Helpful ReplyRecipes for Sonar Success

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Anderton
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/27 00:27:49 (permalink)
Kev999
 
I have projects with countless numbers of virtual instruments and lots of different multisamples loaded into SampleTank, SampleTron, multiple instances of Miroslav and DimPro, plus large kits in Battery 3, and more besides. And yet I have never even come close to maxing out my meagre 6GB of RAM. I could add more, but it would be a waste of money.




Those are fairly old instruments, created when RAM was at a premium. The entire SampleTank and Miroslav libraries are 7GB, and SampleTron is around 2.5GB IIRC; any given Battery kit doesn't take up much memory because drum one-shots are fairly short. So you can load up a lot of instruments and still stay reasonable with memory consumption.
 
Compare that with Vir's Electri6ity, where a single instrument won't run at all unless your computer has 6GB of RAM. Omnisphere's sample library is around 75GB and some of the instruments are pretty hefty. Although modern libraries can often stream from disk, you still need memory to store all the attacks so something will play while waiting for the disk to catch up.
 
Basically, as RAM as gotten less expensive over the years, designers create ever-larger libraries that take more and more RAM. I remember when I had to fit a piano in 64K for a synthesizer back in the 80s! Now 64GB is more like it
 
 

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#31
mettelus
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/27 02:41:37 (permalink)
This thread has a lot of golden nuggets dropped in it. One reason why I gravitated to CW in the first place, was I was learning programming back in the day and resource management was key. SONAR as a host has to have efficient programming or it cannot work, and it is even more impressive to have it work on older/less capable machines (HUGE kudos to the bakers for this). The advancement of technology and RAM availability has made some programmers very sloppy as they "can" and is a lazy shortcut to making code "clean and efficient."
 
(Unfortunately,) a DAW creates an environment that allows for omission of the rehearsal phase. As mentioned above, using a bad take and tweaking the crap out of it or slapping on a ton of effects adds resource loading to any machine, and not all VSTs are created equal. It would be nice to have resource usage inside of SONAR to see "resource usage by plugin." The added time overhead/extra resources required to tweak a bad take definitely supports rehearsal/retakes as a better alternative. I personally try to minimize plug-ins just for this reason alone.
 
Tweaking things can cause more problems than not, as people see "one thing" with tweaks, and not the overall system effect of them. Brundlefly's post is a good one on simple, effective tweaks, and I agree that getting carried away with them can cause more harm than good.
 
This machine is almost 3 years old now, and back when I built it I had only one focus - streamlining data flow through the box. I went with 8GB of RAM initially just to stress test it, and ironically have never had "need" to upgrade it. Even editing video (which is cached to a magnetic HDD), I have worked on 12GB files without issues. The graphics load of SONAR is not big at all, so a "hard core" graphics card is not a "must," but as Mystic38 pointed out, the additional resources available (and less CPU usage) by a dedicated high-end card does benefit the system.
 
As far as "fan noise," I think this is another plug to have noise reduction inside SONAR as a feature request. I happen to own Audition, and for anything consistent, it is very slick to remove that noise. It is so good, in fact, that I have come to abuse this feature... I know the Z3TA+2 video I made had a fan-driven ionic air purifier running the whole time about 4' from the mic - definitely NOT quiet, yet consistent, so noise reduction worked great. Audition's noise reduction is slick and powerful, and it would be nice for SONAR to have this right inside the host.
 
I will get in these stints to purposefully try to crash things "just for fun," and I have proven that the "dedicated DAW" is not necessary if the machine has the resources available. I run the onboard sound card all the time, and the ASIO aggregation of the Focusrite Saffire has added to my "brazenness" of running multiple programs simultaneously (through both sound interfaces now because of this feature). I actually do this quite often.
 
Interesting aside to the above... a couple weeks ago I decided to record 15 hours of tapes that I wanted to preserve. Simple stereo recordings, one track at a time. I needed to listen to them as I went, so I could take notes on sections to split out the tracks later on. That specific part made the evolution become as boring as watching paint dry, so I began tasking the system more and more to try to get a system crash... I saved the project between tracks, but started small... simple programs, then bigger and bigger until the last few tracks I was editing video, and playing games (some pretty intense ones running full screen mode that required me to alt-tab back to SONAR to get time stamps of transitions). Yada, yada... bottom line... 15 hours later, after opening/closing programs galore, never rebooting the machine, and tracking/listening to these tapes, I failed to crash the machine
post edited by mettelus - 2014/04/28 06:29:16

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#32
Kev999
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/27 06:05:25 (permalink)
wst3
Kev999
...I have never even come close to maxing out my meagre 6GB of RAM.


...I start to hit the wall with 8GB of RAM with just four instance of Kontakt...


Anderton
Kev999
...lots of different multisamples loaded into SampleTank, SampleTron, multiple instances of Miroslav and DimPro, plus large kits in Battery 3, and more besides...


Those are fairly old instruments...
...Compare that with Vir's Electri6ity, where a single instrument won't run at all unless your computer has 6GB of RAM. Omnisphere's sample library is around 75GB and some of the instruments are pretty hefty. Although modern libraries can often stream from disk, you still need memory to store all the attacks so something will play while waiting for the disk to catch up...


I don't have Kontakt, Omnisphere or Electri6ity, so I guess that's why I never hit the RAM ceiling.  If most people are using these softsynths, then I guess that your statement about 16GB RAM being the standard minimum is probably correct. However, as these are not exactly cheap products, I suspect that maybe they are not quite as ubiquitous as you seem to be suggesting.

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#33
oldsneakers
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/27 06:44:21 (permalink)
I back up all my audio files to an external hard drive. My ADK PC is getting on in years and the inevitable C: HD crash was making me lose sleep. So I opened it up and got the make and model of the drive and bought another one. I plugged it into the system and used Paragon backup software to clone the C drive to the backup drive. After I'm done I reboot with the copied drive to make sure it's working right. Then put it on the shelf in case of emergency. I do another backup if I make any significant changes to it.
#34
lawp
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/27 08:32:27 (permalink)
It would be useful if cakewalk could reach out to users and share the specs of the machines/hw they actually develop and test on, would save a lot of gnarl...

sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
#35
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/27 17:13:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/04/27 17:15:03
A few tips...
 
1 Resist the temptation to over optimize the system. I see tweaks to the system that are outdated or not applicable any more. These cause more harm than good.
 
2 buy the most powerful computer system for your daw that you can afford, but don't buy the absolute top of the line bleeding edge. The newest systems can sometimes have more problems since they are not as mainstream and thereby less tested.
 
3 Install software using the default configuration options as far as possible. If necessary you reconfigure it manually later. Even though its offered, do not migrate settings from your SONAR 1 software installation :) Many defaults have been tweaked for better performance in newer versions and migrating old settings will carry forward old stuff that might actually hurt performance. Also the factory configuration is the most widely tested. SONAR offers a "reset configuration to defaults" option that can be used to revert back to factory settings for the audio configuration.
 

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#36
Grem
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/27 17:26:03 (permalink)
So Noel when I get X4, your saying not to import settings from X3, or another older version of X or Sonar?

Or are you saying not to import settings from Sonar 1 specifically?

Grem

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#37
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/27 19:49:23 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby thomasabarnes 2014/04/27 21:42:10
I would choose to not import settings and let the install be treated as a new install. Then go in and change stuff like folder paths to any custom settings you may have. I find this a much more robust approach since you will get to see all the latest defaults in the app.

Noel Borthwick
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#38
Grem
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/27 23:07:47 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I would choose to not import settings and let the install be treated as a new install. Then go in and change stuff like folder paths to any custom settings you may have. I find this a much more robust approach since you will get to see all the latest defaults in the app.




OK. Now I understand. I think I did that for X1. But from then on, and before, I always imported my settings.
 
Now I know why not to.
 
Thanks Noel

Grem

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#39
BJN
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/27 23:10:25 (permalink)
I have had plenty of help from geo over the years. From studiotrax forum. Cheers geo!
 
I got a big online PC builder stationed locally where I can pick it up and upgraded the case and RAM.
 
(I'd recommend this over buying from a big electrical store as their computers are often brand named but have older components and way more expensive. Get the latest from an online builder. If you want them to upgrade to super quiet probably better from a specialized audio PC builder.)
 
Been happy with it. That Sonar performs so well on off the shelf PCs nowadays is a testimonial to how stable it is. So long as you keep abreast of  comparability issues like in the past some MB or other peripherals might clash.
 
But as Craig points out, when it is the choice between a specialized gamer machine or a music designed PC around the same cost.   

-------------------------------------------------------
Magic: when you feel inspired to create which in turn inspires more creation.
 
And the corollary: if magic happens inspiration might flog it to death with numerous retakes.
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#40
BJN
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/27 23:21:32 (permalink)
 
 
Regularly open your PC and remove dust buildup from the CPU and while you are at it the PSU
 

Computers operate on such low voltages that static build up from dust will interfere with its operation.
It is so common that many a computer upgrade as been because of failure to clean out the dust. 
Many "Sonar crashed my PC" statements are false and the result of dust build up.
It can cause the sudden switch off and even the dreaded blue screen and the failure to boot up  and stall is a tell tale sign you have dust.
 
At least every 6 months detach the CPU fan. This can be the heatsink on modern PCs and physically remove the dust. (check manual  but either screws or clips. If you are uncertain, get your local computer store to do it.) 
 
 
 

-------------------------------------------------------
Magic: when you feel inspired to create which in turn inspires more creation.
 
And the corollary: if magic happens inspiration might flog it to death with numerous retakes.
Bart Nettle
#41
fif4lifefif
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/28 19:45:40 (permalink)
BJN
 
At least every 6 months detach the CPU fan. This can be the heatsink on modern PCs and physically remove the dust. (check manual  but either screws or clips. If you are uncertain, get your local computer store to do it.) 
 
 
 



This seems a bit extreme to me, though YMMV. I've built quite a few PCs for my audio use over the years and, while dust buildup is occasionally an issue, I've found that the computer becomes obsolete long before the dust becomes problematic.

Somebody with more in-depth technical knowledge/experience may correct me, but routinely removing the heatsink seems a bit dangerous to me; the paste interfacing the heatsink and the CPU forms a nice, tight seal over time, encouraging efficient thermal connectivity to allow optimal cooling. I'd think removing the heatsink would disrupt this process. Seems like a pretty tight space for dust to be getting into, anyhow.

Maybe I've just been fortunate enough to live in a pretty dustless environment. Not too dusty here in Philadelphia. :]

Check out my music! :]
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#42
Geo524
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/28 21:00:32 (permalink)
fif4lifefif
BJN
 
At least every 6 months detach the CPU fan. This can be the heatsink on modern PCs and physically remove the dust. (check manual  but either screws or clips. If you are uncertain, get your local computer store to do it.) 
 
 
 



This seems a bit extreme to me, though YMMV. I've built quite a few PCs for my audio use over the years and, while dust buildup is occasionally an issue, I've found that the computer becomes obsolete long before the dust becomes problematic.
+1. My internet PC has been around for as long as Vista has been out and it still runs pretty darn good. I've used compressed air to blow the dust out of it from time to time but I'd never consider removing the CPU fan.



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#43
Grem
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/28 22:08:51 (permalink)
I've built quite a few boxes in my time, fixed countless others. Dust on the CPU fan, and the power supply is the first thing I look for. In older homes down here in the south dust is bad. So it's not out the ordinary. However, I rarely remove the fan unless I have to.
 
 

Grem

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#44
BJN
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/28 23:01:52 (permalink)
Okay fair enough.
PC sure are obsolete quick and there are those who like the latest especially gamers.
With audio I like my PC to last as long as possible.
I have used the vac with attachment on the fan after about 6 months. A year later the fan has to come off and nowadays that means the heatsink. DO NOT CLEAN OFF THE CONDUCTIVE PASTE. and you'll be right.
The dust cakes on and you'll needs an old toothbrush to remove the crud between the fins.
The compressed air is a good idea geo. I can see that being better than a vac attachment.

-------------------------------------------------------
Magic: when you feel inspired to create which in turn inspires more creation.
 
And the corollary: if magic happens inspiration might flog it to death with numerous retakes.
Bart Nettle
#45
fif4lifefif
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/28 23:25:29 (permalink)
Vacuum attachment sounds like more fun, though.

Check out my music! :]
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#46
jm24
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/29 06:44:58 (permalink)
I recommend a yearly "blow-out" to myself and my clients.
 
I have replaced 2 power supplies I know failed from dust accumulation. One on a shop floor had exploded capacitors. And I have serviced 3 laptops that would not function because of dust and debris blocking fan vents.
 
No doubt some of the dead motherboards I have encountered became so because of non-vented heat.
 
The worst I have seen was from an apartment kept immaculate, wood floors, everything in its perfect place. The computer had been in place/use for about 3 years when I was contacted to help with a viri thang.  I figger it was mostly because the machine was near a return air vent.
 
I use a small paint compressor with a squirty nossle.
 
There have been times when I had to remove the heatsink to clean the fan with a brush. Prolly a high humidity space and the dust got stuck to the fan blades.
 
Always, the first step when working on a computer is to scan for and fix file system errors.
 
During a first visit I also inspect the innards for dust, loose cables,...
 
Know of a guy who started having computer crashes.  He reinstalled the OS 6 times before he discovered the damage done to a disk cable by a mouse.
 
In the beginning I had some trouble with loose SATA cables. Got some with clips. Fix the hardware first and the software will follow.
#47
mettelus
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/29 06:45:50 (permalink)
BJN
DO NOT CLEAN OFF THE CONDUCTIVE PASTE. and you'll be right.


The thermal paste dries slowly over time; so if that interface is EVER broken, it actually should be cleaned off and have new thermal paste applied. That paste is inexpensive, and when it begins to dry it does not create the same seal as it did when it was first done.

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#48
Kev999
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/29 06:59:59 (permalink)
BJN
...A year later the fan has to come off and nowadays that means the heatsink. DO NOT CLEAN OFF THE CONDUCTIVE PASTE. and you'll be right...



Removing the heatsink and not cleaning off the thermal paste sounds like bad advice to me. I would say there is no reason to detach a heatsick from a CPU unless you are replacing it will a new one. And if you do remove it (as mettalus said) clean it off thoroughly before applying some fresh paste (or alternative conductor).

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#49
seed
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/29 11:53:37 (permalink)
how do you know when it's your RAM getting taxed rather than your CPU?
 
 
 
anyways....my noob recipe for success (that I am learning the hard way):
 
-Take the time to understand the optimal file/folder structure before installing your DAW and other plugins.  things will run smoother and your workflow will improve when everything is in the proper place.  this is an area where you really HAVE to get it right the first time - or else you will likely deal with permanent misplacements that can only be corrected by reinstalling (which can be a pain depending on your arsenal)
 
 
#50
Beepster
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/29 12:26:50 (permalink)
I haven't read the thread but I would like to add (if it hasn't been said already)...
 
Upgrade to Sonar X3.
 
I had hard crashes with X1 and it was an absolute bear to use. X2 was a total glitchfest and still had some half baked features. X3 has been nothing but delightful and I'm still on the C patch and I have not changed a darned thing on my system. Little annoying my first experiences with Sonar weren't all that great but in the long run my initial instinct to go with X1 has proven to be a wise one.
 
Also I never would have come close to the skill level I have achieved in such a short time (although admittedly I still have a long way to go) without the support of the Cake community. I kind of disagree with the point Craig made about coming here for help. Sure you should explore all avenues independently and there is a certain level of white noise with all the various perspectives threads garner that can be a little daunting/distracting but more often than not, in my experience, someone will hit on the correct solution and even the answers that don't end up solving the problem tend to offer some more insight into the intricacies of the program, it's possible uses and computer based audio in general. Also, when everyone is getting along, it's a much nicer place to hang out than many other p2p forums... so that's nice.
 
It's been awesome having you functioning in a more official capacity, Mr. Anderton. Keep up the good work.
#51
Paul G
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/29 12:51:26 (permalink)
Kev999
 
Or, if you can't afford a separate PC or don't have the space to put it, then dual-boot is a good alternative.


I've been using a HD swap tray for years.  A stripped down install of Win7 with all network and non essential windows stuff shut off.
 
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#52
Shambler
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/29 13:23:15 (permalink)
Dual booting using 2 separate drives is as good as having one pc just for music production and another for gaming.

When purchasing a PC research motherboards that have no known issues with audio production/streaming.

Only surf the net to trusted websites when running from your DAW drive, thus means there's no need for virus checkers or spam blockers or any fancy firewall other than what windows has built in.

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#53
jm24
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success 2014/04/30 09:34:44 (permalink)
Always create a restore point before installing any new hardware drivers. Many of the install processes will create a partial restore point. A manual one will be complete and will show in the restore list.   And a manual restore point before any big windows updates.
 
This is especially true for video drivers.
 
About monthly, and fur shur BEFORE AND AFTER big installs, create an image. I most often use an internal and copy to external. Much faster with an internal disk. Don't currently have a SATA port for external.  
 
Always create an image before any OS changes: 8, 8.1, 8.11,...
 
I will use the disk clean tool to get most of the debris. Then will open the user and windows temp folders and delete the remnants. Then move any downloaded files to be kept to the correct disk/folder.
 
I will stop the swap/page file, and hibernate function, reboot and verify the files are gone.
Some times I will defrag the disk. I use auslogics in optimize mode.
 
Create the image, and start the hibernate and swap functions.
 
And then, after the update is installed and working I will create a new image.
 
 
#54
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