scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/16 01:28:39
(permalink)
Freeze HD™ or Bounce HD™ although the check box in the dialog should probably say something like Upsample or Oversample and leave the HD stuff to marketing. Make sure to suggest to Noel it should be a slam dunk taking a couple lines of code. Would it need to be limited to 96kHz?
post edited by scook - 2014/06/16 01:37:32
|
SvenArne
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2719
- Joined: 2007/01/31 12:51:29
- Location: Trondheim, Norway
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/16 02:15:15
(permalink)
Anderton
I think you may have come up with my favorite kind of idea
Glad to help! I'll take my coffee mug now, thank you 
|
Tom Riggs
Max Output Level: -57.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1752
- Joined: 2003/11/08 22:47:26
- Location: Displaced Kansan living in Philippines
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/16 02:26:52
(permalink)
SvenArne your suggestion automates what I described as my process. Change sample rate to 96>export audio>change back to 48>import audio into new track.
Craig I think a great term for this could be "Upsample Bounce to Track" or "HD Bounce to Track".
i7-3770k OC at 4.5Ghz, asus p8z77-m, 16g g.skill aries 1600 c9 ram, Noctua d-14 cooler, RME HDSPe Raydat, Motu FastLane, Nvidea GTX 980 ti 6G, windows 7 and 8.1 pro x64. Sonar Platinum and x3e currently installed My Music My YouTube
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
.
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/10/04 22:41:45
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/16 10:19:26
(permalink)
mike_mccue
This thread is a mind bender. I have to keep reminding myself that some guys can make beautiful music with a Yamaha DX7.
Yes, and you can also listen to music on any speakers capable of converting electrical energy into air. But at least to my ears, this kind of oversampling is mostly about eliminating something unpleasant as opposed to "improving" the sound. To use a photographic analogy, it's like removing the dust from a photo to make it more colorful instead of bumping up the saturation to make it more colorful. Once you've heard the difference this can make to a project, there's no reason not to do it any more than you'd want to keep the dust on a photograph.
|
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6585
- Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/16 11:31:17
(permalink)
Anderton
Thinking about it some more...I think you're right with it being more like a super-freeze; I think it might be closer to super-rendering, operationally speaking.
Seems the best way to handle this would be that upon invoking "super-render" or whatever it would be called, it would do the 44>96>44 render and then archive what it is you rendered (amp sim track, virtual instrument, or whatever). That way you could return to the track if needed, but it wouldn't be influencing the CPU.
Another advantage: You wouldn't need to take a CPU hit while recording from enabling oversampling on your plug-ins. It's like you could always record in "draft" mode to keep the latency down, then when you're ready to mix, do the super-render trick to end up with a higher-fidelity audio file, which wouldn't stress your computer out much anyway,
Now I REALLY must talk to the Bakers about this.........!!!
It doesn't have to be just rendering. I seem to remember in past discussions we talked about how it would be great if Sonar had a setting to do oversampling at the FX bin level.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
.
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/10/04 22:42:05
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
.
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/10/04 22:42:17
|
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6585
- Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/16 12:20:06
(permalink)
mike_mccue
Hi drew,
Can you elaborate on how oversampling is helpful with hard limiting?
It seems to me that the duration of a full cycle of 10kHz sound is approximately 0.1ms (with variances depending on the speed of sound)
I think I have an idea why having high sample rates for something like a 0.1ms attack time on a limiter can reduce distortion at the higher frequencies, but you do a really good job of explaining stuff like this.
Can you take a stab at making it seem sensible to a knob twiddler like me?
Thanks.
You can think of compression/limiting as existing between the extremes of slowly adjusting the volume of the peaks by hand to just clipping them off. The closer you get to clipping-like behavior, the more distortion you get. And the speed of sound has no effect on cycle time. Wavelength yes, but cycle time no. 
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
.
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/10/04 22:42:29
|
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6585
- Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/16 12:44:07
(permalink)
mike_mccuehow to differentiate between the distortion you are committing with intention to distortion that would occur without intention when you use a setting such as 0.1ms in a hard limiter.
You can differentiate with the Nyquist frequency.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
.
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/10/04 22:42:44
|
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6585
- Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/16 14:35:18
(permalink)
Aliasing.
But for a lookahead peak limiter/loudness maximizer thingy oversampling does help let it see intersample peaks. [edit] And I believe most of those kinds of plugs already do oversample - I think it's more general purpose comps set for aggressive limiting that might have a problem. [/edit]
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
.
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/10/04 22:42:54
|
BJN
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 222
- Joined: 2013/10/09 07:52:48
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/20 20:16:00
(permalink)
------------------------------------------------------- Magic: when you feel inspired to create which in turn inspires more creation. And the corollary: if magic happens inspiration might flog it to death with numerous retakes. Bart Nettle
|
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5321
- Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
- Location: Maryland, USA
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/21 06:02:39
(permalink)
Um... as both a physicist and nuclear engineer I could not get too deep into that video before the comment on temperature made me close it. Heat transfer is universal, and a "bubble" being neutrally bouyant in a fluid is far fetched (especially with changing temperature). Be wary of "science" such as this one... "cold fusion" began a similar way and we all know how that one ended.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
|
BJN
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 222
- Joined: 2013/10/09 07:52:48
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/21 08:49:52
(permalink)
You could very well be right. There are a few of the same and the intro debases the actual documentary. But the heat is an implosion (blue) and not radiant,(red). "Sonar"luminous is blue light produced by sound vibration above audible range. to see it reproduced more easily https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuDyy4MTosA
post edited by BJN - 2014/06/21 09:10:43
------------------------------------------------------- Magic: when you feel inspired to create which in turn inspires more creation. And the corollary: if magic happens inspiration might flog it to death with numerous retakes. Bart Nettle
|
shawn@trustmedia.tv
Max Output Level: -54 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2136
- Joined: 2008/12/06 09:41:18
- Location: Hastings, MN
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/22 04:43:13
(permalink)
I believe another benefit of using 96khz is your midi VST audio recording latency goes down because it's based off your audio clock cycles...I believe that to be correct. -Shawn (I use 44khz just for space reasons)
Studio SONAR X3. Axiom 25 midi controller, DUNE 2, Producer Content, Good Times, Bandlab Mojo 
|
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Cakewalk Staff
- Total Posts : 6475
- Joined: 2003/11/03 17:22:50
- Location: Boston, MA, USA
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/22 19:48:07
(permalink)
For the same buffer size the latency is lower at higher sample rates. The reason is very simple.
Assume you are using a buffer size of 64 samples.
At 48K this corresponds to a latency of 64000 / 48000 = 1.3 msec
At 96K this same buffer corresponds to a latency of 64000 / 96000 = 0.6 msec which is half that at 48K
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Remember that 96K TH2 thread? I Just had my mind blown, big-time
2014/06/22 19:51:03
(permalink)
shawn@trustmedia.tv
I believe another benefit of using 96khz is your midi VST audio recording latency goes down because it's based off your audio clock cycles...I believe that to be correct. -Shawn (I use 44khz just for space reasons)
That's true in theory, and often in practice but not always. If 96 stresses out the computer too much, you may need to increase the number of sample buffers, so you sort of end back where you started.
|