicators, it's best not to go into the red.
SBD clipping CJ.

Craig DuBuc
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mixmkr
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/03 17:17:51 (permalink)
I'm not sure worrying about meters, going in the red, LOOKS too low.....   is all that necessary nowadays.  If it starts to sound like it's clipping. pull back, otherwise I don't think anyone is going to know if you recorded at -.1 or -6. 
Peoples HVAC typically add more noise in their recordings than anything downstream of a mic.

This "worrying" is a throwback to reel to reel days and Sonar could just as easily come without meters, but a couple of indicator lights instead. 

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papa2005
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/03 17:41:35 (permalink)
Crg


I'd like to get some  official  feedback about whether Sonar clips when the red zone is entered. You might even want to clip it slightly on percussive notes that end quickly. But to me playing that close to the line is just not neccesary. Until you get to an outboard player with clip indicators, it's best not to go into the red.
SBD clipping CJ.

If entering the (-6dB) red zone were to introduce any sort of clipping, how is it that ME's looking for a "hot" sound master at -0.1dB without clipping?
 
If that's not official enough I don't know what is...

Regards,
Papa

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CLICK HERE to view a list of video tutorials...
 
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syrath
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/04 05:09:23 (permalink)
Working with floating point, internally sounds that are clipping should make no difference as long as the output to the audio interface isnt.

Similarly clipping during recording is something that should definitely be avoided. However I would still recommend that its probably best to mix low to begin with so that you arent pushing the red on the master channel while mixing. People that do so tend to find that the mixes they make are much cleaner. There are a number of reasons for this, including amongst others intersample clipping.
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Crg
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/04 06:50:05 (permalink)
papa2005


Crg


I'd like to get some  official  feedback about whether Sonar clips when the red zone is entered. You might even want to clip it slightly on percussive notes that end quickly. But to me playing that close to the line is just not neccesary. Until you get to an outboard player with clip indicators, it's best not to go into the red.
SBD clipping CJ.

If entering the (-6dB) red zone were to introduce any sort of clipping, how is it that ME's looking for a "hot" sound master at -0.1dB without clipping?
 
If that's not official enough I don't know what is...


So would you say that soft clipping is a part of the "hot" sound?

Craig DuBuc
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Question about 0 db Recording? 2010/03/04 08:51:00 (permalink)
The red zone to me is just where the indicators change colour and they do it early at -6db. (unless we are talking zone above 0 db but I am am referring to area below) Entering the red zone will not cause any clipping. The red is just designed to make you react and it is effective. Clipping happens (normally) when you get right up to 0db and over so no. (John points out too that Sonar handles the overlevel very well so you are not even clipping at 0db but keep away from it none the less. Some transients can get very high above the norm. (drummers!)

I like the way they change colour so early as it tends to keep you quite clear of 0db FS. And in posts above I have mentioned you can keep clear of the red zone as well but if you aim to just hit it ocassionally then you are making some might fine and clean recordings.

With K level recordings even at -20 db, a 14 db transient is going to bring the red on. You can work at all three K reference levels and live with the red too. It could be confusing as with a VU meter for example, the red is above 0db VU and therefore is shouting out danger! But as we analog people know, that red part was never really a problem anyway. With tape recorders for example one can get seriously into the red so much so it never moved and it sounded great.

On another thread somewhere people are talking about going ape using tape simulators but I say treat em wisely and dont do too much of it, if at all. Leave em home and love the transient sound of digital without any front edges of any sound being tampered with. But what about that smashing distortion that overdriving digital can do, it is a sound in its own right too.

I also believe that the reason many people dont like working at K -20 db levels for example or low digital levels is because of what you may start hearing as you turn up your monitor gain. With these lower digital levels you can start hearing the noise in any analogue equipment near by as well. This is the reason why a digital mixer is so good. Even at full volume there is total silence until the music starts and it frightens me on a regular basis.  The V Studio does that too.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2010/03/04 08:55:34

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