RESOLVED: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3, Kontakt 5 related

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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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2013/10/20 11:12:55 (permalink)

RESOLVED: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3, Kontakt 5 related

I'm getting very strange behaviour / crashes with X3b in the final stages of a project, which are potentially related to Kontakt 5 (yet I'm not 100% certain).
 
History:
  • project created, tracked and roughly mixed in X2a
  • about 50 tracks, including 2 instances of K5 (ARD + various synths), project size in RAM: 3.6 GB
  • when migrated to X3b there were a number of problems/crashes due to 32/64bit plugs and VST2/VST3 plugs, which were sorted out; VST2 were manually replaced by VST3 were available, all 32 bit plugs were eliminated
  • no further problems when editing and completing mix i.e. 10+ hours of continuous work without problems
 
When fine tuning of the mix in presence of the artist, the project was perfectly OK to work with for 2 hours. However, after coming back from a break, the project no longer opens but crashes as soon as loading is completed (according to RAM use). Countless embarassing attempts, but everytime it either crashes or if opened successfully suffers from the silent master bus problem (meters indicating playback but no audio arriving at audio interface). Rebooting system doesn't help ...
 
What makes it really weird: This morning we could open the project and finalize the mix, but we had just one go at it. After saving, bouncing and closing the project it's now back to same crashing situation everytime you open the project ...
 
Further info:
  • it opens fine in SAFE mode when leaving K5 out (but unfortunately we need K5!)
  • it somehow seems like there is some weird (potentially troublesome) caching going on in the background (as it takes long to load K5 samples 1st time, but is much quicker afterwards (even after a crash) ... yet loading is not successful
  • every crash leaves about 7 GB somewhere in the crash reporting system directory that fills up the HD, which you have to track and removed with a disk cleaning utility
  • 2 other projects created at same time with very similar set-up don't show any of these problems (same plugs, same K5, also started in X2a)
 
I have a total of 26 mini-dumps, which I will donate to Cakewalk's fault reporter ... yet I'm afraid they'll just get back to me saying the reason is inside K5 ...
 
So, anybody seen anything similar? Could it be an HD problem? Or caching settings? ...
 
Your help is much appreaciated!
 
post edited by FreeFlyBertl - 2015/02/03 09:30:05

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#1

25 Replies Related Threads

    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/20 11:24:40 (permalink)
    CWBRN-20765

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    #2
    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/20 14:07:53 (permalink)
    I'm researching NI / Kontakt forum posts (as this is my best guess for the source of the problem) ...
     
    There seems to be consensus on disabling multi-processor support in Kontakt 5 and just enabling it in the host DAW. (Then you go into Kontakt (load it up in your  DAW ) – and then go to Options / Engine, and change Multiprocessor support to ‘Off’.)
     
    Is this the way to go for Sonar? Could multi-processor support in Kontakt 5 be causing problems even before playback starts?

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    #3
    lawp
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/20 14:16:46 (permalink)
    dunno but a couple of things to try : k5 dfd /disk streaming settings ; and is the k5 instruments /multi saved as such from within sonar? good luck
    #4
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/20 20:55:02 (permalink)
    I run Kontakt 5 all the time - it is my go to soft synth almost all the time, and I have never had to disable anything to work with it just fine.  I have had 5-6 instances of Kontakt up and running with multiple loaded instruments per instance, and close to 100 tracks, along with other synths, and have not had such problems.
     
    What happens if you delete the Kontakt instances (without deleting the associated tracks), and insert them again?
     
    The other thing that comes to mind is some possible project corruption, which perhaps if you cut/pasted tracks and audio clips and all of that to a new project, would the problems still be there?
     
    Bob Bone
     

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    #5
    cliffr
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/20 21:01:57 (permalink)
    Hard to say from the info you give, however there are glaring similarities to this thread.
     
    You have an octacapture (below thread related to octacapture driver / K5)
    - slow load times first time.
    - memory size consumed same when it won't load.
     
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/X2KontaktOctacapturejump-off-of-cliff-Work-around-confirmed-m2875841.aspx
     
    Perhaps you should attempt either one of;
     
     - Open a different project first, close it (not exit Sonar), then try opening your 'Problem Project' (see post #55)
    - Try switching drivers to WDM/KS mode (see post #57)
     
    Good luck.
     
     
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    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/21 07:48:01 (permalink)
    Thanks for your replies.
     
    There's a lot of information in that thread and the situation is strikingly similar (well, the symptoms at least) ... so I just tested all these options but without luck:
    • Open a different project first, close it (not exit Sonar), then try opening your 'Problem Project' (see post #55) => leads to same crash when "problem" project is loaded
    • Octa-Capture is apparently not the problem, either. I run Octa-Capture in EXP mode with a VS-700, so I can leave the OC off and just run with the VS-700 (at least for mixing), but when I do this, I get the same crashing results (the only difference being that it first detects the "silent" headphone busses which are routed to the OC and when you confirm that msg box => BOOM)
    • Turning off multi-processor support in K5 does not help in the crashing project, either, but seems to have adverse effects in the projects that work (so I'll keep that active until someone tells me better) ...
     
    So unfortunately still same situation - I'm curious what/when Cakewalk replies after having a look at the 26 minim dumps ...
     
    Rob

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    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/27 03:33:31 (permalink)
    Installed all updates (Komplete, WAVES, Octa-Capture) to be on the latest versions ... yet the problem remains. Since the updates didn't fix it and support doesn't respond to my email, it's up to me to track it down somehow :-(
     
    I have turned the troublesome project into a project template (as I would need that set-up for another production) ...
    • it does load all the time (which the original troublemaker does not),
    • but even with only a few seconds of audio in the project, I can get a reproducible crash as soon as I try to apply Region FX/Melodyne
    • the crash lists a problem in RDAS1089.dll (which according to file search is part of the VS-700 drivers) i.e. audio interface crash
    • BUT (!!) as soon as I delete the K5 instances this crash disappears ...
    • testing further reveals that I can actually leave both K5 instances in place and the crash disappears if I just empty the K5 rack of one instance where I have Alicia's Keys, some other simple synths + one synth bass
    • as soon as reload that K5 rack by loading the K5 multi, the crash is back (@ starting Melodyne on a track that doesn't relate to K5 in any respect)
     
    Weird issue ... X3b crashing due to audio driver failure, now confirmed to be triggered by something in K5 ...
     
    Anybody seen anything similar? Any suggestions?
     
     

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    #8
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/27 08:50:01 (permalink)
    This is one of the weird ones.
     
    I'll try to do some digging - I know this would not be easy for you, being as you are in skiing country, but at this point it might well be worth getting up either really early or really late, and calling back to technical support.
     
    From what I have seen thus far, particularly now with the new release, that the Cakewalk support staff have been QUITE eager to jump in and try to solve some of these weirder problems.  I would think that with them having your dumps that they could delve deeper into what's going on with this for you.
     
    What happens if you load the project without any effects plugins, or if you temporarily bypass all effects by hitting 'E' on your computer keyboard?  I am just wondering if perhaps some bizarre plugin problem is contributing to your trauma.
     
     
    Bob Bone
     

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    wizard71
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/27 15:04:56 (permalink)
    Mine was the thread mentioned above and I think it is down to roland to iron these driver problems out. There is just something about these drivers and Kontakt within sonar that can have issues. Was hoping the new drivers and/or the new version of kontakt would sort it but I still have the same issue with my particular dll. Seems to be out of Sonars hands.

    Have bookmarked this thread. Hope it's solved soon.

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    Anderton
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/27 22:58:30 (permalink)
    If it's driver-related, does the problem go away if you use WDM instead of ASIO or vice-versa?
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    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/28 16:08:17 (permalink)
    Anderton
    If it's driver-related, does the problem go away if you use WDM instead of ASIO or vice-versa?



    I can't really go the WDM route as I use a VS-700 plus an Octa-Capture in VS EXP mode.
     
    Anyway, the weirdness continuous: I did reinstall VS-700 drivers (just to be sure) and now that project I started off the template works (i.e. my reproducible crash when opening melodyne is gone), but the original crash still persists.
     
    I did browse NI forum and others - It appears that Kontakt is not the most stable piece of software when used inside a DAW. It seems to be crashing PT a whole lot ... well, I doubt I'll ever find the real reason for the crash, but I'll let you know if I do...
     

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    #12
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/28 23:53:10 (permalink)
    I use Kontakt EVERY day, ALL day, and it never crashes on me - and this has been the case for forever.
     
    There MUST be something else going on ( I hope), 
     
    Bob Bone
     

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    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/29 14:53:37 (permalink)
    robert_e_bone
    I use Kontakt EVERY day, ALL day, and it never crashes on me - and this has been the case for forever.
     



    It was like that with X2a (no problems in 9 months) ... but now it's X3b, K5 updated to latest version, plus more WAVES plugs in use ...
     
    @Bob: Which version of Kontakt are you using (build no?)? What are you using as your settings for multi-processor support for K5 (not Sonar): all cores, a few cores or no multi-processing? It's not the source of the crash, but I've read different advice in different places, so I don't know what to believe ...

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    #14
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/30 02:05:48 (permalink)
    I use 5.2.0.6361, and have done NOTHING to change any default of Kontakt.  It just works, and causes no trouble at all.
     
    Bob Bone
     

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    mudgel
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/30 02:25:39 (permalink)
    I've been using Kontakt since it was released, now on v5 and I'm not having any problems on either win 8.1 or win. 7 x64 with Sonar from 8.5 every version through X3b. It's one of the most stable pieces of software I use. Stand alone, Studio One, Reaper 4, PT9HD,

    Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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    Shambler
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/10/30 03:11:39 (permalink)
    Also using kontakt5 here on win8 with a quadcapture never had a hint of a problem.

    I would start by doing a disk integrity check.

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    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2013/11/01 16:07:09 (permalink)
    The mystery saga continues. This is sort of my personal warfare against a non-behaving project ...
     
    Disk integrity checking did not find anything. Neither did other system checks and tweaks (on/off). Same applies to special Sonar settings in AUD.ini etc.
     
    So then came X3c - but still the same crash when opening the project. It looks like I can only open it (at a 50% chance of success) right after a reboot. 0% success if I used Sonar with a different project before.
     
    Project corruption may be the most likely reason for this ... so once I got it to open, I started freezing synths to see if that helps ...
     
    Well, it does. After freezing one Kontakt instance, the project opens without crash. However, the next weirdness appeared: I cannot freeze the other Kontakt instance (which contains several synths in the rack, but only 2 are fed by unmuted MIDI tracks). I can see in the background that the wave file is written to the audio directory, but when the first of two tracks is bounced, freezing just stops and reverts to the unfrozen state (with the wave file being deleted again). Anybody seen that before ...??? Something odd between Sonar and Alicia's Keys or Heaviocity going on ...
     
     
     
     

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    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2015/02/03 09:21:19 (permalink)
    UPDATE:
     
    Since that last post above I had that problem (which was really the only one with Sonar X3) a few times and somehow I noticed that (a) it only happens when Kontakt 5 is being used in the project and (b) Kontakt 5 tracks are not frozen ... so I developed the habit of freezing whenever possible ..
     
    About a year later I could successfully track that problem down to only happening with the Roland Octa-Capture interface (no crashes with the VS-700) ... so this was clearly a NI / Roland issue and I reported it to both  ... not expecting anything from Roland (from past experience) ... but I got the reply from NI saying this is a known issue (but no mention whether this will be fixed or not) ...
     
    So I kept the Octa-Capture off when doing Kontakt work ... and voila no more crashes ...
     
    Anyway, today I was surprised to find a Kontakt 5.4.3 update which actually lists "a fixed crash with the "Roland Quad Capture Driver" audio interface ... so maybe this resolves the last issue I had on my studio system :-)
     
    <<yet I won't be able to test until next week ... need to finish a client project first>>
     
     

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    #19
    Fabio Rubato
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2015/02/08 04:57:13 (permalink)
    I've had similar issues with Kontact 5, especially using Alicia's Keys and Session Horns - I have the Quad-Core. Freezing is a work-around which helps but obviously not useful if I'm developing a piece. I've been on to NI and they state a known issue - this is a known Bug (KT5-2224) and apparently - 'The Prio is set to HIGH now. So i think a fix will be released soon.'
     
     

    Sonar: Platinum, (X3e) - x64 
    PC: Win10 Pro 64;
    Computer: Gigabyte Z68X-UD3R-B3; Intel i7, 2600k @ 4.2 (8 Cores); 16 GB Corsair Ram;
    Visual Card: Gigabyte GTX 580;
    Audio Interface: RME UFX;
    Monitors: Adam A77X, Sub8;
    Midi Controllers: Komplete Kontrol S88,  Novation Bass Station 2; NI Maschine Mk 2; 
    Other Hardware: Joe Meek Twin Q Dual Studio Channel;
    Mics: RODE NT2-A, ASTON Spirit 
     
    Latest Song: Lay Down Before the War

    #20
    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2015/02/08 05:14:20 (permalink)
    I have installed all the latest updates (including the mentioned Kontakt 5.4.3) and the first tests seem promising - could not get it to crash with several instances of K5, doing all the things that were dangerous before ... fingers crossed that it's fixed - long term performance will tell ...

    GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER
      +++   Visit the Rehab   +++
     
    DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600
    Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture)   Control-Surface: VS-700C 
    VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really) 
    #21
    Fabio Rubato
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2015/02/08 08:23:41 (permalink)
    Yes, I have 5.4.3.307 and in fact that update was when I started having issues...go figure! Still 'fix' pending...didn't need fixing in the first instance!

    Sonar: Platinum, (X3e) - x64 
    PC: Win10 Pro 64;
    Computer: Gigabyte Z68X-UD3R-B3; Intel i7, 2600k @ 4.2 (8 Cores); 16 GB Corsair Ram;
    Visual Card: Gigabyte GTX 580;
    Audio Interface: RME UFX;
    Monitors: Adam A77X, Sub8;
    Midi Controllers: Komplete Kontrol S88,  Novation Bass Station 2; NI Maschine Mk 2; 
    Other Hardware: Joe Meek Twin Q Dual Studio Channel;
    Mics: RODE NT2-A, ASTON Spirit 
     
    Latest Song: Lay Down Before the War

    #22
    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2015/02/08 12:34:56 (permalink)
    Hi Fabio,
     
    I downloaded (possibly) all updates to K5 in the past 2 years and kept the installers to be able to roll back in case the situation gets worse - so in case you can't rollback, PM me and I go dig out these installers from my backups and make them available to you ...
     
    Anyway, none of them made any difference in terms of that particular stability issue, and I need to give the latest one a few more hours of testing to see whether NI really addressed my problem ... but I'm on an Octa-Capture, so it's a (somewhat) different animal ...
     
    Rob

    GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER
      +++   Visit the Rehab   +++
     
    DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600
    Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture)   Control-Surface: VS-700C 
    VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really) 
    #23
    robert_e_bone
    Moderator
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2015/02/08 13:59:04 (permalink)
    The suspense is KILLING me.  I am hoping the NI update fixed your issue - if it is indeed interface-specific then that would make sense as to why a bunch of others were not experiencing the same sorts of problems.
     
    I HOPE this took care of that set of problems for you, and I will keep an eye out for any updates from you on where things stand now.
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #24
    wizard71
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2015/02/08 16:42:29 (permalink)
    FreeFlyBertl
    Hi Fabio,
     
    I downloaded (possibly) all updates to K5 in the past 2 years and kept the installers to be able to roll back in case the situation gets worse - so in case you can't rollback, PM me and I go dig out these installers from my backups and make them available to you ...
     
    Anyway, none of them made any difference in terms of that particular stability issue, and I need to give the latest one a few more hours of testing to see whether NI really addressed my problem ... but I'm on an Octa-Capture, so it's a (somewhat) different animal ...
     
    Rob


    This (quad capture) update never worked for me. However, NI say it's a known issue with the octa capture and are addressing it in an update. (KT5-2120)

    http://www.youtube.com/SpaceTimeAces
    https://soundcloud.com/space-time-aces
    Sonar Platinum - Win 8.1 x64 - Haswell 4770k - ASrock Z87 pro3 - 32gb ram - Fractal design R4 case - 3x HDD 1 USB 2.0 external 1x cr M4 ssd for samples - Octa-capture - Sontronics Aria - Sontronics STC-1s - BX8 monitors - ARC 2 system - Kawai CA63 piano - Kawai MP6 Stage piano - Fender custom Telecaster FMT - Yamaha LL6 - Fender P bass


    #25
    Fabio Rubato
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    Re: Strange behaviour and crashes with X3b, potentially Kontakt 5 related 2015/02/08 21:39:57 (permalink)
    FreeFlyBertl
    Hi Fabio,
     
    I downloaded (possibly) all updates to K5 in the past 2 years and kept the installers to be able to roll back in case the situation gets worse - so in case you can't rollback, PM me and I go dig out these installers from my backups and make them available to you ...
     
    Anyway, none of them made any difference in terms of that particular stability issue, and I need to give the latest one a few more hours of testing to see whether NI really addressed my problem ... but I'm on an Octa-Capture, so it's a (somewhat) different animal ...
     
    Rob




    Thanks a lot Rob for offering to do this. It's a kind of a risk at this point between taking a punt on rolling back and waiting for a possible fix. Most of the crashes I was experiencing with both Plt and X3 have stopped since not using Kontact in my projects - don't know about Melodyne in Plt yet and I haven't wanted to try it. This is a bit of bugger as well because I really liked Alicia's Key and have just recently purchased it...not to mention the Session Horns.
     
    So I think I'll just hang out for a while longer and hope NI come up with an effective solution here as I can't be absolutely certain that a roll-back will work - and conversely whether the up-and-coming 'fix' will as well...I suppose I can always hope.

    Sonar: Platinum, (X3e) - x64 
    PC: Win10 Pro 64;
    Computer: Gigabyte Z68X-UD3R-B3; Intel i7, 2600k @ 4.2 (8 Cores); 16 GB Corsair Ram;
    Visual Card: Gigabyte GTX 580;
    Audio Interface: RME UFX;
    Monitors: Adam A77X, Sub8;
    Midi Controllers: Komplete Kontrol S88,  Novation Bass Station 2; NI Maschine Mk 2; 
    Other Hardware: Joe Meek Twin Q Dual Studio Channel;
    Mics: RODE NT2-A, ASTON Spirit 
     
    Latest Song: Lay Down Before the War

    #26
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