Anderton
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Recipes for Sonar Success
We spend a lot of time in this forum trying to figure out why some people have a problem with their particular setup, but we don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out why most people DON'T have a problem with their setup. This thread is intended to fill that void. I'll kick off with some of the things I've learned. 1. A computer integrated for music is a great place to start. I'm sure you've all seen Jim Roseberry's helpful posts. Well, he integrates computers for music, and they rock. I don't recall seeing a weird Sonar problem with someone having one of Jim's computers in a sig. I've been using machines from PC Audio Labs for years, and they've been rock solid. Ditto my experiences with ADK machines from Scott. Sure, you pay $1,000 and more compared to getting an Office Depot Special for $399. $1,000 is not trivial, but the amount of aggravation and time you'll save is probably worth twice as much. And avoid gaming machines; they're not the droid you're looking for. 2. Treat your computer like a multitrack tape recorder. Use a different computer, like the aforementioned $399 box from Office Depot (or what used to be your music computer), to do your taxes, write notes, crop photos, and all that other personal stuff. Separate church and state, and both will be happier. 3. Back up. This seems so obvious, but whenever someone posts about losing hours of work because of a crash...the crash was the system's fault; losing hours of work was the user's fault. 4. Practice safe update. Yes, you will need to attach your computer to the net sometimes. If you get an alert that there's an update to Adobe Reader, don't download it! Go to the Adobe site and download it there. Ditto Java etc. I also get my Windows Updates directly from the Microsoft site. 5. Commit to 32-bit or 64-bit and stick with it (although I highly recommend 64). Systems with a mix 'n' match combination of 32- and 64-bit programs and plug-ins and a bunch of wrappers are trouble waiting to happen. 6. Don't read the documentation. That's right...I'm saying that because I know you won't read it anyway  . BUT do use the documentation's Index and Search functions. I have to learn a lot of software, and I basically just plod along until I run into something I don't know or have a problem. Then I dig into the documentation, get the answer, and carry on a little smarter than when I started. 7. This forum ISN'T the first place to go to solve a problem. Google, Bing, etc. are great for finding common solutions. For example, searching on "Cakewalk Sonar [name of interface] problem known issue" is often all you need to find out if, for example, there are issues with a particular interface. Compared to the forum, you'll often end up in a previous thread where there has already been substantial discussion, so you don't have to wait for a thread to unfold over the next several days. 8. Don't let a cat walk on your keyboard when you're in the middle of a session. Just sayin.' I don't think they memorize the keyboard shortcuts, but if they do, it's so they can pick the problematic ones. Anyone else want to contribute their recipes for success?
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fb.seeker
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/25 17:06:12
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Not even on the edge of your ballpark, but: 1. Read and follow this forums subjects, solutions and directions. Setup bookmark/s with specific subjects and mark any of the subjects "You may need in future". 2. Breakdown the system into workable sections you can learn and understand. This is how the video's are created by Craig and others. Also some of the video's available, especially some bargains this month are great learning and reference sources. 3. Craigs #7 is a big +1 or more. Accidentally discovered this looking at another subject. Then used it more. 4. Learn the fine art of inventing new Cuss words. 5. Enjoy this journey as much as possible.
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John
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/25 17:28:07
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☄ Helpfulby jbow 2014/04/27 11:26:13
However! If you do come to this forum for help please stick around or at least check back often. Most times answerers are provided quickly. Often to serve better more information is needed. Thus if the OP will stay on line and interact with the forum a solution can come quicker. If one is an old hand and is running into a problem not reading the manual wont hurt much and using the index is a great way to find solutions. BUT new users need to read the manual if for no other reason then learning the nomenclature of Sonar. This means we will know what you are talking about. A report after a solution is given and works helps in letting us know if the problem is truly solved. Writing very long posts only makes people not want to answer. Try to keep it short.
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wst3
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/25 17:49:57
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/04/27 01:36:45
just a couple more... from a dinosaur's perspective: - Just because you can does NOT mean that you should or must. I can edit the life out of any track with V-Vocal, Melodyne, and AudioSnap, not to mention plain old slip-editing. But I can also get a great take, even if it isn't the first take. I'm not suggesting that all these tools do not provide artistic, and even practical opportunities, but you'll be a lot happier if you start with great performances.
- Speaking of which - garbage in equals, at best, polished garbage out! The single most important lesson I ever learned was to match the microphone to the instrument, and the performer, and the space. That doesn't apply to folks using only virtual instruments, but the rest of us should at least think about it. While I won't share names, the gentleman that taught me to think this way has a LOT of gold and platinum hanging on his walls. If it is good enough for him<G>...
- Don't be afraid to commit (yeah, that can be difficult for some of us, I'llskip the musician jokes for now). Sometimes you really do run out of steam. If you really can't decide just how deep the flanger should be then create an audio track that is 100% wet, then you can still adjust effect depth without straining the CPU.
- That doesn't apply only to effects... the same is true for basic processing. If you really need compression or equalization use them, print them to a new track, archive or backup the original (unprocessed) track, and move on.
- Remember that no matter the style or genre, you are producing music. Composition and arrangement will have as much or more of an impact on the mix than any processor or effect.
- Don't get a new plug-in (effect, processor or instrument) or library until you have learned the ones you have, or determined that you won't use it. Then, buy these things one at a time so you don't get overwhelmed.
- Set up track templates to do some of the heavy lifting for you. These days I am trying to set up Kontakt templates, it is a lot of tedious, BORING, work. IF I complete the task it will make my life much easier. I have other track templates set up for specific synthesizers,
- If you are using key-switched virtual instruments consider using control tracks. I use two MIDI tracks per instrument, so a fully loaded instance of Kontakt will have 32 MIDI tracks and 16 audio tracks... yeah, it sounds cumbersome, but it really isn't. OR, consider mapping key switches to continuous controllers. I'm still experimenting<G>! The benefits of CCs include no clutter in the PRV or staff view, and you can chase controllers, you can not chase key switches.
-- Bill Audio Enterprise KB3KJF
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JimmyBoy
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/25 17:57:20
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Being relatively new to this, the pain of getting started is still fresh in my memory and +1 on John's comment. If it weren't for the forum users here I would have dropped the ball on Cakewalk. 1. One very clever person once told me, (that is, my brother hehe) is that teaching logic is one of the most difficult tasks to do... This is why we need to practice, some a lot more than others...
 You this read wrong.... JimmyBoy SoundCloud Sonar Producer X3e, Z3TA+2.1, TH2 x64 2.2.17 Full, Amplitude 3, Windows 10 x64, ...HP ENVY 17-j005tx Notebook, IDT High Definition Audio CODEC, ASIO4aLL2 HP ENVY Recline 27-k001a TouchSmart, Scarlett 2i2, Samson G-Track, Samson Graphite 49 [utube] https://youtu.be/Uds7g3M-4lQ[/utube]
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brundlefly
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/25 19:12:24
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☄ Helpfulby jb101 2014/04/26 05:27:33
- If you're going to do a lot of composing of original material in MIDI, get a decent keyboard controller and learn to play and record as much as you can in real time. Having a dedicated "button" for every note that sends start time, velocity and duration in real time is a very powerful thing. Editing in the PRV is great, but, with few exceptions, composing from scratch in the PRV is a productivity and groove killer. Remember, they don't actually build the ship inside the bottle. - Regarding Googling for answers, put site:forum.cakewalk.com after the keywords to find relevant threads on the forum. And adding "brundlefly" as a keyword will often get you the best answer.
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/25 21:15:39
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I am SOOO resisting the urge to flag Brundlefly's last post as Spam :) Great points. It sure does seem that this go round of X3e is certainly one of, if not THE, best versions of Sonar ever released. Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Geo524
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/25 21:35:58
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I practice 2 and 4 of Craig's post religiously. I only surf and do other tasks with my Compaq Win Vista machine. I have both a custom built PC (Firwewire) and a newer gaming PC (USB). Both are used for music recording only. Both are Windows 7 64 bit, are similar in specs as far as CPU, RAM, etc... and they perform equally well with the gaming PC feeling a tad better. Probably cause it's newer and is slightly more powerful. Both are offline and only get connected to the internet for important MS updates. I'm curious though... why avoid gaming PC's?
Win 10 x 64; CbB; SPlat; MixCraft 8 Pro; AMD FX4130, 3.8 GHz; DDR3 32 GB Ram; Focusrite Scarlett 18i20; SSD 1TB, 2 x 1TB and 1 x 640 GB HDD; Mackie HR624 Monitors, KRK G2 Rockit 5's, Dual HP S2331 23" MonitorsMusic and SFX http://www.radiosparx.com/georgeandmarguerite
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/25 22:59:16
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Well, lots of gaming computers are set up to maximize for VIDEO, and that can sometimes be problematic, due to having video processing take precedence over streaming audio, and that would be bad for Sonar - that sort of thing. For Sonar, memory, CPU power, and hard drive type/number of/configuration seem to be the bigger issues than video. Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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musicroom
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 00:36:30
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Lot's of great tips in here that can and WILL save hours of frustration and downtime. With all of them being good - Craig's #1 suggestion is the most powerful problem solver. I have had a couple of problems here and there, but in the main scheme of things, not many. Why is that? I think it's simple. Having an optimized computer along with a solid audio interface / drivers cures as many problems as a so-so b-ball team with a great shooter. While other have complained with legitimate show stoppers for them, I've had the pleasure of mostly trouble free operations with all versions including the ridiculed X1 - and at that time I was using "gasp" Vista 64 with all updates installed. Why is that - - - I'll tell you. I have a Jim Roseberry machine I purchased in 2009. It still rocks and is dependable if not more than my previous setup of a Fostex 16 track reel to reel with a JL Cooper Smpte time code generator/reader. A great computer can power through so many software and operator shortcomings. I'm living proof.
Dave Songs___________________________________ Desktop: Platinum / RME Multiface II / Purrfect Audio DAW I7-3770 / 16 GB RAM / Win 10 Pro / Remote Laptop i7 6500U / 12GB RAM / RME Babyface
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Mystic38
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 05:54:24
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☄ Helpfulby markyzno 2014/04/26 10:04:23
Cant agree with this.. a) A low end graphics card relies on the CPU for processing and system ram for memory, hence that IS bad for Sonar performance. b) High end graphics cards present the smallest possible overhead to the system. They do as much of the work as is possible. c) The amount of video processing required is determined by the monitor number, color depth, resolution, refresh rate but most importantly, the demands of the application. Having a powerful video card simply gives increased processing speed and capability to enable the application to run at its optimum rate. cheers, robert_e_bone Well, lots of gaming computers are set up to maximize for VIDEO, and that can sometimes be problematic, due to having video processing take precedence over streaming audio, and that would be bad for Sonar - that sort of thing. For Sonar, memory, CPU power, and hard drive type/number of/configuration seem to be the bigger issues than video. Bob Bone
HPE-580T with i7-950, 8G, 1.5T, ATI6850, Win7/64, Motu 828 III Hybrid, Motu Midi Express, Sonar Platinum, Komplete 9, Ableton Live 9 & Push 2, Melodyne Editor and other stuff, KRK VXT8 Monitors Virus Ti2 Polar, Fantom G6, Yamaha S70XS, Novation Nova, Novation Nova II, Korg MS2000, Waldorf Micro Q, NI Maschine Studio, TC-VoiceLive Rack, 2012 Gibson Les Paul Standard, 2001 Gibson Les Paul DC, 1999 Fender Am Hardtail Strat, Fender Blues Jr, Orange TH30/PPC212, Tak EF360GF, one mic, no talent.
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Kev999
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 06:20:53
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Anderton 2. Treat your computer like a multitrack tape recorder. Use a different computer, like the aforementioned $399 box from Office Depot (or what used to be your music computer), to do your taxes, write notes, crop photos, and all that other personal stuff. Separate church and state, and both will be happier.
Or, if you can't afford a separate PC or don't have the space to put it, then dual-boot is a good alternative.
SonarPlatinum∞(22.11.0.111)|Mixbus32C(4.3.19)|DigitalPerformer(9.5.1)|Reaper(5.77)FractalDesign:DefineR5|i7-6850k@4.1GHz|16GB@2666MHz-DDR4|MSI:GamingProCarbonX99a|Matrox:M9148(x2)|UAD2solo(6.5.2)|W7Ult-x64-SP1 Audient:iD22+ASP800|KRK:VXT6|+various-outboard-gear|+guitars&basses, etc. Having fun at work lately
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gswitz
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 06:41:00
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IDK if I agree with Craig's post much. - I didn't start with a computer built for audio (too big a commitment).
- I use my computer for anything I want, including software development and taxes.
- I do backup stuff I care about.
- I don't practice safe update. If things stop working, I rebuild.
- I've been on 64 bit since Vista, but when I went 64 bit I went back and forth for a while. It took time to get the build correct for drivers for all my gear.
- I do read manuals. Sometimes, I read them without a specific purpose in mind.
- It's cheap to post questions to the forum. I try not to embarrass myself, but short of that, I don't hesitate.
- I've made so many mid session screw ups... I'd just say I learn as I go and don't sweat the lost recording. I just plug in and do it again.
For me, the recipe for success has been steady persistence.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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markyzno
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 10:07:14
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Kev999
Anderton 2. Treat your computer like a multitrack tape recorder. Use a different computer, like the aforementioned $399 box from Office Depot (or what used to be your music computer), to do your taxes, write notes, crop photos, and all that other personal stuff. Separate church and state, and both will be happier.
Or, if you can't afford a separate PC or don't have the space to put it, then dual-boot is a good alternative.
Or use VMWARE Player. I have Windows 7 on my Windows 8 machine. Comes in VERY handy indeed.
Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >Sound Design on IMDB --
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markyzno
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 10:10:06
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Mystic38 Cant agree with this.. a) A low end graphics card relies on the CPU for processing and system ram for memory, hence that IS bad for Sonar performance. b) High end graphics cards present the smallest possible overhead to the system. They do as much of the work as is possible. c) The amount of video processing required is determined by the monitor number, color depth, resolution, refresh rate but most importantly, the demands of the application. Having a powerful video card simply gives increased processing speed and capability to enable the application to run at its optimum rate. cheers,
robert_e_bone Well, lots of gaming computers are set up to maximize for VIDEO, and that can sometimes be problematic, due to having video processing take precedence over streaming audio, and that would be bad for Sonar - that sort of thing. For Sonar, memory, CPU power, and hard drive type/number of/configuration seem to be the bigger issues than video. Bob Bone
I am with Mystic on this. I have 3 graphics cards, AMD, NVIDIA and a built in on Motherboard one. This enables me to run 4 monitors which MASSIVELY helps my work flow with Sonar and as its 3 cards doesnt hog my CPU or put too much load on one particular card with regards to voltage and therefore fan noise.
Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >Sound Design on IMDB --
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markyzno
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 10:12:27
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/04/27 01:19:48
I'd like to add a point in this. If it aint broke dont try and fix it. So many times I see Users with a perfectly good system go and try and squeeze every last millimetre of juice out of a machines performance or streamlining windows and run into dreadful problems that are their own making. Most PC's now are perfectly powerful enough to run everything you want, especially in a 64 bit environment.
Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >Sound Design on IMDB --
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Anderton
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 10:57:30
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Mystic38 Cant agree with this.. a) A low end graphics card relies on the CPU for processing and system ram for memory, hence that IS bad for Sonar performance. b) High end graphics cards present the smallest possible overhead to the system. They do as much of the work as is possible. c) The amount of video processing required is determined by the monitor number, color depth, resolution, refresh rate but most importantly, the demands of the application. Having a powerful video card simply gives increased processing speed and capability to enable the application to run at its optimum rate.
I think these days, even low-end video cards have their own CPU and a decent amount of RAM. And I agree that it's most certainly possible to have a high-end gaming system that works extremely well for audio, especially if you're a savvy user. But it's not just about video; there are some major differences compared to computers integrated for audio. Noise level. This is a very big deal for me. Gaming computers often have lots of fans, and high-end gaming cards invariably have one (some of the higher-end machines have two graphics cards so there are two fans). I use an ATI video card that doesn't need a fan, and before that I used a fanless Matrox, which really helps with the S/N ratio in the studio itself. Also, good music computers typically have some kind of acoustical treatment inside the case. The boxes don't look as cool as gaming computers, but they're quieter. High-resolution mice. These have been documented to have negative effects in many audio setups. Form factor. Rack-mount gaming computers may exist, but I haven't seen any. Although many music computers are towers, serveer-type rack-mount models are available if that's what you need. Lack of RAM. Typical gaming computers have 8GB of RAM, which is fine for what most gamers need because the high-end graphics card(s) offload to their own RAM. Of course there are more costly models with extra RAM, but with music computers, the idea of having lots of RAM is standard. For heavy-duty audio where you're loading virtual instruments into RAM, 16GB is pretty much the minimum you need, and 32GB will make for a much better user experience. Of course you can expand RAM, but a lot of users don't want to have to get overly technical with a machine. Storage. Doing audio work requires lots of storage. It can be difficult for an end user to add additional internal hard drives with some gaming machines, and many ship with only 1TB or 2TB of storage in a single drive. For audio work you really need three internal drives - a system drive, a drive for audio data, and a drive for sound library storage. You can always add USB or FireWire hard drive storage, but I have four internal drives in my machine AND two external USB drives as a matter of course, not including separate backup drives. As to graphics cards, I think it depends somewhat on the usage. I have talked with people who use devices that put major trafifc on the PCI bus, like "DSP farm" boards. They tell me that some graphics cards really hog the bus. I don't know enough to verify whether that's true or not, but they seemed quite certain that can be an issue and they changed graphics cards as a result. Granted you can build your own machine, or modify a gaming machine to have the extras needed for audio work. But it's clear from some of the posts here that many users are musicians, not computer experts, and they just want to be able to pull out a credit card or write a check and get a machine. The thread title is "recipes for success," and I still believe that if they write a check to the company that makes computers specifically for music, by and large they will have a more successful experience than spending the same amount of money on a computer optimized for gaming.
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Anderton
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 11:03:48
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If Jim Roseberry wants to chime in here and support or refute any of my points, that would be welcome. Given his level of knowledge I don't think anyone would perceive it as a spammy sort of post.
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markyzno
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 11:06:02
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Anderton Storage. Doing audio work requires lots of storage. It can be difficult for an end user to add additional internal hard drives with some gaming machines, and many ship with only 1TB or 2TB of storage in a single drive. For audio work you really need three internal drives - a system drive, a drive for audio data, and a drive for sound library storage. You can always add USB or FireWire hard drive storage, but I have four internal drives in my machine AND two external USB drives as a matter of course, not including separate backup drives.
Couldnt agree more....In the Audio film world its a nightmare with storage as I have to contain large video files also (plus I am also a musician so have that as well)... A good investment is a NAS box, mine serves me extremely well and its also the place I backup my Windows libraries and system every night. The good thing about the NAS is that its RAID so if one drive fails I'll plop it out and put another one in so I have a failover. A no brainer really and they arent that expensive anymore.
Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >Sound Design on IMDB --
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brundlefly
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 12:31:13
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/04/27 01:20:58
markyzno If it aint broke dont try and fix it. So many times I see Users with a perfectly good system go and try and squeeze every last millimetre of juice out of a machines performance or streamlining windows and run into dreadful problems that are their own making.
+1 Other than disabling CPU throttling, power management, and anything that measurably affects DPC latency (e.g. WiFi), and minimizing the number of TSRs loaded at startup, excessive system tweaking tends to be more problematic than helpful. Incidentally, although I generally agree that a dedicated, purpose-built, audio-optimized PC is ideal for best performance and reliability, I've personally had very good and stable performance with my off-the-shelf Dell (and other OTS machines before it), and I use it for everything. If music were my living, I might not be quite so cavalier about all the web surfing and other things I do on it. But if you exercise a moderate level of caution in what you download and execute with some basic firewall and anti-virus/spyware protection in place, it's quite possible to use your all-purpose PC as a DAW without ever suffering any significant consequences.
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 12:34:55
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☄ Helpfulby Mystic38 2014/04/26 16:18:02
* If you rely on help from the forums, don't use animated .gifs for your avatar or in your signature
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markyzno
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 13:05:24
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brundlefly If music were my living, I might not be quite so cavalier about all the web surfing and other things I do on it. But if you exercise a moderate level of caution in what you download and execute with some basic firewall and anti-virus/spyware protection in place, it's quite possible to use your all-purpose PC as a DAW without ever suffering any significant consequences.
Word! +1 I am posting here (not via wireless tho, through a switch in the studio hardwires to the router) while Sonar merrily is looping a 16 bar loop of 38 tracks and 10 busses, and this is a pro job...
Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >Sound Design on IMDB --
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Geo524
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 15:55:33
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If I recall correctly my video card is 1gb, I think? I'll have to double check on that but I believe it's 1 gig. The card has a fan on-board which some will say is a no-no but I can't even hear it running and it hasn't affected me negatively whatsoever. I installed an extra 16 GB of RAM for a total of 24. Max RAM is 32 so eventually I will be adding another stick of 8GB. In addition to the included 1 TB drive I installed 2 more 1 TB drives along with a 640 gig. Plenty of storage for my needs. My gaming PC has 6 fans with speed control. With controls set on medium it is quieter than my custom built PC which has only 3 fans. Average temps on the gaming PC (even after an all day session) haven't exceeded 23 degrees celcius. On the custom build, temps run between 38 and 44 degrees celcius after an all day session. I much prefer a desk top which is what both my recording PC's are. No high-rez mouse here. just a plain old logitech mouse and keyboard. I know most users aren't that technical. I am not a computer whiz by any means but I do know enough to do simple modifications and installs. Even with the extra added MEM and HDD's I saved a heap of money which was my initial goal and I have no complaints about performance. I think most new computers these days will perform well enough to record music. Not trying to debate anyone here just posting my experience. My gaming PC is good...
Win 10 x 64; CbB; SPlat; MixCraft 8 Pro; AMD FX4130, 3.8 GHz; DDR3 32 GB Ram; Focusrite Scarlett 18i20; SSD 1TB, 2 x 1TB and 1 x 640 GB HDD; Mackie HR624 Monitors, KRK G2 Rockit 5's, Dual HP S2331 23" MonitorsMusic and SFX http://www.radiosparx.com/georgeandmarguerite
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Mystic38
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 16:19:44
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My initial post was to refute the thought that a powerful graphics card was a bad idea. Its not. every decent graphics card has intelligent fan control... don't use the horsepower?.. fan is at idle. I run three HD monitors, and performance without an above average graphics card is unacceptable in screen refresh/redraw.. I also cannot agree at all with your perception of gaming machines. For the same horsepower a modern gaming machine is quieter, due to a larger case, liquid cooling, and intelligent fan control than an equivalent off the shelf PC. I don't know ANY gamer that does not max out amount with the highest speed RAM.. its a critical part of computer performance, ditto for hard disk performance due to the massive load files that occur at start and in game.. so both disk and ram performance are critical. I am not suggesting people buy gaming machines, mostly because they would be overpaying for a system that wont be fully utilized as the stress on a PC from a modern game far exceeds that from a DAW. Again the post was to refute the thought that a powerful graphics card was a bad idea... a mediocre graphics card however is a very terrible idea. So, onwards.... as a "recipe for success", no matter what PC someone buys, it needs to be optimized to a greater or lesser degree. Period. For the general enthusiast public, where budget is a concern, that means buying an off the shelf reasonably high spec machine and following the sensible advise in this thread. ie. dedicated use, turn off anti virus, no internet, latency optimization etc. separately, I don't understand the rack system comment. A rack system is not a recipe for success, its simply a form factor. Its what is IN the machine that matters. regards, Ian here endeth any further interest in graphics cards on my part. mine is powerful, deathly quiet and runs 3 monitors flawlessly :) Anderton
Mystic38 Cant agree with this.. a) A low end graphics card relies on the CPU for processing and system ram for memory, hence that IS bad for Sonar performance. b) High end graphics cards present the smallest possible overhead to the system. They do as much of the work as is possible. c) The amount of video processing required is determined by the monitor number, color depth, resolution, refresh rate but most importantly, the demands of the application. Having a powerful video card simply gives increased processing speed and capability to enable the application to run at its optimum rate.
I think these days, even low-end video cards have their own CPU and a decent amount of RAM. And I agree that it's most certainly possible to have a high-end gaming system that works extremely well for audio, especially if you're a savvy user. But it's not just about video; there are some major differences compared to computers integrated for audio. Noise level. This is a very big deal for me. Gaming computers often have lots of fans, and high-end gaming cards invariably have one (some of the higher-end machines have two graphics cards so there are two fans). I use an ATI video card that doesn't need a fan, and before that I used a fanless Matrox, which really helps with the S/N ratio in the studio itself. Also, good music computers typically have some kind of acoustical treatment inside the case. The boxes don't look as cool as gaming computers, but they're quieter. High-resolution mice. These have been documented to have negative effects in many audio setups. Form factor. Rack-mount gaming computers may exist, but I haven't seen any. Although many music computers are towers, serveer-type rack-mount models are available if that's what you need. Lack of RAM. Typical gaming computers have 8GB of RAM, which is fine for what most gamers need because the high-end graphics card(s) offload to their own RAM. Of course there are more costly models with extra RAM, but with music computers, the idea of having lots of RAM is standard. For heavy-duty audio where you're loading virtual instruments into RAM, 16GB is pretty much the minimum you need, and 32GB will make for a much better user experience. Of course you can expand RAM, but a lot of users don't want to have to get overly technical with a machine. Storage. Doing audio work requires lots of storage. It can be difficult for an end user to add additional internal hard drives with some gaming machines, and many ship with only 1TB or 2TB of storage in a single drive. For audio work you really need three internal drives - a system drive, a drive for audio data, and a drive for sound library storage. You can always add USB or FireWire hard drive storage, but I have four internal drives in my machine AND two external USB drives as a matter of course, not including separate backup drives. As to graphics cards, I think it depends somewhat on the usage. I have talked with people who use devices that put major trafifc on the PCI bus, like "DSP farm" boards. They tell me that some graphics cards really hog the bus. I don't know enough to verify whether that's true or not, but they seemed quite certain that can be an issue and they changed graphics cards as a result. Granted you can build your own machine, or modify a gaming machine to have the extras needed for audio work. But it's clear from some of the posts here that many users are musicians, not computer experts, and they just want to be able to pull out a credit card or write a check and get a machine. The thread title is "recipes for success," and I still believe that if they write a check to the company that makes computers specifically for music, by and large they will have a more successful experience than spending the same amount of money on a computer optimized for gaming.
HPE-580T with i7-950, 8G, 1.5T, ATI6850, Win7/64, Motu 828 III Hybrid, Motu Midi Express, Sonar Platinum, Komplete 9, Ableton Live 9 & Push 2, Melodyne Editor and other stuff, KRK VXT8 Monitors Virus Ti2 Polar, Fantom G6, Yamaha S70XS, Novation Nova, Novation Nova II, Korg MS2000, Waldorf Micro Q, NI Maschine Studio, TC-VoiceLive Rack, 2012 Gibson Les Paul Standard, 2001 Gibson Les Paul DC, 1999 Fender Am Hardtail Strat, Fender Blues Jr, Orange TH30/PPC212, Tak EF360GF, one mic, no talent.
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Anderton
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 17:52:14
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Mystic38 I run three HD monitors, and performance without an above average graphics card is unacceptable in screen refresh/redraw..
With three HD monitors, agreed...you definitely need a powerful graphics card. I also cannot agree at all with your perception of gaming machines. For the same horsepower a modern gaming machine is quieter, due to a larger case, liquid cooling, and intelligent fan control than an equivalent off the shelf PC.
I was not talking about off-the-shelf PCs, but computers integrated specifically for music. My comments in post #17 were about turnkey gaming machines I've seen advertised on the web in the same price range as computers integrated for music. I am not suggesting people buy gaming machines, mostly because they would be overpaying for a system that wont be fully utilized as the stress on a PC from a modern game far exceeds that from a DAW. Well, we're totally on the same page. If the person buys a computer optimized for music, the tradeoffs will have already been made by the systems integrator for more RAM and storage as opposed to super-high speed frame rates and such. So, onwards.... as a "recipe for success", no matter what PC someone buys, it needs to be optimized to a greater or lesser degree. Period. Again, we're on the same page - that was exactly my point. I've found that computers integrated specifically for music are better than off-the-shelf computers and more cost-effective than gaming machines. Although there are people like yourself who are capable of doing their own optimization, many (most?) DAW users are not. separately, I don't understand the rack system comment. A rack system is not a recipe for success, its simply a form factor. Its what is IN the machine that matters.
It was in the context of the difference between a computer for music and a computer for gaming. Many studios are set up with rack mount systems for various devices, so a computer can integrate with that easily. Rack systems are often set up with lights on the back, additional outlets (helpful for those external storage devices), and sometimes even voltage regulators.
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John
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 18:55:42
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2014/04/26 19:47:36
Because we are talking about hardware I recommend a very good power supply. If you get your machine off the shelf and add nothing to it you may get by with its stock power supply. If you add HDs and RAM or use lots of USB than it may pay off to look for a better power supply. Here more power is better but quality is important too. One thing you do not want is an under powered power supply. It can cause all sorts of problems that are hard to track down.
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Anderton
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 19:12:54
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John Because we are talking about hardware I recommend a very good power supply. If you get your machine off the shelf and add nothing to it you may get by with its stock power supply. If you add HDs and RAM or use lots of USB than it may pay off to look for a better power supply. Here more power is better but quality is important too. One thing you do not want is an under powered power supply. It can cause all sorts of problems that are hard to track down.
That is a REALLY excellent point. Thanks.
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Kev999
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 20:23:39
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Anderton Lack of RAM. ...For heavy-duty audio where you're loading virtual instruments into RAM, 16GB is pretty much the minimum you need, and 32GB will make for a much better user experience...
I have projects with countless numbers of virtual instruments and lots of different multisamples loaded into SampleTank, SampleTron, multiple instances of Miroslav and DimPro, plus large kits in Battery 3, and more besides. And yet I have never even come close to maxing out my meagre 6GB of RAM. I could add more, but it would be a waste of money.
SonarPlatinum∞(22.11.0.111)|Mixbus32C(4.3.19)|DigitalPerformer(9.5.1)|Reaper(5.77)FractalDesign:DefineR5|i7-6850k@4.1GHz|16GB@2666MHz-DDR4|MSI:GamingProCarbonX99a|Matrox:M9148(x2)|UAD2solo(6.5.2)|W7Ult-x64-SP1 Audient:iD22+ASP800|KRK:VXT6|+various-outboard-gear|+guitars&basses, etc. Having fun at work lately
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Geo524
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 22:42:00
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Oh yeah. The power supply. Good point indeed. I had the factory upgrade the stock 450 watt PS to a 600 watt.
Win 10 x 64; CbB; SPlat; MixCraft 8 Pro; AMD FX4130, 3.8 GHz; DDR3 32 GB Ram; Focusrite Scarlett 18i20; SSD 1TB, 2 x 1TB and 1 x 640 GB HDD; Mackie HR624 Monitors, KRK G2 Rockit 5's, Dual HP S2331 23" MonitorsMusic and SFX http://www.radiosparx.com/georgeandmarguerite
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wst3
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Re: Recipes for Sonar Success
2014/04/26 23:16:51
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Kev999 I have projects with countless numbers of virtual instruments and lots of different multisamples loaded into SampleTank, SampleTron, multiple instances of Miroslav and DimPro, plus large kits in Battery 3, and more besides. And yet I have never even come close to maxing out my meagre 6GB of RAM. Wow... care to share more? I start to hit the wall with 8GB of RAM with just four instance of Kontakt (all loaded with 16 instruments each). If I start fully purged I can get one or two more instances (again fully loaded) in place, but at that point I start to get the old CPU death-cry of snaps, crackles, and pops<G>! Well, I also have two instances of Superior 2 loaded most of the time, and it is a memory pig - albeit a great sounding memory pig! With only four instances of Kontakt, and the Superior instances I usually have room for some synths (Alchemy, FM8, Oddity, Dimension Pro, etc.) But again, I'm tripping over the line with respect to CPU utilization at that point, so I often have to print those tracks. So I'd like to hear more about how you are managing RAM and CPU...
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