Real-time Bounce Automation Problems (Sonar 7+8.3.1)

First, let me say that I really like Sonar, so please don't take this post as whining. I'm just desperate to solve a problem.

In Sonar 7, I ran into a problem where automation of CC1 and CC11 were not working for EW libraries during real-time bounces.

Here is a summary of the problem:
Automation of C1 and C11 in Kontakt2 with East West libraries does not work during real-time bouncing (it is fine during playback)
The automation works if "fast bounce" is enabled in Sonar and offline bounce mode is selected in Kontakt.
The problem does not seem to exist in previous versions of Sonar.
The problem also occurs in Kompakt in addition to Kontakt, and also in the new Play libraries.

Here is a link to another thread describing the problem:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1221289

Because the problem seems to occur with only the East West libraries, I would tend to think the problem is with the libraries. However, because the problem did not occur before Sonar 7 and does not occur on other DAW software, I have some tendency to think the problem is related to Sonar 7. I have been able to work around the problem with Kontakt, because fast bounces are possible, but Play has no such offline mode, thus requiring a real-time bounce.

So, has anyone that ran into this problem in Sonar 7 been able to confirm that the problem exists (or is gone) in Sonar 8? Thanks.

-EDIT- The problem has been confirmed in Sonar 8.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I've tried just about every possible latency setting and the problem still occurs. By the way, the problems occurs for Kontakt, Kompakt, and Play. There are other people on soundsonline-forums.com that have the exact same problem.

By the way, I have just confirmed the same problem exists in Sonar 8. Here is another thread with others who are having the same problem (post #39):

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=15813&page=4

I previously worked around the problem using fast bounce with Kontakt, but unfortunately fast bounce doesn't work with the Play libraries (at least for me).

yep - here's a direct link: http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showpost.php?p=148514&postcount=39




I don't believe this many people have stuck their head up their ass on this one. It just plain doesn't work - even if under certain circumstances does work, it clearly doesn't work all the time.

Jon

This not just an exclusive problem with East West products.

Been trying out my new Z3tA+ using the arpegiator mfx plugin... the mfx is recognized by the 'fast bounce' but is IGNORED when doing a real time.


I use 64bit version of Sonar PE 8. I wonder if the same problem exists in the 32bit version?

Regarding the 8.0.1 patch, the problem unfortunately still exists.

Just to help out, I have found a reasonable workaround for those with RME interfaces. If you enable the loopback feature, you can record the outputs in Sonar, just like they are inputs. So, instead of doing a bounce/export, just create an audio track, and record to it. Of course, you could do this without loopback by just connecting an output to an input, but you are going to lose some quality.

So now, I just use standalone for everything, loopback the output to an input, and record the input in realtime. While this certainly has disadvantages, it is actually nice because now all my sonar projects are now just midi, which means if I get a crash, I don't have to wait 15 minutes for samples to load again.

While we wait for an actual fix, I hope this helps!

You'll likely get a better description from the manual, but basically, you go into the Fireface mixer and crtl-click on one of the outputs (e.g. AN1). This should turn the output from white to red. Now, if I remember correctly, if you have an audio track that has input from AN1, you can record anything that is played back on output AN1. Sorry for convoluted explanation, but I'm short on time. It took me a while to figure out, but it does work nice. The only problem is that you likely can't bounce everything at once because recording the track will use additional resources which could create artifacts. But, it is certainly better than no real-time bouncing at all. :)

My guess is that is has something to do with the real-time bounce features that were introduced in Sonar 7. If I remember correctly, 7 was the first version that had true real-time bounces, allowing you to interface with external equipment. Since the automation worked before version 7, it is logical that this could be the cause.

It's good to see Cakewalk addressing this. Alex, I shared a number of emails about this with Willy Jones when it surfaced in S7 so he may have some previous research that can be expanded upon.

Thanks!

Andy

I'm late to the party but you can add me to the list of sufferers. I found this problem when I installed Kontakt 2. I usually like to make demo tracks when I get new gear. I was using a guitar sample set from the Kontakt library. I used a pitchbend automation envelope to add some not so subtle bends and vibrato curves. It runs beautifully in realtime. If I try to "bounce to tracks", it just sounds like loses it mid automation. I have tried it all the way back to Sonar 5. None work. Fast bounce in Sonar and Offline Bounce Mode in Kontakt have no effect. I can provide audio examples if needed.

My solution was to save the track as a midi file, open it(and Kontakt) in another DAW, and render it from there. I then imported that audio back into the Sonar project. The only glaring difference between the two DAWs is I can't use the ASIO drivers for my RME Fireface 400 in Sonar. I can in the other.

It might be important to note that in all the versions of Sonar I mentioned I can't record midi tracks with automation to audio by hitting record from a dead stop. The midi track just simply ignores all the automation. If hit play and then record(ala punch in), the automation works fine. This may or may not be related.

Thanks

Bill Gross

gs,

And you're right. Sorry. Dur! I'll leave my post intact just in case it helps...somehow.

Though, I just tested real-time bounce on that track I spoke of. It totally ignores the wheel automation. With fast bounce, it acknowledges some automation. I then reassigned the automation to cc1 and then 11. Neither worked at all when I tried real-time bounce. Normal playback works fine. Oh well.
Now this is interesting. Fast bounce would work only if the automation was basic. If it was complex or fast, as my initial automation was, it would not respond to it. I cleared the envelope and drew a line from 0 to 127 over 8 measures. Fast bounce had no problem. Of course, real-time bounce totally ignores it. Maybe it is the same....gonna do more tests.

Thanks, Alex!

bump

Will this be fixed in update 8.03?

I really need this to work in 'real time'