Recent lessons learned, new epihanies

  At the prompting of our friend Danny I went out and bought the matching sub for my Yamaha monitors & then gave ARC a 3rd try (it has never worked right for me and I have owned it for a couple of years).  With the sub it seems to be dead on & I can hear what I am actually doing, makes me wonder what the hell I was doing before.   You can't really work on sound effectively without being able to hear accurately, kinda like trying to paint with a blindfold on.
 
    In the last week I have found that you can't take anything for granted or assume anything in audio.  I assumed that I needed to flip the phase on my bottom snare mic because I usually do.... Halfway through a mix I was wondering what the hell was with this snare?....  The phase was aligned fine, I threw it off by flipping it.
   I have found my tendency to throw compressors on certain tracks just because I had done so in the past it both foolish and unnecessary, Start mixing the track and if you need a compressor to control a tracks dynamic movement... add it then.   I am learning to stop watching frequency analyzers and trust my ears, they are getting me to a far better balance of sound than my eyes are capable of. 
   I have learned how finicky a kick can be in a mix sometimes....  It's often easier to automate the level of the few real hard hits then wondering why the compressor makes those ones sound more clicky...  It is squashing them and bringing up too much of the highs.
 
   I have found that I hate the loudness wars, The bands I record want it hot, I want it to sound good.  This compromise only serves to tic me off.
 
I am sure there are more and I will add to this later.  I have to get going to work!
 

Inspiring post...I'll have to check out that sub too.  The guy I got my HS80M from kept it and would only sell me the speakers... (he's using it with his Focal TwinB's)... so that might say something.
 
Tip-toeing on "spam"....  I pretty much agree with what you're saying and sum it up in the link below with my vid.
thx for the insight and will be eager to hear what else you have to say...
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPYv7c7gzIE

Well... I haven't really compared the HS80M otherwise.  My JBL's used to be there and I thought this was a good setup for now.  I think I would actually prefer it though...getting the tweets out further, as I can't sit too close, as you might see from the pic....and it keeps me in the triangle.  If I could lower them, that would probably be my preference, but they ARE angled and I think less reflections off the mixer too.
In the [very?] near future, I really want to revamp everything...  Get the X32 Behringer board...or the smaller producer and the new computer  as SOON as I can first.  It's all working, but the need to upgrade is getting more and more overdue.  The computer wimpers with the video, so I'm hogging my wife's for now.  Also, I can't upgrade to X3 yet...because of the computer...so I'm a bit dissatisfied with that as well
Btw... if you have an expander... it makes the hand smaller and the pebble larger... in comparision.. MUCH easier to grab.

I am not sure about setting speakers on their side. The manual says nothing of being able to do that and that might be a little concerning. Usually if a speaker can be set sideways they will say something about it in the manual.
 
I personally feel the speakers in mixmks's setup are way too far apart. He would not be hearing the centre image so strong. Dual monitors is not always a good thing either. (do you really need them and can you work with one, that is the question!) Maybe a larger monitor might work. My speakers are about 41 inches apart and I sit that disatnce out from them too forming a really good triangle.
 
The speakers should be as far away from walls and things as well. If they are too close to walls and corners and things you can get into some trouble there too. They are too high in his setup as well. They need to be down with the tweeter right at ear level and pointing inwards. They will sound better that way as well.
 
You can get by with one Auratone speaker and I really like it directly in front of you right in the centre. Drive it with a mono L+R signal. You actually get more benefit from one rather than two.
 
You can have way too much gear right near and in the middle of the speaker setup. It is best off to one side. Keep the speaker monitoring setup simpler, way less cluttered etc. You will hear things a lot better as a result. His setup looks like the gear was all setup first and the speakers squeezed in last. Should be the otheer way around. Set up a perfect monitoring environment first and then fit in the rest of the gear in around that.
 
Just some suggestions Chris!
 
 

The manual shows all the pictures of the HS8's upright so I guess that might be some indication at least.
 
I still feel that speakers that are down lower right on ear level pointing directly at you sound better than speakers that are up higher and pointing down. I have had them lower and pointing direct to me for many years where as you it looks like have not experienced them that way only up higher pointing down.
 
Once you get them lower pointing directly, you will like the sound more over time I can guarantee it and you won't go back. There is just something wrong when they are up too high pointing down. Everytime I go into a studio where they are that way I can hear it. Every one tells you to have the tweeters at ear level. There is a good reason for it. Up high is a compromise, simple as that.
 
The reason why I like one Auratone type speaker too is that it shows up mono compatibilty issues of course. Also it lines up all your parts behind each other. Making them harder to distinguish. It forces you to go to the trouble more of separating parts by sound a bit more. Having two smaller speakers still gives you the panning and you might decide to leave two things alone because they sound separated whereas in reality they may not be. (that sounds weird I know because everyone will think stereo is the way the music is being heard but not always. I believe you have to be prepared for your music to be put into mono at anytime and still cut it. It is not just a TV thing it can be an anywhere thing!)
 
And then there is the other issue of sounds panned extreme left or right. In one speaker those sounds may get lost a little and you will then be onto making sure they are still heard a bit more. On two small speakers you wont notice that as much because the separation will keep them heard.
 

Actually, my head is about where you see it...so you'll be pleased it is pretty close in line.  I'm actually thinking though of putting the HS80M where the Auratones are ...and then move the Auratones where I have the two small pictures, directly behind the middle mixer section. That's legal...right?! :-D ... but I'd still violate the Yammies and leave them on their side!

Chris that shot is a little better I must admit. It shows a bit more. I agree with Chuck in that pulling the Yamahas down to where the Auratones are is a good idea. Leaving them on their side might also be slightly better in this case. Standing them up might put the tweeters a little higher.
 
Putting the Auratones close togther and in the middle is also a good idea as well. It puts them more directly in front and removes a bit of the stereo field too. That wont hurt in my opinion.
 
Personally I would not bother with the JBL's at all. They look to me to be just cluttering up the situation. I would set them up over the other side of the room somewhere and use them as Hi Fi speakers and for quick alternate mix checks, but that is just me I guess. I would put their grills back on too.
 
Here is how the good guys are using one Auratone! (ignore the Lexicon Remote control and look just above)
 
 
 
 
 
 
Another good thing about having your monitors closer together is that the triangle gets smaller and better. Less problems with the room. More speaker action. Not sure I have them as close as they are in this pic but similar.
There is a way for setting up how far apart your monitors should be as well.
 
A good thing to do is to set your speakers up on a long plank for the correct orientation. (In your case Chris you dont have to because you have the top shelf of your table setup. But you need to remove the computer monitors for this test though) You need two friends to do this. Feed a mono signal to both speakers (music pref something very nicely mixed eg Steely Dan) Start with them reasonably close togther eg 3 feet and centered in front of you. You close your eyes and listen for the phantom image in the centre. The two friends gently slide your monitors apart while you listen with your eyes closed. At some point the centre image will break up and fade away. That is the point when they are too far apart. The idea is to slide them back again so the phantom image re appears strongly. And maybe touch more in for extra measure. I have done this and this all happens at 1.1 meters for me and my room.
 
They can be too close together too and you get a bulging of the centre image ie it becomes too loud and you start holding centered pan things down only to find they are not loud enough on other systems.
 
You should do this test first and then see if two computer screens will fit in between. They may not. If they don't and you have to widen the monitors to fit them in then this is a compromise. You have weakened your centre image. Everything sounds better and more robust when the monitors are the right distance apart. This should be more important than anything else. I have got three screens actually but only one in betwen the speakears. The other two are on the right of the right speaker and it all works well.
 
Mastering houses never have two screens and the only one is usually pushed further back to stop reflections. (for mastering your centre screen really should be on a movable reticulation arm so it can be pushed well back behind the line of the speakers. Things can sound different when you do this) My son has given me a 27" monitor recently and I really like it. It handles all the stuff I need to see. (Use screensets more!) Use your ears more and your eyes less. (Like the old days, no screens at all!)

Jeff I appreciate the info, but I still disagree with much.  Plus...I don't think I can trust two people in my studio moving my speakers around with my eyes closed.  You know those musicians...   
Peace brother, and be blessed.

Jeff Evans
You are missing my point about using the small speaker or an Auratone for checking mixes.  It is not about how your mix actually sounds on a small mono speaker at all. TV as such etc...crappy systems etc..tape rewinds etc..
 
The idea of running your mix down low volume on a small speaker is about how well balanced the mix actually is. I call this the critical mix. It shows up all sorts of issues with how well balanced things are. Once you tweak them a bit in the small speaker it is all about putting the mix back up on your mains again and hearing how much nicer the balance ends up. I have said that a few times now. You are not getting it. You can still do this with just one speaker as well.
 
 

you mean you agree with the guy in this video??  (which happens to be me!)  you replied there...but seem to change your opinion on them now. (btw, ignore the phase cancellations garbage I talk about....but think UREI 811, etc)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLqL8TBD6LU

Jeff Evans
 
I am surprised you are reluctant to try the distance speaker test. Yes two friends can do it. Just pick trustworthy ones. It is a very interesting and revealing test to do. It will show up how poorly the centre phantom image is on wide setups. That is all.  When the distance is right that centre phantom image just jumps back to life and reappears.
 
None of us know everything. If you are really open you can always learn and add things to your knowledge base and keep improving what you know everyday of your life. It does not stop at some point. Each little thing you pick up improves your skill as an engineer and improves what you do.  Setting up correct speaker distances is definitely one of them.

WIth my speakers being just under 6 ft apart and I'm sitting back about 6 ft, I really don't want to trust two musicians and waste my time...  but feel free to "virtually" move them!

Although the HS80M aren't very similar to the NS-10 in sound, they are a descendant and share the designer.  I've only been in a zillion studios myself, and see all kinds of weird setups and I'd say especially on meter bridges, they were laid on their sides.  Generally having the tweets to the outside helps to spread the stereo field too.  BTW...what brand of TP do you use on your tweets!! ;-)  I'm going to guess most of the "old guys" around here, can't hear over 15Khz anyway...so I'm not sure what all the excitement is about.
I totally respect the other opinions AND people in this thread, but I think we are putting a magnifying glass on the big picture.  I mean really, the inexpensive speakers and home setups we're talking about, equalize out a lot of things.

My son wanted to buy some active monitors and we went into a shop where they had lots set up. I must say I was very impressed with the Yamaha HS series. (I started with them Chris because of your great recommendation) We were comparing HS5's to HS7's mainly and to other brands too. He ended up with the HS7's (manily budget) and they certainly sounded better in the bottom end than the HS5's. I believe the HS7's and 8's are similar but I could also imagine the 8's just going down that little bit further. (nice!)
 
So Chris I can really see why you like the Yamaha's They are very very good indeed especially for the money. We got the 7's for $570 pair.
 
We had some super reference material to test with. The KRK's were nowhere and I mean nowhere compared to the Yamaha's. Completely dull and lifeless. The cheaper Mackies were OK but a little hyped in the low end and coloured. I have the HR824's and they are in a league of their own Mackie wise but they are also considerably more expensive too. (Mine are on concrete stands and this changes a lot. The low end becomes non coloured and smoother and more extended. As a result the mids and highs move forward slightly. These speakers on concrete stands sound like a completely different speaker, hard to believe but true! Concrete stands are the ultimate)
 
The new JBL's sounded excellent as well and were very well balanced. They (the shop) say the Yamaha's are being preferred over much more expensive monitors too.
 
I have lived with NS10's too for about 6 months a while back. I repaired a set for someone and had the use of them for a while. They are very forward mids and highs wise and poor in the low end. They are good for translation but I don't like long term listening on them though. The new HS series although they have a white cone that is where the similarity ends though. They are way better than NS10's. Nice low end and lovely present mids and highs that you can listen to for long periods. A well balanced speaker overall. Yes the mids and highs are also a little forward but nothing like NS10's.
 
 

and just to ramble...which I like to do.. I had to mix on some NS10s in a studio in Nashville once and that was the ONLY set of speakers they had.  I was familiar with the speaker, prior to being in that situation, but my bass response totally bummed me out when I got home and played my mixes.  I think I cleaned the dust off all the nearby furniture.  They're great midrange comparison speakers...like the lil Auratones...but I got lost below 100Hz.
 

The JBL's pulled up very nice but I was hearing a larger woofer version, (308's I am pretty sure) not sure exactly but in the same size format as the Yamaha HS series. They were great and had a lovely open mids and highs like the Yamaha's did too. In fact switching between them it was sometimes hard to know which we were on which sort of spells the fact they must both be reasonably accurate.
 
If you wanted to use the smaller JBL's as extras to your Yamaha's then yes they could be excellent for that. If they were my only monitor I would go for the 8" woofers. They (5 " woofer model) would end up somewhere in between your main HS8's and the Auratones. I am finding the big switch between main speakers and small speaker OK too and I dont feel the need so much for something in between. But it would not hurt I guess. More the merrier!
 
I almost said in my last post that the NS10's sounded like hyped Auratones on steroids! But you beat me to it. We must think alike at times. Yes the bottom end can catch you out with NS10's for sure. I still had my Mackie HR824's when I had the NS10's so I had decent bottom end to compare. Danny Danzi has mentioned a sub with NS10's is much better and I could imagine that being the case.

dang...I meant JBL308 ...not 305...  but those would be nice too.