kcearl
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 504
- Joined: 2009/03/23 14:05:46
- Location: Kanada
- Status: offline
Recording vocals help
well I've finally taken the plunge and tried to record some vocals..all i can say is my career may lie in instrumentals  any advice would be most welcome...but Im on a budget at the moment as Ive just really purchased everything in the last month so its not the greatest of equipment.. My voice is OKish..I can hold a tune and it has a fair range but it records very thin and weak.. Im using a sennheiser e835 and a pop screen..its a fairly large room but I try to record away from the centre of it using duvets to try and damp some of the rooms brightness/echo...I use a pop screen and have tried the phantom power in my mixer (just a cheap behringer) and the gear box plug in with a toneport I dont seem to be able to get much volume out of these with turning the gain right up and that just leaves the recording distorted, or hissy it can also sounds so thin if i dont turn the gain up, and when i try to beef it up with an EQ it doesnt seem to do much to the bass in my voice.. have you guys any homegrown suggestions or advice...it would be much appreciated
|
Mr. torture
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 439
- Joined: 2007/09/10 16:59:50
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/20 18:35:40
(permalink)
Im using a sennheiser e835 and a pop screen..its a fairly large room but I try to record away from the centre of it using duvets to try and damp some of the rooms brightness/echo...I use a pop screen and have tried the phantom power in my mixer (just a cheap behringer) and the gear box plug in with a toneport Phantom power on a dynamic mic? Not a good thing.. have you guys any homegrown suggestions or advice...it would be much appreciated Do a seach for "Compressors" on this site.
|
kcearl
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 504
- Joined: 2009/03/23 14:05:46
- Location: Kanada
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/20 18:42:48
(permalink)
didnt know that about the phantom power...eek the pre amps in gearbox come with a compressor...thats the gain Im turning up...will swat up on anything here though thanks
post edited by kcearl - 2009/04/20 18:51:19
|
ed97643
Max Output Level: -59 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1610
- Joined: 2005/06/27 10:21:39
- Location: Columbus, Ohio USA
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/20 18:49:32
(permalink)
Sing closer to the mic. This will bring in what is known as the "proximity effect", which translates in to more perceived bass frequencies being picked up by the mic. If you have the input gain up pretty high and it's output is still weak and bass-shy, it sounds like you need to be singing a bit louder and closer to the mic.
Registered Cakewalk user since 1995
|
krizrox
Max Output Level: -35 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4046
- Joined: 2003/11/23 09:49:33
- Location: Elgin, IL
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/20 18:49:59
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: kcearl
didnt know that about the phantom power...eek
the pre amps in gearbox come with a compressor...thats the gain Im turning up...will swat up on anything here though
thanks
Phantom power has absolutely no negative effect on a dynamic mic. It doesn't do anything to a dynamic mic - as you already know. It will be a problem if you use ribbon mics though. Ribbon mics can be damaged with phantom power applied. You might be suffering from a generally mediocre signal path. That mic might not be putting out much in the way of a healthy signal. Have you tried a condenser mic?
post edited by krizrox - 2009/04/20 18:58:45
Larry Kriz www.LnLRecording.com www.myspace.com/lnlrecording Sonar PE 8.5, Samplitude Pro 11, Sonic Core Scope Professional/XTC, A16 Ultra AD/DA, Intel DG965RY MOBO, Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz processor, XFX GeForce 7300 GT PCIe video card, Barracuda 750 & 320GB SATA drives, 4GB DDR Ram, Plextor DVD/CD-R burner.
|
Mr. torture
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 439
- Joined: 2007/09/10 16:59:50
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/20 18:54:49
(permalink)
Phantom power has absolutely no negative effect on a dynamic mic. My concern was more for the fact he was unaware that Phantom power is not used on dynamic mic's. He really should be at a home recording forum reading and learning the basics of recording.
|
kcearl
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 504
- Joined: 2009/03/23 14:05:46
- Location: Kanada
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/20 18:58:26
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: ed97643
Sing closer to the mic. This will bring in what is known as the "proximity effect", which translates in to more perceived bass frequencies being picked up by the mic. If you have the input gain up pretty high and it's output is still weak and bass-shy, it sounds like you need to be singing a bit louder and closer to the mic.
Im about 2 or 3 inches away from the mic...I dont really belt it out but it could be to do with my confidence, never had trouble with that before mind you ;) I will experiment more though as it'll be the mic i have to use for a wee while..
|
kcearl
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 504
- Joined: 2009/03/23 14:05:46
- Location: Kanada
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/20 19:00:03
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Mr. torture
Phantom power has absolutely no negative effect on a dynamic mic.
My concern was more for the fact he was unaware that Phantom power is not used on dynamic mic's. He really should be at a home recording forum reading and learning the basics of recording.
I maybe a bit of a newb but ive managed to get bass, rythm, lead, keyboard and drums down...I was using the phantom power as I wasnt really getting any oomph from the preamps in gear box or pod farm..
|
dariunas
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 125
- Joined: 2009/04/01 13:04:41
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/20 19:00:47
(permalink)
This caught my eye about 48v on dynamic mics as I use it all of the time on SM58s... I'm going to paste what this guy said, "Will phantom power damage dynamic or ribbon mics?
When you switch on phantom power in some mixers, phantom is applied to all the mic inputs at once. What will happen if you plug a dynamic or ribbon mic into one of those inputs? Will it be damaged by the phantom powering?
Not if the mic has a balanced output, and is wired correctly. Even if the mic is a dynamic or ribbon type, phantom will not hurt the mic.
Phantom powering applies a positive voltage to pins 2 and 3 in the mic, and the ground of the phantom supply is connected to pin 1. In a condenser mic, pins 2 and 3 are wired to the circuitry inside the mic. Phantom current entering pins 2 and 3 goes through the mic circuit, then exits out pin 1 and returns to the supply ground.
In a dynamic mic or ribbon mic, pins 2 and 3 are wired to the mic’s voice coil or ribbon. Normally, the coil or ribbon is floating from the pin 1 ground. So the circuit loop to and from the phantom supply is incomplete. No current can flow through the mic’s voice coil or ribbon if you apply phantom power. Result: no damage.
On the other hand, if one end of the voice coil or ribbon is accidentally shorted to ground inside the mic, several milliamps of current from the phantom supply will flow through the voice coil or ribbon back to the ground of the supply. This current can deform the ribbon or immobilize the mic diaphragm.
In short, if the mic has a balanced output in which the voice coil or ribbon is NOT connected to mic ground, phantom will not damage the mic. If the mic has an unbalanced output because the voice coil or ribbon IS shorted to mic ground, phantom could damage the mic.
Hope this helps...
Bruce Bartlett
Mic engineer" 
post edited by dariunas - 2009/04/20 19:10:06
|
ed97643
Max Output Level: -59 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1610
- Joined: 2005/06/27 10:21:39
- Location: Columbus, Ohio USA
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/20 19:03:02
(permalink)
Sounds good. To second what Larry said, do consider shopping for a condenser down the line. There are no "rules", but it's pretty widely accepted that condensers are typical first choices (over dynamics) for main vocal tracks. You can get deals these days, especially in the second hand market.
Registered Cakewalk user since 1995
|
kcearl
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 504
- Joined: 2009/03/23 14:05:46
- Location: Kanada
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/20 19:05:35
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: ed97643
Sounds good. To second what Larry said, do consider shopping for a condenser down the line. There are no "rules", but it's pretty widely accepted that condensers are typical first choices (over dynamics) for main vocal tracks. You can get deals these days, especially in the second hand market.
yeah I was kinda thinking this would be one of the main suggestions...I may try moving the mic around the room a bit more..ive tried moving soft fabric furniture in the corners.... sorry if this isnt the correct forum for this...its just that ive liked what ive read in here so far
|
montezuma
Max Output Level: -50 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2520
- Joined: 2004/10/07 03:44:28
- Location: Australia
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/20 23:12:35
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Mr. torture
Phantom power has absolutely no negative effect on a dynamic mic.
My concern was more for the fact he was unaware that Phantom power is not used on dynamic mic's. He really should be at a home recording forum reading and learning the basics of recording.
harrumph harrumph
|
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10654
- Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
- Location: TeXaS
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 01:03:41
(permalink)
Really, if you aren't getting good levels you need to turn up the headphone monitors. Or get more comfortable "performing" your singing. Another trick is to face your real monitors, turn them down and sing with them. A couple of things to check - make sure the bass roll off isn't on for the mic (don't know if it has it ..). Check to make sure the EQ is off on the mixer, then try adding some bass. ANd I hate to mention this, but are you singing into the front/top right spot of the mic? Just checking. Like I said, if you aren't getting volume you either aren't singing at a speaking voice volume or you've got something hooked up wrong. I doubt if the behringer has a great preamp, but it ought to work. Finally, maybe your voice just doesn't work with the mic. It ought not be as bad as you say, but sometimes ... @
post edited by AT - 2009/04/21 01:12:06
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
|
mick@itc
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
- Total Posts : 629
- Joined: 2004/04/27 18:53:49
- Location: Australia
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 01:16:35
(permalink)
An old carpenters trick...sing up close and parallel to the window, combine this with the proximity effect (sing touching the mic grill (get rid of the pop screen for a dynamic mic) and you will at least thicken the voice. Of course you can further thicken the vocal track by cloning the vox track and using pitch/shift FX by Cakewalk. try a 0.2 setting and mix in to taste. Mick Karen (RIP) used a slightly damaged (in a good way) U87 which is somewhat different to the e835
post edited by mick@itc - 2009/04/21 01:25:47
Mick from Oz. HP DV7-3008tx , Sonar 8.5 PE, Komplete 6, GPO, JABB, Ozone 4, Melodyne Studio & DNA
|
kaushal
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 204
- Joined: 2004/04/02 00:11:22
- Location: Mumbai, India
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 01:35:09
(permalink)
HI kcearl,
I would recommend you buy an MXL condensor mic. It is extremely cheap and a good condensor mic for starters. I have used it with fairly good results. Which sound card are you using? That might explain why you're getting the results that you are getting
|
Ron Vogel
Max Output Level: -69 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1074
- Joined: 2008/07/18 14:14:40
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 01:52:27
(permalink)
When I need to boost low mids/mids to add more detail I use cardboard. I grab a piece of cardboard and make a half-moon around the mic to use the early reflections. Kind of like a poor man's version of a tiled room. You have to play with it a little but it can help band-aid other problems. Kind of like singing into a can, but a really big can. Kind of a hastle to hold when you're singing and running a board though!
|
Mr. torture
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 439
- Joined: 2007/09/10 16:59:50
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 07:19:32
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: kcearl
I maybe a bit of a newb but ive managed to get bass, rythm, lead, keyboard and drums down.. Bully for you, then why need our help with something simple like recording you own voice?
I was using the phantom power as I wasnt really getting any oomph from the preamps in gear box or pod farm..
And I stand by my comments.. No offense kcearl, but there are a ton of home recording forums on the net where your questions have been answered a million times. This is a specific forum for Sonar and really should be used for issues pertaining to the program and related software / hardware. I am just trying to assist you in a way where you will receive answers that will better help you, I meant no disrespect.
|
kcearl
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 504
- Joined: 2009/03/23 14:05:46
- Location: Kanada
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 08:10:42
(permalink)
ive been using the toneport as my soundcard..but Im going to check out a condenser mic...ive seen a few threads on some pretty food value ones...
|
kcearl
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 504
- Joined: 2009/03/23 14:05:46
- Location: Kanada
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 08:14:55
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Mr. torture
ORIGINAL: kcearl
I maybe a bit of a newb but ive managed to get bass, rythm, lead, keyboard and drums down..
Bully for you, then why need our help with something simple like recording you own voice?
I was using the phantom power as I wasnt really getting any oomph from the preamps in gear box or pod farm..
And I stand by my comments..
No offense kcearl, but there are a ton of home recording forums on the net where your questions have been answered a million times. This is a specific forum for Sonar and really should be used for issues pertaining to the program and related software / hardware.
I am just trying to assist you in a way where you will receive answers that will better help you, I meant no disrespect.
No disrespect taken...what I meant was I was managing up to now you are right its a sonar forum...at least i was using sonar though :) I tried the phantom power because I though it may boost the signal...in retrospect pretty stupid but ive never recorded vocals before, in fact this is my first time using live instruments, hence my joy at recording them so easily/well, ive only ever used samples and midi instruments up till now.. Im a member of a home recording site...Ill keep rookie questions for there I just kinda prefer the standard of knowledge here.. like I said no offense, its all good advice..thanks everyone
post edited by kcearl - 2009/04/21 08:23:56
|
kcearl
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 504
- Joined: 2009/03/23 14:05:46
- Location: Kanada
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 08:24:36
(permalink)
thanks AT & Mick...after years of thinking a may be the next pavarotti the truth is starting to sink in...the mic may be part of it but i think finding my own style may be it as well...i want to do this on my own so i better start learning my limits when writing my own material...the jeff buckley impersonations will be saved for the shower lol
Ill try some different techniques today
Ive fashioned a screen Ron, just got to find a way to attach it...the room is large for an apartment and pretty stark...no curtains or much furniture..the wife may start missing the duvet at night ;)
i really think it may be me rather than the equipment now im thinking about it...plenty here have used the line 6 plug ins with good affect..it must be sonars fault!!! haha
again thanks for the advice
|
papa2004
Max Output Level: -10.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6475
- Joined: 2005/03/23 12:40:47
- Location: Southeastern U.S.
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 08:39:21
(permalink)
Im using a sennheiser e835 and a pop screen.. A pop screen with that mic doesn't make sense. The 835 might work well for "live" performances and even as an instrument amp mic in a studio but it isn't a good vocal mic for use in a studio, especially with a pop screen because then the proximity effect really kicks in...
|
strikinglyhandsome1
Max Output Level: -3 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7224
- Joined: 2006/11/15 09:21:12
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 09:03:54
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Ron Vogel
When I need to boost low mids/mids to add more detail I use cardboard. I grab a piece of cardboard and make a half-moon around the mic to use the early reflections. Kind of like a poor man's version of a tiled room. You have to play with it a little but it can help band-aid other problems. Kind of like singing into a can, but a really big can. Kind of a hastle to hold when you're singing and running a board though!
The new Roland/Sonar Vocal Booth VS-800 
|
Kalle Rantaaho
Max Output Level: -5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7005
- Joined: 2006/01/09 13:07:59
- Location: Finland
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 09:06:48
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: kcearl
the mic may be part of it but i think finding my own style may be it as well...i want to do this on my own so i better start learning my limits when writing my own material...the jeff buckley impersonations will be saved for the shower lol
You obviously have what it takes to develop, because you so quickly adapted this attitude. Especially with young men, often/usually the biggest obstacle in the way of creating good vocal stuff is a false idea of ones personal character as a singer. Some never accept the fact that their voice isn't ever going to sound like Bruce Dickinson (or whatever they like), and waste precious years fighting the windmills instead of creating something that becomes them. As a youngster I damaged my vocal chords with wrong techniques and too long training sessions. I still haven't gotten my falsetto back (after 35 years), but I'm reasonably happy with my expressive, semi-rockish baritone.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
|
papa2004
Max Output Level: -10.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6475
- Joined: 2005/03/23 12:40:47
- Location: Southeastern U.S.
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 09:16:09
(permalink)
Perhaps the most useless response ever posted in these forums... ORIGINAL: strikinglyhandsome1
ORIGINAL: Ron Vogel
When I need to boost low mids/mids to add more detail I use cardboard. I grab a piece of cardboard and make a half-moon around the mic to use the early reflections. Kind of like a poor man's version of a tiled room. You have to play with it a little but it can help band-aid other problems. Kind of like singing into a can, but a really big can. Kind of a hastle to hold when you're singing and running a board though!
The new Roland/Sonar Vocal Booth VS-800
|
strikinglyhandsome1
Max Output Level: -3 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7224
- Joined: 2006/11/15 09:21:12
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 09:20:17
(permalink)
|
papa2004
Max Output Level: -10.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6475
- Joined: 2005/03/23 12:40:47
- Location: Southeastern U.S.
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 11:38:58
(permalink)
|
donhearl
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 380
- Joined: 2005/08/09 14:28:01
- Location: Nashville
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 11:50:00
(permalink)
Actually, the e835 is a nice microphone and I don't think you should have any problems with the MIC itself. It's a good mic. The issue may be with gain staging and vocal technique. Use any proximity effect (which will be minimal) to your advantage.
Many great vox are recorded with handheld dynamic mics. I just finished a session the other night where the only thing for the track that worked was a beat up Beta 58.
regards,
|
kcearl
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 504
- Joined: 2009/03/23 14:05:46
- Location: Kanada
- Status: offline
|
musicroom
Max Output Level: -51 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2421
- Joined: 2004/04/26 22:31:02
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 14:46:05
(permalink)
Hey Kcearl, Some good tips here and some impatience coming from a few. But recording is an art no matter how much technology changes. And - if I recall - my first vox take that I recorded was disappointing. Follow the these tips, learn from other forums and or books - and - experiment. Who knows, in just a short time you may discover a great method that not only works for you - but that you can help others with on this forum. Here is a link to the techniques forum that has some interesting vox discussion. http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1697247
Dave Songs___________________________________ Desktop: Platinum / RME Multiface II / Purrfect Audio DAW I7-3770 / 16 GB RAM / Win 10 Pro / Remote Laptop i7 6500U / 12GB RAM / RME Babyface
|
musicroom
Max Output Level: -51 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2421
- Joined: 2004/04/26 22:31:02
- Status: offline
RE: Recording vocals help
2009/04/21 14:48:20
(permalink)
Goofy and useless unless your were going for a laugh. If that was the case - you win. I laughed. :)
Dave Songs___________________________________ Desktop: Platinum / RME Multiface II / Purrfect Audio DAW I7-3770 / 16 GB RAM / Win 10 Pro / Remote Laptop i7 6500U / 12GB RAM / RME Babyface
|