Question about 0 db Recording?

HI Guys

I have a question about recording 1 MIC with 1 Track

I am running an audio Interface and everyone said that you should record the voice at 0 DB.

I am using sonar 8.5. So the question is when i export that file it does not seem to be loud. Should I push the master gain from the sonar around +6 and something like that ?

Does decrease the voice quality if I do so ?

Thanks

uh ... no ... never go above 0 dB - in fact - record at 24 bit and shoot for peaks of no more than around -3dB - even less.

For volume - turn up your speakers.

I am running an audio Interface and everyone said that you should record the voice at 0 DB.

 
That doesn't make any sense. 0dB is where digital clipping starts on SONAR's record meters. At best you can record with peaks "up to" 0dB, but normally, there is no reason to record that hot in a 24-bit system. You can push the playback gain on the track or on the Master bus after recording to get the peaks closer to 0dB on the export, but chances are the "loudness" you are seeking lies in adding compression to raise the RMS power of the signal without increasing peak levels that are already maxed out.
 
 

nprime


Does not seem loud where? Compared to what?

I can keep near 0 db for sure. But when i export to wav then burn to cdrom , it is not loud. i have to crank the cdrom of my car.

I'm pretty new to this but it sounds like you're missing quite a few steps between finishing your track and exporting a wav file.

And when you listen to your car's CD player you're comparing your raw, unprocessed wave file to songs that have been treated by people who have years of experience (and thousands of dollars worth of gear though you don't need all that) getting songs to sound 'loud' without distortion and clipping.

The advice to use compression is very good and there's a lot of videos around explaining what it does and why. Google the term.

In the meantime try this. Add an instance of Boost 11 to your track and crank that sucker up. (please, this is just a suggestion to see the effects), then export your wav and see what happens to your loudness. Boost 11 can be rather crude but it will give you an idea of what compression can do to your track. Then learn about EQ and compression and you'll be on your way to understanding.

arkora1,

Welcome to the digital realm (hopefully you're recording at 24-bits)...There is no need to approach 0dB while tracking...You must learn to understand the difference between "peak" levels & RMS levels when it's time to mix/master your tracks. You should DEFINITELY not crank your Master bus to +6dB!

There's an art (and a science) in learning to mix & master properly. There are plenty of resources available on the internet as well as several worthwhile books that you should look into. It don't come easy getting the "loudness" you desire while still retaining any similance of dynamics. Take the time to learn, don't be in a hurry, and for the time being don't be overly concerned with how "loud" your mixes are while you're learning. With a little patience and a lot of studying/experimenting you'll find the proper way to create acceptably "loud" mixes/masters...

First things first, the decibel system is a comparitive way of measuring volume. Someone saying you should record to 0 dB isnt giving the whole picture is it 0 dB VU or is it 0 dB FS. Both of these measurements are 0 dB, however the FS is around 20 dB louder than the VU measurement.

On an analogue mixing desk and with analogue equipment they would use a VU meter to gauge levels. This was the "sweet" spot that they would aim for when recording. There was however over 20 dB headroom built in that helped the sound from distorting because it was driven too hard.

Cue digital mixing, now they use a different system thats based on the full scale measurement. 0 dB full scale is the highest measurement you can get on the FS system (the CW meters are +6 dB when you reach 0 dB FS).

Now bring in another factor , known as the noise floor. This is the background noise of the recording. In 16 bit systems this noise floor is much more audible than that when working with 24 bit systems. (take my word for it or google it). When recording digitally using 16 bit its advisable to get the sound as loud as possible without distortion, this means that the sound is clearly heard over the noise floor, even in quieter sections. If you dont record with strong enough levels then the quality of the sound is affected. This is another reason to shoot for as close to 0 dB as you can. This time its 0 dB FS and not VU.

Fast forward to today. We still have meters loosely based on the FS system, however a great number of people still believe in the old analogue "rule" of recording at 0 dB. Only problem is that now 0 dB is actually over 20 dB louder. So in reality you dont need to shoot for 0 dB.

Secondly with 24 bit recording the noise floor is much less of an issue so you can quite safely shoot for even -8 dB on the meter,  giving you a much cleaner and less distorted recording and performance. Note that even if you dont reach 0 dB you can still get distortion known as intersample clipping. This is caused by errors in the conversion process, where certain waveforms at certain frequencies can actually result in a waveform being inaccurately converted and at a higher level.

To cut the longer story to just long, record in 24 bit and dont start up the recording loud. Loudness is something that is introduced during the mixing and , in particular, the mastering process.

Judging by the picture he is doing it right. His fader is at 0 dB. The audio is at -8 dB. This is the right way to record. What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Before you waste your time burning the CD proof the track side by side with a similar style of song in media player or win amp. I think your missing some step when you export it. Those pictures show a pretty standard input level.

metamo


I'd like to throw in my hat with arkora1 by asking essentially the same question in a slightly different way.

Why, even when levels are Boost11-ed and compressed all the way up to -6dB (the beginning of the red on the meter), does the exported file sound MUCH softer than your average commercially produced MP3?

Because you're peaking at -6dB and most "commercially produced" LOUD CD's (I hate referencing MP3's) are peaking at about -0.01dB with an RMS probably around -8dB at the most...Or either they've squashed the crap out of all the dynamics and everything hovers around 0db...
 
If you'd like to see exactly what a really LOUD CD (or MP3) track looks like, simply import the file into SONAR at look at the waveform...There will be no peaks & valleys...Just a rectangular image all the way across the board...That's what the "Loudness War" has created...

Amen, Brother John! *LOL*

The "red zone" is simply a "warning" that you're getting near the 0dB mark which will cause digital clipping...Nobody has ever said it's unsafe to be in the "red zone"...Trust me, if your tracks start clipping you'll hear it (and it ain't a pretty sound)...

metamo


So if I have this right, when tracking you can't go into the red, but when mixing down you CAN (as long as you don't reach 0 db)?
EUREKA!!

No. Never go into the red. Hard clipping occurs at 0db, yes you will hear it immediately. Clipping also occurs in stages within the red zone. Never go into the red.

This is just such a classic example of some of the advice being wrong here and there is just NO standard in terms of level setting.  Dont forget this thread about K System metering.


http://forum.cakewalk.com...;m=1935407&mpage=1

Now there are two things going on there, one is monitor calibration in the room which is important but the other is about reference levels. That is relevant to this topic.

K System metering applies to mastered material but also to mix material prior to mastering but equally to setting levels on individual tracks. If you have some sort of calibrated VU meter or BlueCat plugin for example on your stereo buss then it is easy to set track levels. All you have to do is decide what K ref level you are going to work at first eg -14 db. Then you set you rms metering accordingly. Now when incoming signal levels are being set, it is just a simple matter to adjust for either the real VU or the BlueCat VU to hover around 0db while the signal is present. Of course we are really at rms -14. The Sonar track meters are OK except they need to be in rms and peak mode and they need to show a rms value of around -17 db. (Because we know that Sonar meters are 3 db lower than K system levels)

You will never go wrong. You will never go anywhere near any peaks or red zones or anything on the tracks. When you set all of your tracks this way and do a mix the same applies. Your mix will hover around rms 0db (which is still around -14) The peaks of the mix wont go near 0db FS or any redzones etc.. Then through mastering you can raise the average rms level of the mix up to some value that you deem suitable without crushing the music. eg -9 or even -6 db. It is possible to master without peaking or going anywhere near red zones as well. K System creates a level reference. Without it you are sort of waffling in the wind really.

Now to dispel a few myths. You can do of this in 16 bit and 24 bit mode of course which is better. syrath claims in 16 bit mode we have to be shooting for as close a signal to 0db. But in reality if you record at say K = -14 for example the digital noise floor of a 16 bit system which is about 90 db in reality is now 76 db below -14 db! So you are not going to hear it period. You would be lucky to hear noise that is 30 to 40 db down. So even in 16 bit mode you do NOT have to be shooting for levels close to 0db FS. This is dangerous as well, as a musician only has to do something slightly harder in their playing and it will smash through. But even being at K -14 this is not likely to happen and with K -20 it will never happen.

With analog we had a reference of 0db and it referred to voltages in and out of analog equipment. We also had this built in headroom which was just always there. It varied form analog thing to analog thing but it was still there and we did not worry about it because it just absorbed any peaks. But in digital we have a glass ceiling now which we have to worry about whcih means we now have to think about our rms levels being somewhere below that. But where? This is where K System metering comes into play. It gives us three choices to work out now. -20, -14 or -12. This is good as we now have a reference of some kind. It is interesting to note that when you work in a K System mentality, there are no peaks or red zones or anything, just pure clean music! And from any of the three K system references it is also easy to master and achieve a high rms valus if needed and still have some peaks left and still doing it without all of your clip indicators lighting up like a Christmas tree.

This is where monitor levels in your room are important too so no matter what K ref level you are going to work at, the SPL level in the room is always the same.

Its good to know John that Sonar can handle things up around 0db without problem but it is the converters that are connected to your computer that may not peform so well right on 0db FS for example.

But can you see where I am coming from. If you choose a ref level and work with it then neither Sonar or your converters will ever have to deal with things right up to 0db FS ever again! And it is good if say Herb wanted me to mix a track for him. If he tracked everything at K -14 and then sent it to me, when I opened it everything would be simply playing at the correct level. All I need to do is set my metering to K14 and away I go. And the mix that I send back to him would also be at K14 too.

I see here many people working at many different levels and if I got a track from someone who was trying to track everything close to 0db because they thought the noise was just so bad in 16 bit then I would have a heck of a time controlling track levels etc...

Your buss and master levels should always be at unity gain also. Sometimes it is Ok to move a buss level up or down a little during the course of a mix for sure but master levels should never go above or below unity. If you have to then you are doing something wrong.

People need to let go of this silly notion that 16 bit is noisy and we have to record loud to avoid it. This is the one great thing about digital that I really like. The noise flor is just so waaaaay down compared to any analog medium. Analog sucks when it comes to noise floors! You have to use all this noise reduction in tape systems and then the vinyl groove has a noise floor which is not very far down either and it is quite audible. But with digital, it is not. Even in 16 bit mode it is impossible to hear.

Remember that experiment that was done in the audio myths workshop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ by Ethan Winer. He pumped in noise at various levels something like -30, -40 -50 db etc and no one could hear it!